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2013-04-02 10:31 PM
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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Artemis - 2013-04-03 10:03 AM
TriAya - 2013-04-02 3:21 PM
kgore - 2013-04-03 2:19 AM

TriAya - 2013-04-02 12:12 PM  personally, I'd tell him you're not ready to say goodbye to him yet.

I told him that last night. That, and also if he needed a new heart, he should totally go all exotic, like for a baboon heart, as then I would be uniquely qualified as a zookeeper to take care of him; he said he would prefer a gorilla! Laughing

In completely random news, my ex-mother-in-law was Baby Fay's chief nurse.

Dude...I always forget you were married.

Yeah. Me too!

Technically not married, but I still have to check "divorced" on official stuff for legal reasons.



2013-04-02 10:47 PM
in reply to: #4683982

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Muskrat37 - 2013-04-03 3:37 AM
TriAya - 2013-04-02 9:02 AM

Clipless pedals transfer pressure better because your foot is locked in and the bike shoe sole is stiff.

Upstroke has nothing to do with it (power simply isn't generated then) nor with running off the bike. The mental imagery or physical feeling of a locked-in circular stroke usually means you are "unweighting" the rising foot well so that the downward-pushing foot isn't having to propel the bike AND lift up the weight of the other foot.

Tri bikes are better for running off the bike because your position on them decreases wind resistance, and you therefore use less energy to go the same speed as you would on a road bike.

While this may be true, it is also true that the tri bike uses your hamstrings more than a road bike, therefore saving some of the quads for the run. Whether you are just "unweighting" the back foot, or actually pulling up with it (which engages the glutes)...the end result is the same; you are not utilizing as much energy from the quad muscle to push down the pedal on the downstroke. Saving energy in all ways possible (efficient pedal stroke AND aero dynamics) is beneficial for the run.  

This article on BT specifically states that:

"The forward position (of the tri bike) requires more energy from the hamstrings when pedaling. Hopefully this will conserve some energy for the quadriceps when the bike leg is over and it’s time to run. We also can’t overlook the aerodynamic benefits of an efficient aero position."

I notice my hamstrings get a lot more work when I am in Aero for a long time.

That is my understanding, and experience.

It *could* be true, but there isn't any evidence for it. Ex phys evidence is very hard to establish, admittedly, for many reasons, but that's the nature of the beast.

"Hopefully this will conserve some energy for the quadriceps" that's either crappy science (not the least of which is the word "hopefully"--either it is or isn't, might or might not be, but say it) or an attempt to put it into layperson's terms which went badly.

I hate to say it, but most of the articles on BT are pretty crappy, if they have anything to do with ex phys or training justifications. For that kind of info, it is much better to do searches on ST and read the articles there, or links from posts. Best yet is to read the top-acknowledged people in the individual sports--and by that, I do NOT mean people like Joe Friel.

2013-04-02 11:12 PM
in reply to: #4651276

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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
More T.I.T.S. today. Then used new Brooks on the treadmill tonight to check them out before trail this weekend. No issues with a short run and will use them again on Thursday just to be sure. Yay!
2013-04-02 11:13 PM
in reply to: #4651276

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED

These are really good and fairly accessible resources regarding tri/road bikes from two of the top bike guys in the world--Tom Demerly (he may be somewhat socially awkward, but no one would argue that he doesn't, above most people, thoroughly understand bikes and cycling) and David Greenfield. They've fit countless top triathletes--world champs, Olympic champs, etc.

The nice thing is that they also do respond to personal e-mails about what they've written. Especially if you tell them YANTI sentcha

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/difference.shtml

http://www.elitebicycles.com/tutorials/ChooseBike.pdf

Some of the stuff Dan Empfield (head ST dude) has written is good too; I just don't have it at hand at it tends to be a lot more technical. He also invented the triathlon bike .

2013-04-02 11:20 PM
in reply to: #4684446

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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
TriAya - 2013-04-02 9:02 AM

It *could* be true, but there isn't any evidence for it. Ex phys evidence is very hard to establish, admittedly, for many reasons, but that's the nature of the beast.

"Hopefully this will conserve some energy for the quadriceps" that's either crappy science (not the least of which is the word "hopefully"--either it is or isn't, might or might not be, but say it) or an attempt to put it into layperson's terms which went badly.

I hate to say it, but most of the articles on BT are pretty crappy, if they have anything to do with ex phys or training justifications. For that kind of info, it is much better to do searches on ST and read the articles there, or links from posts. Best yet is to read the top-acknowledged people in the individual sports--and by that, I do NOT mean people like Joe Friel.

 

So Yanti, is what you are saying that most of the stuff that we read (like hitting the wall at the distance of your longest run) is B*llsh!t? Surprised

I am learning that this is more and more the case and often even scientific studies can be quoted out of context to support the view point of the person quoting it.



Edited by StaceyK 2013-04-02 11:25 PM
2013-04-02 11:32 PM
in reply to: #4651276

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Wading through the BS is often as hard as the training. And shoot, lots of different things work for lots of different people. Sigh, it makes my head spin.


2013-04-02 11:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED

So maybe i shouldn't feel guilty about eating a hamburger, fries and a sunday for lunch then, cause maybe all the stuff saying that it is bad for me is just BS.

Surely thats what you mean and even if it isn't that is how I am going to chose to interpret it  

2013-04-02 11:44 PM
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Science Nerd
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
StaceyK - 2013-04-03 12:38 AM

So maybe i shouldn't feel guilty about eating a hamburger, fries and a sunday for lunch then, cause maybe all the stuff saying that it is bad for me is just BS.

Surely thats what you mean and even if it isn't that is how I am going to chose to interpret it  

This is why I like you.  

2013-04-02 11:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
StaceyK - 2013-04-02 9:38 PM

So maybe i shouldn't feel guilty about eating a hamburger, fries and a sunday for lunch then, cause maybe all the stuff saying that it is bad for me is just BS.

Surely thats what you mean and even if it isn't that is how I am going to chose to interpret it  

hahaha! I just heard timer go off for my veggie pizza. Guilt?...Dinner is served

2013-04-02 11:53 PM
in reply to: #4684466

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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED

Asalzwed - 2013-04-02 9:32 PM Wading through the BS is often as hard as the training. And shoot, lots of different things work for lots of different people. Sigh, it makes my head spin.

Scene from Exorcist? Sealed

2013-04-03 12:00 AM
in reply to: #4684313

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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
cdban66 - 2013-04-03 10:20 AM

ponderingfox - 2013-04-02 8:05 PM I don't know if anyone else thinks of this, but between all of us, we average more than 2,000 posts per month here in the pod.

A chatty group, to say the least.

So do you think that we can get to part 4 before they start the April Mentor groups?

By the way I want in if you will have me again, I need to be able to pick everyone's brain to massively improve my running in our off season. I also need to be able to read all your great race reports and information to keep me motivated while it is raining and freezing cold here. I say that and it has still been in the high 80s and low 90s for the last week and will be for the rest of this week. Thankfully it is much cooler at night though.



2013-04-03 12:12 AM
in reply to: #4651276

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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Oh, wow...almost to 100 again? And I haven't even seen a few people in here for 2-3 weeks.
2013-04-03 12:26 AM
in reply to: #4684446

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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
TriAya - 2013-04-02 8:47 PM
Muskrat37 - 2013-04-03 3:37 AM
TriAya - 2013-04-02 9:02 AM

Clipless pedals transfer pressure better because your foot is locked in and the bike shoe sole is stiff.

Upstroke has nothing to do with it (power simply isn't generated then) nor with running off the bike. The mental imagery or physical feeling of a locked-in circular stroke usually means you are "unweighting" the rising foot well so that the downward-pushing foot isn't having to propel the bike AND lift up the weight of the other foot.

Tri bikes are better for running off the bike because your position on them decreases wind resistance, and you therefore use less energy to go the same speed as you would on a road bike.

While this may be true, it is also true that the tri bike uses your hamstrings more than a road bike, therefore saving some of the quads for the run. Whether you are just "unweighting" the back foot, or actually pulling up with it (which engages the glutes)...the end result is the same; you are not utilizing as much energy from the quad muscle to push down the pedal on the downstroke. Saving energy in all ways possible (efficient pedal stroke AND aero dynamics) is beneficial for the run.  

This article on BT specifically states that:

"The forward position (of the tri bike) requires more energy from the hamstrings when pedaling. Hopefully this will conserve some energy for the quadriceps when the bike leg is over and it’s time to run. We also can’t overlook the aerodynamic benefits of an efficient aero position."

I notice my hamstrings get a lot more work when I am in Aero for a long time.

That is my understanding, and experience.

It *could* be true, but there isn't any evidence for it. Ex phys evidence is very hard to establish, admittedly, for many reasons, but that's the nature of the beast.

"Hopefully this will conserve some energy for the quadriceps" that's either crappy science (not the least of which is the word "hopefully"--either it is or isn't, might or might not be, but say it) or an attempt to put it into layperson's terms which went badly.

I hate to say it, but most of the articles on BT are pretty crappy, if they have anything to do with ex phys or training justifications. For that kind of info, it is much better to do searches on ST and read the articles there, or links from posts. Best yet is to read the top-acknowledged people in the individual sports--and by that, I do NOT mean people like Joe Friel.

Good to know.  I wasn't particularly impressed with this particular article either.

Maybe the real advantage to a tri bike is that they look cool.  I like mine for that reason.. 

As always Yanti - I bow to your knowledge.  I am very new to this sport, and learning as I go.

2013-04-03 12:57 AM
in reply to: #4684471

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
StaceyK - 2013-04-03 11:38 AM

So maybe i shouldn't feel guilty about eating a hamburger, fries and a sunday for lunch then, cause maybe all the stuff saying that it is bad for me is just BS.

Surely thats what you mean and even if it isn't that is how I am going to chose to interpret it  

hamburger, check. you need the iron ... no cheese though, calcium inhibits iron absorption. ditto for caffeine, so Coke no, sundae IF NOT MADE FROM DAIRY (most fast foods are non-dairy frozen concoctions) or "milk"shake yes.

fries are made from potatoes which are a vegetable. lots of tomato sauce on burger and fries - vit C which helps iron absorption

AND POP TARTS ARE FRUIT it says "real fruit" on the box.

2013-04-03 1:01 AM
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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Muskrat37 - 2013-04-03 12:26 PM

Good to know.  I wasn't particularly impressed with this particular article either.

Maybe the real advantage to a tri bike is that they look cool.  I like mine for that reason.. 

As always Yanti - I bow to your knowledge.  I am very new to this sport, and learning as I go.

Never underestimate this important factor. Would you drive a Lamborghini at 50mph in a 70mph zone? Also, I'd just feel stupid going REALLY REALLY slowly on a tri bike with an aero helmet on. (Not that I haven't done it)

Certain colors are also faster.

I actually don't know shyte. I just know WHO does know their shyte

2013-04-03 1:07 AM
in reply to: #4684481

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
4agoodlife - 2013-04-03 11:53 AM

Asalzwed - 2013-04-02 9:32 PM Wading through the BS is often as hard as the training. And shoot, lots of different things work for lots of different people. Sigh, it makes my head spin.

Scene from Exorcist? Sealed

Nah, that's just how she is normally

There's a crapton of BS everywhere; nature of life. BT's slowly making the transition from what it was--a bunch of friends who got together and started a triathlon forum for beginners--to what it is now, which is the world's biggest online triathlon club/site/info/whatever with many premier coaches and athletes posting and writing. But it's a messy transition and a lot of the "old" information is still there. And it's not like it's going to get deleted, which is fine. I mean, even Runner's World or Triathlon Mag don't "retract" or delete old articles; they just write new ones.



2013-04-03 1:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Hey all, sorry I have not been around a lot. Things have been crazy here. I finish my first Masters class on Friday and should have an A, I am in my 3rd week of my second class, not doing super stellar with the research for the paper. Work has been 50-ish hours so not a lot of training but at least I have gotten some Army PT in during the past couple weeks.

Pikatti the pup is doing good. He is getting big, turned 11 wks this past Monday. He is almost house broke, but occasionally I do not hear him whimper to go out to go potty so we have accidents. Overall, he is doing good.

I worked a couple things out at work so I wi get more training in. I should be able to get at least 4 days a week in during the week. The pool on post opened back up so I am looking forward to swimming at lunch again. I have been skipping Masters Swim due to work and Pikatti.

I am sure I missed a lot, but I am also sure there will be more to come from this group. I am hoping to be able to check in more over the next couple of weeks, 7 wks before I leave Alaska.
2013-04-03 5:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED

jbwills - 2013-04-03 2:45 AM Hey all, sorry I have not been around a lot. Things have been crazy here. I finish my first Masters class on Friday and should have an A, I am in my 3rd week of my second class, not doing super stellar with the research for the paper. Work has been 50-ish hours so not a lot of training but at least I have gotten some Army PT in during the past couple weeks.

Pikatti the pup is doing good. He is getting big, turned 11 wks this past Monday. He is almost house broke, but occasionally I do not hear him whimper to go out to go potty so we have accidents. Overall, he is doing good.

I worked a couple things out at work so I wi get more training in. I should be able to get at least 4 days a week in during the week. The pool on post opened back up so I am looking forward to swimming at lunch again. I have been skipping Masters Swim due to work and Pikatti.

I am sure I missed a lot, but I am also sure there will be more to come from this group. I am hoping to be able to check in more over the next couple of weeks, 7 wks before I leave Alaska.

DUUUUUUDE!!!! It is so good to see you. I hope all is well, at work, in training, and most of all, in life in general.

2013-04-03 5:34 AM
in reply to: #4684466

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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED

Asalzwed - 2013-04-03 12:32 AM Wading through the BS is often as hard as the training. And shoot, lots of different things work for lots of different people. Sigh, it makes my head spin.

This I find especially true. Read lots, ask questions, try all different things and listen to your body. It is tough to figure out what works for you. I am 2+ years into this and am finally STARTING to get comfortable with some stuff. I have a long way to go and hopefully a long time to get there. 

2013-04-03 6:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Artemis - 2013-04-02 11:08 PM

Update on Jen:

1. My mom is visiting this week!  Little E is in heaven; she loves "ga-ga" so she's been spending tons of time with her.  I'm off this week just hanging out.  Lots of park visits, walks, etc. 

2. I went running today. Ran for 19 minutes (1.63 miles) and ran the whole time.  

3. Bike stuff is up on eBay. Right now it's up to $870 or so, which is about 1/3 of the purchase price of the new bike.

1. Yeah!

2. Double Yeah!!

3. Triple Yeah!!!

All good stuff. Keep running and having fun while mom is there, it sounds like ya'll are enjoying the time together.

2013-04-03 6:40 AM
in reply to: #4684457

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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
TriAya - 2013-04-03 12:13 AM

These are really good and fairly accessible resources regarding tri/road bikes from two of the top bike guys in the world--Tom Demerly (he may be somewhat socially awkward, but no one would argue that he doesn't, above most people, thoroughly understand bikes and cycling) and David Greenfield. They've fit countless top triathletes--world champs, Olympic champs, etc.

The nice thing is that they also do respond to personal e-mails about what they've written. Especially if you tell them YANTI sentcha

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/difference.shtml

http://www.elitebicycles.com/tutorials/ChooseBike.pdf

Some of the stuff Dan Empfield (head ST dude) has written is good too; I just don't have it at hand at it tends to be a lot more technical. He also invented the triathlon bike .

Where is Tom now? He was one of those polarizing folks here, but it was apparent he loves the sport and has a pretty deep knowledge base.



2013-04-03 7:05 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED

OK, so Yanti's comment about BT changing from what it was to what it will become got me thinking. Some of ya'll have been here a while, others of us, not so much. But, we all got here and for some reason stuck around. I stick around because of people and the information they share. So, here come the questions:

Who was the first person you interacted with? I lurked for quite some time, and I finally posted in the "Introduce Yourself" forum and heard back from Yanti almost immediately. I was quite taken with her kindness, and really, the kindness of many posters here. After a bit of wading through the "BS" I started to figure out who was worth learning from.

Have you met any other BTer's IRL? I have met cwpeters at a number of races, since we are in the same area. Also, I had the opportunity to watch fellow Manatee Ann-Marie race in Rev3 Venice this year. That was a neat experience, but I had to leave before she finished, so I still haven't actually met her. Unfinished business for me, but it may happen this year at that race.

What is the best piece of information you've gotten here? I have to admit, mine is actually 2 things. Scout7 wrote often that you should "Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard" and it is something that I came to firmly believe has worked for me. The other was from bryancd after St. George last year. There was a long thread where people were asking about his experience, since it was such a tough race, and he replied to nearly every post in there. I distinctly remember the windy bike conditions and his statement that he needed to stay in aero.  One of my regular training routes is from home to work, into the wind for much of it.  I keep his words in my head as much as possible.

Have a great day everyone!

2013-04-03 7:40 AM
in reply to: #4684257

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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED

ponderingfox - 2013-04-02 8:05 PM I don't know if anyone else thinks of this, but between all of us, we average more than 2,000 posts per month here in the pod.

But are we improving?  Do we need to step it up?  Should we be tapering in anticipation of the revamped groups (aka summer mentor groups) coming to a forum near year?

2013-04-03 7:43 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
Artemis - 2013-04-02 11:08 PM

Update on Jen:

1. My mom is visiting this week!  Little E is in heaven; she loves "ga-ga" so she's been spending tons of time with her.  I'm off this week just hanging out.  Lots of park visits, walks, etc. 

I hope that you are having a good visit.  Clearly E is!

2. I went running today. Ran for 19 minutes (1.63 miles) and ran the whole time.  

Woo hoo!

3. Bike stuff is up on eBay. Right now it's up to $870 or so, which is about 1/3 of the purchase price of the new bike.

Clearly we need to start a bidding war or something!  Innocent

2013-04-03 7:47 AM
in reply to: #4684446

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Subject: RE: Mental Manatee Mentors Part 3--CLOSED
TriAya - 2013-04-02 11:47 PM
Muskrat37 - 2013-04-03 3:37 AM
TriAya - 2013-04-02 9:02 AM

Clipless pedals transfer pressure better because your foot is locked in and the bike shoe sole is stiff.

Upstroke has nothing to do with it (power simply isn't generated then) nor with running off the bike. The mental imagery or physical feeling of a locked-in circular stroke usually means you are "unweighting" the rising foot well so that the downward-pushing foot isn't having to propel the bike AND lift up the weight of the other foot.

Tri bikes are better for running off the bike because your position on them decreases wind resistance, and you therefore use less energy to go the same speed as you would on a road bike.

While this may be true, it is also true that the tri bike uses your hamstrings more than a road bike, therefore saving some of the quads for the run. Whether you are just "unweighting" the back foot, or actually pulling up with it (which engages the glutes)...the end result is the same; you are not utilizing as much energy from the quad muscle to push down the pedal on the downstroke. Saving energy in all ways possible (efficient pedal stroke AND aero dynamics) is beneficial for the run.  

This article on BT specifically states that:

"The forward position (of the tri bike) requires more energy from the hamstrings when pedaling. Hopefully this will conserve some energy for the quadriceps when the bike leg is over and it’s time to run. We also can’t overlook the aerodynamic benefits of an efficient aero position."

I notice my hamstrings get a lot more work when I am in Aero for a long time.

That is my understanding, and experience.

It *could* be true, but there isn't any evidence for it. Ex phys evidence is very hard to establish, admittedly, for many reasons, but that's the nature of the beast.

"Hopefully this will conserve some energy for the quadriceps" that's either crappy science (not the least of which is the word "hopefully"--either it is or isn't, might or might not be, but say it) or an attempt to put it into layperson's terms which went badly.

I hate to say it, but most of the articles on BT are pretty crappy, if they have anything to do with ex phys or training justifications. For that kind of info, it is much better to do searches on ST and read the articles there, or links from posts. Best yet is to read the top-acknowledged people in the individual sports--and by that, I do NOT mean people like Joe Friel.

The article is several years old.  Bike geometry has changed a lot since 2006.  While it's nice to think that "investing" in a tri bike will conserve your legs for the run, I think that it's more wishful thinking. 

I feel that I can better hydrate on my tri bike and being more aerodynamic should certainly improve efficiency so there is that.

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