Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 72)

Anyone who can do a century on the trainer can ride 112 on the road no problem!  Props to you, man!

Sweet results 3Aims!  Don't let that little devil on your left shoulder have too loud of a voice... but I trust you know your body and are also listening to that angel on your right saying "be conservative -- nothing to undo all the hard work we've done faster than an injury" and pacing/recovering from your racing efforts correctly.

leopard8996 - 2011-03-26 11:37 PM

spudone - 2011-03-26 6:40 PM

I think the short steep hills add a tricky mental element to CdA.  The top is always in sight.  So it's very tempting sometimes, to just stand up and "get it over with".  And a lot of people do exactly that.

It takes a lot of discipline to get in your granny gear every time and let people pass you on the way up - or at least it does for me.  You have to keep reminding yourself that you still have another loop.  Or that you still have a marathon to run.

English Point is really the only major hill you can't see the top of. It's three progressive climbs and there are many people walking it on the 2nd loop. Since I'm all about the fun I just spin into granny on every climb and then bomb down the other side in my biggest gear There are some fun descents at CDA!

At what mile marker (approx) would this be?

TriRSquared - 2011-03-27 8:18 AM

leopard8996 - 2011-03-26 11:37 PM

spudone - 2011-03-26 6:40 PM

I think the short steep hills add a tricky mental element to CdA.  The top is always in sight.  So it's very tempting sometimes, to just stand up and "get it over with".  And a lot of people do exactly that.

It takes a lot of discipline to get in your granny gear every time and let people pass you on the way up - or at least it does for me.  You have to keep reminding yourself that you still have another loop.  Or that you still have a marathon to run.

English Point is really the only major hill you can't see the top of. It's three progressive climbs and there are many people walking it on the 2nd loop. Since I'm all about the fun I just spin into granny on every climb and then bomb down the other side in my biggest gear There are some fun descents at CDA!

At what mile marker (approx) would this be?

The big hill on English Point starts just before mile 26 and ends just before mile 27.  It can be broken up into thirds.  First third is very steep (guess = 10%+, the middle third is more of a false flat (guess = 3%), and then the final thrid kicks up again but not as bad as the start (guess = 6%). 

Would love to discuss cadence if anyone has any opinions!! I find that on the trainer it's easier for me to hold higher cadence. I aim for about 90 for basic training and intervals. I do spin-ups a few times a week (2 min. at 90, 2 min. at 100, 1 min. at 110). However, I find on the road that over the course of a long ride, my cadence tends to drift down to the 80-ish range. Even early in a ride, holding 90-ish can feel tricky for me, and I find that the gearing is hard to figure out. Like I may be holding a 93 cadence which feels a bit fast (too easy gear) so I go to a bigger gear and I'm right around 80-82. It seems like a big difference between two gears.

Is there a "conventional wisdom" about which is better? Is it all personal preference? Cycling is my weakest of the three sports for sure. I also know I am a major slow-twitch person (I swam in college and we did ear- blood lactate testing and I was the slowest-twitch of the slow, so I know it's how I'm built... not for speed, but just to endure, ha!).

I know that if I had a PM it could answer these questions, but it's not something I'll be getting any time soon. I do use a CT for indoor riding, and I find it interesting that my HR always matches up perfectly with my zones (based on Coggen/Allen numbers), so I use some HR and lots of RPE when I'm out on the road (mostly RPE, but HR usually backs that up quite nicely).

Anyway, if anyone has any opinions on this I'd love to hear 'em! Thanks!!

Lots of fun.  I paced my wife for her first race ever.  Decent weather and we crossed at 1:55:55.  We beat her goal of two hours and I got a nice easy recovery run the day after my all out Olympic.  I need a beer.     

oh 3AIMS I thought you were racing it hard. a fun run is different.... nice work

My trainer ride lasted 4:45 for 100.32 then a 4.6 sub 8 run. My taint noticed it haha

http://tpks.ws/F4Lg

Only one other interested in a BT IMCDA hat?

Ha!  I knew the run would be slow so I hammered the Olympic more than most would recommend.  I think the run today may have loosened up my muscles a bit as I don't feel as sore as this morning.  Not bad for almost 15 hours of training and a race this week. 

Great questions Kyla - and I think I have mostly good news for you.

In general I recommend you self-select cadence based on what feels right, not based on any preconcieved suposedly most efficient number.  Don't worry about how slow-twitchy you are, etc.  Conventional wisdon only provides a range (I'll say 75-105ish)... but people that try to nail you down to an exact number are doing you a disservice.  As long as you are in that huge range, you likely have nothing to worry about.

I like your cadence drills... you'll want to practice being comfortable at a range of cadences... because sometimes gearing/grade won't let you choose the one you want.  But in general just choose the gear that *FEELS* the best (or the one where you are going the fastest given your perceived effort) and don't worry about your cadence.  Pay attention to your spedometer at various cadences... it will likely tell you whether you are a lower, mid, or higher cadence person.  Also be aware that the number may shift over time (in my example, the more I rode the faster my preferred cadence became - I think this is about pedaling efficiency/coordination, not increased aerobic fitness.  However, I know some people who moved the opposite direction as they spent more and more time with their bikes).

You can reduce the jump between gears by having compact front (50/34) chainrings, and a tighter cassette (e.g., 11-23 has fewer jumps than 12-26 which has fewer jumps than 11-28).  Of course you'll need to make sure you don't run out of gears on the climbs, which is why I wouldn't recommend the 11-23 for most riders on hilly IM courses.

I tried to run some numbers for you at Sheldon Brown's Gear Calculator, but it doesn't seem to be working at the moment: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Bottom line (for cassettes)the jump from 50x17 to 50x15 (there is no 16 tooth gear on n 11-28 cassette) will be more than 50x17 to 50x16 you could do on an 11/23 cassette.  Likewise (for chainrings), the jump from 54x17 to 54x16 will be greater than 50x17 to 50x16.  Biggest jump of all would be 54x17  to 54x15 (bigger chainrings + wider spacing cassette).

The smaller the chainrings and the tighter the cassette, the less of a difference you will notice when changing from one gear to another, and the more you will be able to ride your preferred cadence.

Josh

PS - at these distances, we are all endurance athletes... how you pedal will have nothing to do with your ratio/distribution of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscles.  That's true even in a sprint triathlon, let alone IM.  You don't use fast-twitch muscles for hours at a time.

That was a nice gut check (and pace)!!!  Nothing like the numb feeling of hitting the pavement after a ride.  I wish I had someone like you to train with on a regular basis.  Doing everything on my own is getting boring.      

Nice training ride.  I don't know if I could do it for that long before going insane. 

Thanks so much -- good food for thought, and also good reminders not to obsess. Sometimes there isn't much else to think about when you're out there alone for hours on end, and I do try to notice speed vs. RPE with different cadences and gears. Right now I am doing outside rides on the road bike, but now that the weather is cooperating a bit it's time to throw the road bike on the trainer and get the fancy tri bike outside (different gearing, double vs. triple, etc.).

Funny... Big Bro edited out the word "pr*#k" in my post (ear-pr*#ck). Never even thought about it being a banned word, ha!!

Hope everyone had a great training weekend. We're getting there, peeps!!!

I’m on my taper for Ocean Side 70.3 this Saturday.  I love it because I feel like a slug and it’s getting me all ramped so race day I can hit it hard and hopefully PR.  We’ll see.

Whoa - wait - back up!  People are walking their bikes up the hill on the second loop!

Dear God!  I was finally feeling good about my training but reading this has me planning on calling my coach tomorrow to cry!

You've got a coach and you've already put in close to 24 hours on the bike this month.  I do not think that you will be walking your bike.

But, yes.  Some people have to walk their bikes on some of the hills.  Lack of training, bike mechanical issues, or just no paying attention and finding yourself in too big of a gear.  It happens.

Just purchased the full wetsuit.  Being from FL my sleeveless has been just fine for 99% of races (heck, most races we don't even wear wetsuits).  I took it in the gulf this winter when the water temps were close to what the lake will be.  Oh my!

Full wetsuit on order!

I swam my first race this weekend in a full suit.  Hated it.  I did a pathetic 28 minute 1500 meters and it felt like I was dragging a freaking dead body on my shoulders.  If CdA was not such a cold swim I would go sleeveless.  I actually know someone that did CdA in 2010 in a sleeveless.  Hmmmm.

I punished myself today at lunch during my masters class. I was really mad about my performance in Austin.  Swim rank, 25th, bike rank, 4th, run rank, 14th.  I've got to get faster in the water.         

Something is wrong here.  Your full suit, if it fits properly, should not feel that restrictive.  Don't settle for "that's just what a full sleeve suit feels like" -- simply not true.

I suspect that 90% of these people would not be walking if they had a compact front and a rear cassette with at least a 25 tooth gear.  Proper gearing IS worth the mental energy now (unlike obsessing about cadence).  Many people won't want to swap from a standard to compact crank because of the cost, but you can get an new ultegra 12-27 cassette for $70 online... 105 is even less and fine, imho.

Okay I ran some numbers.

The jump from 50x17 to 50x16 (@ 90rpm) is 21.3mph to 22.6mph... or about 5%.

The jump from 54x17 to 54x15 (@90rpm) is 23.0mph to 26.0mph... or about 15%.

I used the best example of a compact chainring and tight cassette for the first example, and a standard chainring and high-range cassette for the second example.  But as you can see... it's going to be much easier to find a comfortable gear making a 5% jump than a 15% jump between those two gears.

Because you might need those "granny gears" for climbing some of the hills, many of you will have to put up with a high-range cassette even though it isn't ideal in terms of the jumps between gears.  Because of that, my recommended setup for almost all riders (I'm a sub 5:30 rider on the harder IMLP course and it's what I used) is a compact front with the high-range cassette.  The compact minimizes the jump between gears even when the cassette skips a number or two... and I contend that you'll never need more than a 50x11 gear during an IM anyway... which at 100rpms is 36.5mph  (just tuck in your aerobars and coast at that point).