SWBKRUN -CLOSED DUE TO TRAINING (Page 86)
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() gdale - 2012-02-22 9:32 AM Ha!! My parents were just reading this article to me and we were discussing the rules and implications, etc. The rule is a bit over the top if you asked me!Be careful where and when you shave... Although the intent of the rule seems to make sense, the punishment seems a little crazy.
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Quick question for the group. At what point does swimming faster mean pulling harder rather than working on form? Being that most triathlon swims are wetsuit legal, the wetsuit corrects the position problems that slow us down. So when do we just increase strokes per minute? I include drills into most of my workouts and spend a lot of time on position and form. When I swim with friends (new to triathlon but with running or cycling backgrounds) without a wetsuit, there is a noticeable difference in our speed. When we do an open water swim WITH the suit, that difference is barely noticeable. All of their leg dragging and body position issues go away. They benefit way more from the suit than I do. I just wonder how much time should really be spent on form, and if more should be spent maybe in a weight room or just swimming harder? Thoughts?
(Disclaimer: I injured my shoulder when I first started because of bad form. It was fixed when I got a swim coach) |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cbarnes1 - 2012-02-22 1:20 PM Quick question for the group. At what point does swimming faster mean pulling harder rather than working on form? Being that most triathlon swims are wetsuit legal, the wetsuit corrects the position problems that slow us down. So when do we just increase strokes per minute? I include drills into most of my workouts and spend a lot of time on position and form. When I swim with friends (new to triathlon but with running or cycling backgrounds) without a wetsuit, there is a noticeable difference in our speed. When we do an open water swim WITH the suit, that difference is barely noticeable. All of their leg dragging and body position issues go away. They benefit way more from the suit than I do. I just wonder how much time should really be spent on form, and if more should be spent maybe in a weight room or just swimming harder? Thoughts?
(Disclaimer: I injured my shoulder when I first started because of bad form. It was fixed when I got a swim coach) Personally, I say a lot. A suit will not stop you from crosssing your center line under the water. A suit will not give you good high elbows aiding in recovery, a suit will not improve your pull. A suit will not stop you from lifting your head too much. The more unnecessary drag you create the harder you have to work. A suit will help reducing leg drag but other than that form is still critical. Think of form as your base (like running) and intervals are your speed work. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I think the key to swmming is keeping your form when you are fatigued. For me, when I am not in good swimming shape, I can just feel my stroke coming apart when I try to swim hardish for x distance (short now, longer the better shape I am in). Once the stroke deteriorates, you are working harder to go slower, wetsuit or not. I will agree that the better your position in the water, the less a wetuit benefits you compared to someone who sits lower in the water, but to Dug's point, it won't fix stroke flaws. I think for me when I am more tired I don't catch as well up front, and likely shorten up my stroke at the end. I haven't had much swim feedback over the past few years, so I'm just guessing. But I do know I can work very, very hard to go not very fast right now, ha! I think for me drills are probabl good toward the end of a workout when I'm a bit more tired and need to concentrate on the finer points. |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() gobluedds - 2012-02-22 11:08 AM Staying at the Congress. Meetings at McCormick Place. Really hoping for decent weather. Would love to get a couple or early morning runs along the lake shore.
You are staying in a good place to do that! Have you done the Chicago Tri? If you haven't, then the lakefront path right there is the run course if you take it south. The Harbor right there is where the swim is. |
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![]() kt65 - 2012-02-21 6:28 PM I love bacon.
I had another swim lesson yesterday and there are some things that I am definitely doing better like not crossing the mid-line, not flicking my hand at the end of the pull (don't ask!), keeping high elbows...but what was enlightening was how much I think I do not kick vs. how much I really still kick. My teacher is great...she uses pretty cool examples to get her point across. So she asks me to swim a fast 50 as fast as I can remembering all of the things we've talked about. Like high elbows, check. No crossing mid-line. Rotate body well on both sides, really extend the torso prior to the pull...don't kick hard. 46 seconds!!! Well apparently, one can go fast when kicking like a crazy banshee. I really thought I only kicked to keep my body afloat. Wrong! No wonder, I can barely break 2:00 on a 100. So, she gave me her bracelet to put between my ankles and told me to hold the bracelet and try to swim off the wall. Well, I got about 5 yards and promptly lost the bracelet. Again. Again. Again...until, I started to really rotate my body and pull all the way through...pushing my chest forward and down in order to extend my torso and create a boat like propulsion. COOL! This will be a drill for me prior to my swimming main sets, but instead of a bracelet, I am using an old pair of goggles to keep my feet together...it gives a little bit of play without the false buoyancy of a pull buoy (which she doesn't want me to use so I can get those legs to just sit more still on their own)...she's not a big fan of bands. I can also use a filled water bottle if I am feeling courageous. I really felt different today (after all of these crazy legs tied up drills) at my workout. Oh and breathing out steadily instead of in spurts is something that gives me a lot more time to breathe and not hold my neck so tense...I'm trying to do that as I sit at my desk right now! Swimming food for thought!
Two months and you'll have your favorite bacon doughnut. Great job on the swimming. Love the progress!!! |
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![]() SSMinnow - 2012-02-22 5:39 AM Even though it's early, it's still Wednesday! Who's taking the time to do a little racing this weekend? Spill it.
No racing here, wish I had a race to go to. My oldest son is turning 11 so he has friends coming over. I have been told it's no longer a "birthday party" but rather a "hang out". Anyway, they are hanging out and sleeping over. They are all really good kids, but when they all get together anything can happen. |
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![]() cbarnes1 - 2012-02-22 1:20 PM Quick question for the group. At what point does swimming faster mean pulling harder rather than working on form? Being that most triathlon swims are wetsuit legal, the wetsuit corrects the position problems that slow us down. So when do we just increase strokes per minute? I include drills into most of my workouts and spend a lot of time on position and form. When I swim with friends (new to triathlon but with running or cycling backgrounds) without a wetsuit, there is a noticeable difference in our speed. When we do an open water swim WITH the suit, that difference is barely noticeable. All of their leg dragging and body position issues go away. They benefit way more from the suit than I do. I just wonder how much time should really be spent on form, and if more should be spent maybe in a weight room or just swimming harder? Thoughts?
(Disclaimer: I injured my shoulder when I first started because of bad form. It was fixed when I got a swim coach)
I agree with Doug and Kyla. Form is critical. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() kkcbelle - 2012-02-22 12:34 PM I think the key to swmming is keeping your form when you are fatigued. For me, when I am not in good swimming shape, I can just feel my stroke coming apart when I try to swim hardish for x distance (short now, longer the better shape I am in). Once the stroke deteriorates, you are working harder to go slower, wetsuit or not. I will agree that the better your position in the water, the less a wetuit benefits you compared to someone who sits lower in the water, but to Dug's point, it won't fix stroke flaws. I think for me when I am more tired I don't catch as well up front, and likely shorten up my stroke at the end. I haven't had much swim feedback over the past few years, so I'm just guessing. But I do know I can work very, very hard to go not very fast right now, ha! I think for me drills are probabl good toward the end of a workout when I'm a bit more tired and need to concentrate on the finer points. Doug is right of course but even the high elbows don't work the same in a suit. I think there are as many form problems with running as swimming yet there are some fast "ugly" runners out there. They just dig deep. I like what you said about efficiency. I am a believer that in the longer races it is more important not to be tired out of the water than out quickly. But really, at some point after that perfect extension, perfect catch, perfect rotation, head down, in mid-line, and parallel to the bottom of the pool don't you have to just swim faster? |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Havin'Fun - 2012-02-22 2:46 PM cbarnes1 - 2012-02-22 1:20 PM Quick question for the group. At what point does swimming faster mean pulling harder rather than working on form? Being that most triathlon swims are wetsuit legal, the wetsuit corrects the position problems that slow us down. So when do we just increase strokes per minute? I include drills into most of my workouts and spend a lot of time on position and form. When I swim with friends (new to triathlon but with running or cycling backgrounds) without a wetsuit, there is a noticeable difference in our speed. When we do an open water swim WITH the suit, that difference is barely noticeable. All of their leg dragging and body position issues go away. They benefit way more from the suit than I do. I just wonder how much time should really be spent on form, and if more should be spent maybe in a weight room or just swimming harder? Thoughts?
(Disclaimer: I injured my shoulder when I first started because of bad form. It was fixed when I got a swim coach)
I agree with Doug and Kyla. Form is critical. Fast swimmers talking the other side makes my argument harder Linda Edited by cbarnes1 2012-02-22 6:01 PM |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cbarnes1 - 2012-02-22 3:56 PM But really, at some point after that perfect extension, perfect catch, perfect rotation, head down, in mid-line, and parallel to the bottom of the pool don't you have to just swim faster? I think this would be true, but the question is, where is that point? I'm thinking that until you have practically perfect form, you can still improve upon it. Though, I have to admit that I sometimes watch people swimming, and I can pick out lots of form flaws, yet they are still knocking off pretty good times. |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() No racing here. Had a fun conversation on facebook this morning. A (semi) local, very popular race opened up registration this morning and I tagged a bunch of people and asked who was going to register. Plenty of rubber arm twisting going on. Lots of sign ups. I'd mention it is Melissa's for the other local person in the group, but it is in September, and I hear that person just sits on their for 4-5 months after completing big races... |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() _Deb_ - 2012-02-22 3:30 PM No racing here. Had a fun conversation on facebook this morning. A (semi) local, very popular race opened up registration this morning and I tagged a bunch of people and asked who was going to register. Plenty of rubber arm twisting going on. Lots of sign ups. I'd mention it is Melissa's for the other local person in the group, but it is in September, and I hear that person just sits on their for 4-5 months after completing big races...
Good one, DEB!!!! I wonder if that person will ignore this post as he sometimes goes missing for weeks on end but lurks. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() DougRob - 2012-02-22 3:11 PM A poorly fitting suit certainly will prevent crossing centerline. Full sleeve suits certainly are designed to improve pull. But to your point about form, sure. cbarnes1 - 2012-02-22 1:20 PM Quick question for the group. At what point does swimming faster mean pulling harder rather than working on form? Being that most triathlon swims are wetsuit legal, the wetsuit corrects the position problems that slow us down. So when do we just increase strokes per minute? I include drills into most of my workouts and spend a lot of time on position and form. When I swim with friends (new to triathlon but with running or cycling backgrounds) without a wetsuit, there is a noticeable difference in our speed. When we do an open water swim WITH the suit, that difference is barely noticeable. All of their leg dragging and body position issues go away. They benefit way more from the suit than I do. I just wonder how much time should really be spent on form, and if more should be spent maybe in a weight room or just swimming harder? Thoughts?
(Disclaimer: I injured my shoulder when I first started because of bad form. It was fixed when I got a swim coach) Personally, I say a lot. A suit will not stop you from crosssing your center line under the water. A suit will not give you good high elbows aiding in recovery, a suit will not improve your pull. A suit will not stop you from lifting your head too much. The more unnecessary drag you create the harder you have to work. A suit will help reducing leg drag but other than that form is still critical. Think of form as your base (like running) and intervals are your speed work. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() kt65 - 2012-02-22 4:53 PM Who ya'll talkin' 'bout?Fyi.... We didn't signed up. That 10k is tougher than the half. Great race in Banff though.Plus,by mid-sept i'll be hip deep in potato chips and ice cream again._Deb_ - 2012-02-22 3:30 PM No racing here. Had a fun conversation on facebook this morning. A (semi) local, very popular race opened up registration this morning and I tagged a bunch of people and asked who was going to register. Plenty of rubber arm twisting going on. Lots of sign ups. I'd mention it is Melissa's for the other local person in the group, but it is in September, and I hear that person just sits on their for 4-5 months after completing big races...
Good one, DEB!!!! I wonder if that person will ignore this post as he sometimes goes missing for weeks on end but lurks. |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() TrevorC - 2012-02-22 6:55 PM kt65 - 2012-02-22 4:53 PM Who ya'll talkin' 'bout?Fyi.... We didn't signed up. That 10k is tougher than the half. Great race in Banff though.Plus,by mid-sept i'll be hip deep in potato chips and ice cream again._Deb_ - 2012-02-22 3:30 PM No racing here. Had a fun conversation on facebook this morning. A (semi) local, very popular race opened up registration this morning and I tagged a bunch of people and asked who was going to register. Plenty of rubber arm twisting going on. Lots of sign ups. I'd mention it is Melissa's for the other local person in the group, but it is in September, and I hear that person just sits on their for 4-5 months after completing big races...
Good one, DEB!!!! I wonder if that person will ignore this post as he sometimes goes missing for weeks on end but lurks. I'm just having fun. In all seriousness, if I were doing IMC, I wouldn't sign up for a September race either. Having said that, I've got a couple friends on facebook that are doing IMC and did sign up for it. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() In a nutshell, I haven't felt like I am working as hard or consistently on the run-focused tri plan I have been trying to follow since the first of the year as I did at the end of last year when I was only running. A large part of the problem is trying to get in bike rides before/after work during daylight hours. My primary goals for this year are 1) a sub-30 5k; 2) complete a HM; and 3) complete an Oly. I am considering going back to a run focused plan for the next 6 weeks and maybe looking at more 5K's through the Spring. I talked with a local HS cross-country coach about adding some speed work and hill repeats over a 4-6 week period; but it would require me to run 5-6 times a week. I feel like I could still get in one good swim and possibly one long bike ride in each week to quasi-maintain fitness there. If I go in that direction, my thought would be to move back to a more tri-focused plan around the end of March/early April (after DST kicks in). FWIW, the first sprint I am looking at is the last weekend of April; the Oly in September and the HM in November. Thoughts/suggestions? |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cbarnes1 - 2012-02-23 3:20 AM Quick question for the group. At what point does swimming faster mean pulling harder rather than working on form? Being that most triathlon swims are wetsuit legal, the wetsuit corrects the position problems that slow us down. So when do we just increase strokes per minute? I include drills into most of my workouts and spend a lot of time on position and form. When I swim with friends (new to triathlon but with running or cycling backgrounds) without a wetsuit, there is a noticeable difference in our speed. When we do an open water swim WITH the suit, that difference is barely noticeable. All of their leg dragging and body position issues go away. They benefit way more from the suit than I do. I just wonder how much time should really be spent on form, and if more should be spent maybe in a weight room or just swimming harder? Thoughts?
(Disclaimer: I injured my shoulder when I first started because of bad form. It was fixed when I got a swim coach) I read somewhere that well over 90% of your swim effort is wasted on resistance so increasing the effort only gives minimal gain whilst decreasing the resistance by improving form can reap larger gains. Swim smooth has a method for finding your optimal stroke rate giving the best speed without increasing effort, I've messed around with it and it works, I just need to get a tempo trainer and do a formal testing session. http://www.swimsmooth.com/ramptest.html |
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![]() tdl1972 - 2012-02-22 11:19 PM In a nutshell, I haven't felt like I am working as hard or consistently on the run-focused tri plan I have been trying to follow since the first of the year as I did at the end of last year when I was only running. A large part of the problem is trying to get in bike rides before/after work during daylight hours. My primary goals for this year are 1) a sub-30 5k; 2) complete a HM; and 3) complete an Oly. I am considering going back to a run focused plan for the next 6 weeks and maybe looking at more 5K's through the Spring. I talked with a local HS cross-country coach about adding some speed work and hill repeats over a 4-6 week period; but it would require me to run 5-6 times a week. I feel like I could still get in one good swim and possibly one long bike ride in each week to quasi-maintain fitness there. If I go in that direction, my thought would be to move back to a more tri-focused plan around the end of March/early April (after DST kicks in). FWIW, the first sprint I am looking at is the last weekend of April; the Oly in September and the HM in November. Thoughts/suggestions?
I think it depends on your goals for the April sprint vs. your running goals. If the running goals are more motivating to you, go for the run focus. You have plenty of time to build your bike and swim volume before that September Oly. A note on the running: I wouldn't add speed work at this point. You can make a lot of progress with less risk of injury just by gradually increasing volume with lots of easy running. I'd be cautious about the hill work, too, especially if you're building volume.
ETA: I like your new avatar! Edited by gotta run 2012-02-23 12:15 PM |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() gotta run - 2012-02-23 12:14 PM tdl1972 - 2012-02-22 11:19 PM In a nutshell, I haven't felt like I am working as hard or consistently on the run-focused tri plan I have been trying to follow since the first of the year as I did at the end of last year when I was only running. A large part of the problem is trying to get in bike rides before/after work during daylight hours. My primary goals for this year are 1) a sub-30 5k; 2) complete a HM; and 3) complete an Oly. I am considering going back to a run focused plan for the next 6 weeks and maybe looking at more 5K's through the Spring. I talked with a local HS cross-country coach about adding some speed work and hill repeats over a 4-6 week period; but it would require me to run 5-6 times a week. I feel like I could still get in one good swim and possibly one long bike ride in each week to quasi-maintain fitness there. If I go in that direction, my thought would be to move back to a more tri-focused plan around the end of March/early April (after DST kicks in). FWIW, the first sprint I am looking at is the last weekend of April; the Oly in September and the HM in November. Thoughts/suggestions?
I think it depends on your goals for the April sprint vs. your running goals. If the running goals are more motivating to you, go for the run focus. You have plenty of time to build your bike and swim volume before that September Oly. A note on the running: I wouldn't add speed work at this point. You can make a lot of progress with less risk of injury just by gradually increasing volume with lots of easy running. I'd be cautious about the hill work, too, especially if you're building volume.
ETA: I like your new avatar! Completely agree! I made a ton of progress as a new runner by ramping up my volume. Didn't do speedwork for several years and still PR'ed in every distance for quite some time. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cbarnes1 - 2012-02-22 2:56 PM kkcbelle - 2012-02-22 12:34 PM I think the key to swmming is keeping your form when you are fatigued. For me, when I am not in good swimming shape, I can just feel my stroke coming apart when I try to swim hardish for x distance (short now, longer the better shape I am in). Once the stroke deteriorates, you are working harder to go slower, wetsuit or not. I will agree that the better your position in the water, the less a wetuit benefits you compared to someone who sits lower in the water, but to Dug's point, it won't fix stroke flaws. I think for me when I am more tired I don't catch as well up front, and likely shorten up my stroke at the end. I haven't had much swim feedback over the past few years, so I'm just guessing. But I do know I can work very, very hard to go not very fast right now, ha! I think for me drills are probabl good toward the end of a workout when I'm a bit more tired and need to concentrate on the finer points. Doug is right of course but even the high elbows don't work the same in a suit. I think there are as many form problems with running as swimming yet there are some fast "ugly" runners out there. They just dig deep. I like what you said about efficiency. I am a believer that in the longer races it is more important not to be tired out of the water than out quickly. But really, at some point after that perfect extension, perfect catch, perfect rotation, head down, in mid-line, and parallel to the bottom of the pool don't you have to just swim faster? Easier said than done, right?? If it were that simple we'd all swim like Michael Phelps and I'd run as fast as Kim (or you!)! Yes, when it comes down to it, with anything you just have to be faster!!! |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Thanks everybody with the info! I experiment a lot with workouts and have learned what works for me and what I am comfortable with. There are so many people around here that have done a tri or two and call themselves coaches. They say things that simply aren't true. I question many rules of training Suzy's advice on LSD was spot on for me too. Most of my gains came from increased easy volume. I did reach a point where I had to add speed work to make progress but it was 3 years in. I think I have reached a similar point swimming. I have a months worth of sessions with a swim coach starting next week (WAC champion and top team scorer). I want to be strong for CdA... so I don't drown in the washing machine. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cbarnes1 - 2012-02-23 6:48 PM Thanks everybody with the info! I experiment a lot with workouts and have learned what works for me and what I am comfortable with. There are so many people around here that have done a tri or two and call themselves coaches. They say things that simply aren't true. I question many rules of training Suzy's advice on LSD was spot on for me too. Most of my gains came from increased easy volume. I did reach a point where I had to add speed work to make progress but it was 3 years in. I think I have reached a similar point swimming. I have a months worth of sessions with a swim coach starting next week (WAC champion and top team scorer). I want to be strong for CdA... so I don't drown in the washing machine. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() By here I mean Vegas. I have total faith in this group. Thanks John |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cbarnes1 - 2012-02-23 7:03 PM By here I mean Vegas. I have total faith in this group. Thanks John Honestly I think it's a good reminder. We can all talk about our experiences or what we've read, but none of us are experts. What worked for me may be totally wrong for the next guy. |
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