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Increasing power threshold over the winter (Page 8)
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 2008-01-24 10:09 AM in reply to: #1173794 |
Not a Coach  11473     Media, PA |  Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winteramiine - 2008-01-24 9:57 AM 5 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. 20 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. critical power = (watts x seconds for long test) - (watts x short test) / # of seconds between short and long test i.e. Jorge's 5 min power - 302 watts, 20 min power - 271 watts CP = (271 x 1200) - (302 x 300) / 900 = 261 watts. In theory this is what I should be able to hold for 1 hr which = to FTP ** this info was provided by Dr. Phil Skiba from Physfarm Coaching ** That's pretty cool. I hadn't seen that from Dr. Phil. |
| 2008-01-24 10:17 AM in reply to: #1097826 |
| Veteran 165 Aylmer, Qc | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter Me neither... But let me see. Jan 4th FTP test, done according to the protocol in the Allen/Coggan book 5 min: 331W 20 min: 260W rest in between: 10 minutes (600 seconds) (260*1200) - (331*300)/600 So following this formula, my FTP would be: 350W (unless I counted wrong), whereas using the 20 min - 5% I averaged it at 250W. That's quite the leap! |
| 2008-01-24 10:22 AM in reply to: #1173841 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter bryank14 - 2008-01-24 10:17 AM Me neither... But let me see. Jan 4th FTP test, done according to the protocol in the Allen/Coggan book 5 min: 331W 20 min: 260W rest in between: 10 minutes (600 seconds) (260*1200) - (331*300)/600 So following this formula, my FTP would be: 350W (unless I counted wrong), whereas using the 20 min - 5% I averaged it at 250W. That's quite the leap! nop you miscalculate. the difference between 1200 seconds and 300 seonds is 900. that equates your CP = 236 watts - sorry 350 sounded a lot better  That been said you have A LOT of room to bring that FT close to 300 watts. You have the potential for sure (5 min = 331 watts) you just need to do the work with many FT sessions |
| 2008-01-24 10:25 AM in reply to: #1097826 |
| Veteran 165 Aylmer, Qc | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter Got it. I misinterpreted the divider. I read it as the number of seconds of REST between the two results (ie: following the Coggan/Allen protocol of doing a 5 minutes all out/10 min rest/20 min tt test). But that 350 did not get me excited. I knew the minute I saw the number there was no way in hell that could be correct!! |
| 2008-01-24 10:29 AM in reply to: #1173822 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter JohnnyKay - 2008-01-24 10:09 AM yes very good stuff. his new software include also tools to calculate power for swim and run (plus the GOVSS, TRIMPS, etc) and have a better idea of training zones and total stress. IMO the swim one has potential more for testing and to try to estimate peaks but for running I am rather comfortable using Daniels VDOT tables.amiine - 2008-01-24 9:57 AM 5 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. 20 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. critical power = (watts x seconds for long test) - (watts x short test) / # of seconds between short and long test i.e. Jorge's 5 min power - 302 watts, 20 min power - 271 watts CP = (271 x 1200) - (302 x 300) / 900 = 261 watts. In theory this is what I should be able to hold for 1 hr which = to FTP ** this info was provided by Dr. Phil Skiba from Physfarm Coaching ** That's pretty cool. I hadn't seen that from Dr. Phil. In the end any method for testing you use has to be constant cuz that would help you better predict peak perfomance |
| 2008-01-24 10:33 AM in reply to: #1097826 |
| Veteran 165 Aylmer, Qc | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter So basically, that formula could be use with other variables (for the short test)? But just adapt the number. I like to do some 2 minutes tests at least twice a week. So I could substitute the 5 min results for 2 minutes, and change the divider. Or not? Interesting indeed. And I am a big fan of Dr. Phil. I am a new user of his software also. Real cool stuff. Especially for the training techo geeks... |
| 2008-01-24 10:38 AM in reply to: #1173872 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter bryank14 - 2008-01-24 10:33 AM So basically, that formula could be use with other variables (for the short test)? But just adapt the number. I like to do some 2 minutes tests at least twice a week. So I could substitute the 5 min results for 2 minutes, and change the divider. Or not? Interesting indeed. And I am a big fan of Dr. Phil. I am a new user of his software also. Real cool stuff. Especially for the training techo geeks... yes you could, in fact I think he uses a 2 min test or for runing something as short as 800 mts... there is more info on the manual to use the race day performance predictor |
| 2008-01-24 10:54 AM in reply to: #1097826 |
Master 2808  , Minnesota | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter Is it absolutely critical to use a flat course for FPT tests? I've used the CT 10k TT course, and am curious if I could use that in lieu of a flat course test. Thx. |
| 2008-01-24 11:40 AM in reply to: #1173794 |
| Expert 936 Salisbury | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter |
| 2008-01-24 11:40 AM in reply to: #1173794 |
| Expert 936 Salisbury | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter amiine - 2008-01-24 10:57 AM 5 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. 20 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. critical power = (watts x seconds for long test) - (watts x short test) / # of seconds between short and long test i.e. Jorge's 5 min power - 302 watts, 20 min power - 271 watts CP = (271 x 1200) - (302 x 300) / 900 = 261 watts. In theory this is what I should be able to hold for 1 hr which = to FTP ** this info was provided by Dr. Phil Skiba from Physfarm Coaching ** For this formula I would do a 20 min test,recover 2-4 min, do the 5 min test? Edited by Rencor 2008-01-24 11:43 AM |
| 2008-01-24 11:41 AM in reply to: #1097826 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter |
| 2008-01-24 11:50 AM in reply to: #1174079 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter the bear - 2008-01-24 11:41 AM Can I do my testing in spin class? Yes, but the protocol for that is 20 minutes of jumps. |
| 2008-01-24 12:38 PM in reply to: #1174072 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter Rencor - 2008-01-24 11:40 AM no, you want the best possible power output for both efforts hence it is better to do those on different days...amiine - 2008-01-24 10:57 AM 5 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. 20 min test - how much power the athlete can generate going all out. critical power = (watts x seconds for long test) - (watts x short test) / # of seconds between short and long test i.e. Jorge's 5 min power - 302 watts, 20 min power - 271 watts CP = (271 x 1200) - (302 x 300) / 900 = 261 watts. In theory this is what I should be able to hold for 1 hr which = to FTP ** this info was provided by Dr. Phil Skiba from Physfarm Coaching ** For this formula I would do a 20 min test,recover 2-4 min, do the 5 min test? |
| 2008-01-24 12:39 PM in reply to: #1174079 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter the bear - 2008-01-24 11:41 AM since you have no life, yes you can! Can I do my testing in spin class? j/k |
| 2008-01-24 12:42 PM in reply to: #1097826 |
| Veteran 165 Aylmer, Qc | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter I love the things I can get my brain to think about during a gorgeous lunch run like today. I don't think it would be wise for me to compare my FTP using the Coggan/Allen protocal compared to the CP formule Jorge posted. At least not from the data of my Jan. 4th test. Essentially I think you would need a good 20 min test and a good 5 min test done on different days (but same week). At least if you want to compare apples with apples. Isn't that what you did Jorge? My 20 min TT wattage was done 10 minutes after a 5 minutes all out. All good if you want to determine FTP using the Coggan/Allen protocal and 5% rule, but I would humbly suggest that using the Coach Phil formula, it would give different number ie: my 250W vs the 236W using same wattage but with CP formula. All good anyways. I love this stuff! And yes Jorge, I use the short test formula every week for my models in RaceDay. |
| 2008-01-24 12:42 PM in reply to: #1173938 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter leapdog - 2008-01-24 10:54 AM Is it absolutely critical to use a flat course for FPT tests? I've used the CT 10k TT course, and am curious if I could use that in lieu of a flat course test. Thx. you always want to test under the same conditions so if you do the CT 10k TT do that always, if you chose the 20 min/ 5 min do that, if you do the 2x20 min the same, if you chose to test on a hill always do the test on the hill. cosistency will give you useful results to better predict peak performance |
| 2008-01-24 8:07 PM in reply to: #1097826 |
Master 2808 , Minnesota | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter I found a link to this site on 'another tri website' and it's proved to be pretty darn cool. It's a site where you can create, save and export to CT any course you'd like to build. http://cc2.bradculberson.com/ |
| 2008-01-25 1:39 PM in reply to: #1174232 |
| Regular 60 | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter bryank14 - 2008-01-24 12:42 PM Essentially I think you would need a good 20 min test and a good 5 min test done on different days (but same week). At least if you want to compare apples with apples. Isn't that what you did Jorge? Hey Bryan, Got your email and thought I'd respond here...I usually advise people to do the two tests on different days, but the numbers should not be incredibly different even if you do both tests in the same workout, since FTP (at least, what you put up for a test) may vary by 5% from day to day, and then the accuracy of your PT or SRM is only about 2.5%. The one thing...to be a bit more accurate, I'd do a 3 minute test and a 20 minute test. But as I showed in the class last week, there isn't a big difference btween a 3 minute and a 5 minute test for the purposes of the model. Also, for those reading, it's not *my* formula...it is the Critical Power model of Monod and Scherrer, which was developed in the early 1960's or thereabouts. I just happen to like it because it gives us some science to hang our hats on, and keeps us from having to do 1 hour TT's all the time :-) (FWIW, both RaceDay and Triathlon Utilities have critical power calculators) Phil |
| 2008-01-25 1:42 PM in reply to: #1097826 |
| Veteran 165 Aylmer, Qc | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter Thanks for the always clear and precise info Phil... and to have joined our always educational "powert thread"! |
| 2008-01-25 1:51 PM in reply to: #1176238 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter PhysFarm - 2008-01-25 1:39 PM Also, for those reading, it's not *my* formula...it is the Critical Power model of Monod and Scherrer, which was developed in the early 1960's or thereabouts. I just happen to like it because it gives us some science to hang our hats on, and keeps us from having to do 1 hour TT's all the time :-) (FWIW, both RaceDay and Triathlon Utilities have critical power calculators) Phil Hey Phil! I should have been more precise by stating that you provided the info about using the CP model on your seminar, not necessaerly that it was your formula |
| 2008-01-25 1:51 PM in reply to: #1174232 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter bryank14 - 2008-01-24 12:42 PM I love the things I can get my brain to think about during a gorgeous lunch run like today. I don't think it would be wise for me to compare my FTP using the Coggan/Allen protocal compared to the CP formule Jorge posted. At least not from the data of my Jan. 4th test. Essentially I think you would need a good 20 min test and a good 5 min test done on different days (but same week). At least if you want to compare apples with apples. Isn't that what you did Jorge? My 20 min TT wattage was done 10 minutes after a 5 minutes all out. All good if you want to determine FTP using the Coggan/Allen protocal and 5% rule, but I would humbly suggest that using the Coach Phil formula, it would give different number ie: my 250W vs the 236W using same wattage but with CP formula. All good anyways. I love this stuff! And yes Jorge, I use the short test formula every week for my models in RaceDay. yes! |
| 2008-01-25 3:51 PM in reply to: #1173854 |
Veteran 114 NW suburbs of Chicago | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter amiine - 2008-01-24 10:22 AM bryank14 - 2008-01-24 10:17 AM Me neither... But let me see. Jan 4th FTP test, done according to the protocol in the Allen/Coggan book 5 min: 331W 20 min: 260W rest in between: 10 minutes (600 seconds) (260*1200) - (331*300)/600 So following this formula, my FTP would be: 350W (unless I counted wrong), whereas using the 20 min - 5% I averaged it at 250W. That's quite the leap! nop you miscalculate. the difference between 1200 seconds and 300 seonds is 900. that equates your CP = 236 watts - sorry 350 sounded a lot better That been said you have A LOT of room to bring that FT close to 300 watts. You have the potential for sure (5 min = 331 watts) you just need to do the work with many FT sessions Hi Jorge, I'm new here and am just getting my feet wet with this. Good stuff, and awesome thread! On this topic, I have a few questions: 1. What's the thought behind calculating FTP based on both the 5min and 20min #'s? This implies that your VO2max has an influence in your 1 hour capability. Obviously, Allen/Coggan's book does not (95% of the 20min avg pwr). 2. Looks like bryank14 may have a downward sloping power profile (high VO2Max, lower FTP). Does this type of profile mean that the athlete has a very good potential to raise FTP quicker than say, an athlete with a flat profile (similar V02Max & FTP)? |
| 2008-01-28 3:06 PM in reply to: #1097826 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter So you with Power Taps do you try and zero your torque when riding on a trainer? I figure I could do it with help from someone by taking my bike off the trainer and lifting back wheel, pedaling it and do the zero torque thing. I wonder if it matters that much? I try and zero my torque every outside ride. |
| 2008-01-28 3:15 PM in reply to: #1180267 |
| Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter You can set the CPU up to "auto-zero". I still try to check it every ride as there have been a couple of times where it wasn't zero. To answer your question specifically, yes I check to be sure the torque is zeroed on the trainer. I just have my gearing easy, spin up really fast and see if it's zero. scott |
| 2008-01-29 7:53 AM in reply to: #1176516 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Increasing power threshold over the winter stinkyhelmet - 2008-01-25 3:51 PM Hi Jorge, I'm new here and am just getting my feet wet with this. Good stuff, and awesome thread! On this topic, I have a few questions: 1. What's the thought behind calculating FTP based on both the 5min and 20min #'s? This implies that your VO2max has an influence in your 1 hour capability. Obviously, Allen/Coggan's book does not (95% of the 20min avg pwr). 2. Looks like bryank14 may have a downward sloping power profile (high VO2Max, lower FTP). Does this type of profile mean that the athlete has a very good potential to raise FTP quicker than say, an athlete with a flat profile (similar V02Max & FTP)? Sorry for the late response but so far this it is been a crazy busy year for me with coaching, training + my regular job but I promise I’ll review and post on this thread at least once a week. Anyway, regarding to your questions; 1) let start by saying that even though the 20 min test and getting 95% of that can be adjusted as your FT suggested on the Allen/Coggan book in reality A. Coggan main recommendation for obtaining that value is a 1 hr time trial or 40K. These are the different methods suggested by A. Coggan from less reliable to most reliable: Ways of determining your functional threshold power (roughly in order of increasing certainty):1) from inspection of a ride file. 2) from power distribution profile from multiple rides. 3) from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it is done). 4) based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race. 5) using critical power testing and analysis. 6) from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training. 7) from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of performance is performance itself). Note the key words "hard", "routinely", and "average" in methods 4, 6, and 7... Regarding the critical power model; there is a strong correlation between the power we can generate at different intensities hence using the best 3-5 min power and your best 20 min power can get you a good estimate of your 60 min, 90 min, etc. for instance if you want to estimate what your 90 or 120 power you could do that from your 5min a 20 min best power but it would be better if you have 20/30min and 60 min values. That’s why Hunter suggest the .95 from a 20 min power test and others coaches like Strauss prefer the 2x20 min method, because there is a this linear correlation. (that's way Jack Daniels VDOT tables for running worrk) But keep in mind that as the power curve extends the estimation might not be as accurate because we might the potential but not have the necessary fitness to produce such power. Also there are different methods for testing because as coaches we have to find ways to test the regular AGer on a regular basis. The best way would be to have them do a 1 hr TT because it better correlates with LT and MLSS (maximum lactate steady state) but I am sure I would have a tough time having my guys do that test every 6-8 week! 2) In general yes, but in his case he admitted that he didn’t d the 20 min test under the best conditions (I think somewhere in this thread he mentioned he wasn’t properly rested) so his true FTP maybe somewhat higher. |
hence we use shorter test that can gives us a solid good ball park of power threshold to work with.
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