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The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge (Page 9)
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 2010-01-06 5:32 PM in reply to: #2598769 |
Expert  1104   Canada |  Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challengeyogachic - 2010-01-06 6:36 PM I'll chime in for what it's worth. brick94513 - 2010-01-06 3:29 PM I would be interested in hearing opinions on this plan. In doing some quick research, it seems so contrary to other plans on the market. Like you said, even though you are only running three times a week, the intensities of those runs are very high. The distance and pace of the long run each week without the supporting weekly mileage stands out to me. I was under the impression that your long run should be no more than 40-50 percent of your weekly mileage. But, then again, I'm by no means an expert in this field. Please don't take any of this the wrong way. I'm not trying to bash. I just would hate to see you get hurt. Plus, I'm always craving new knowledge. No offense taken at all! I'd love to hear opinions as well, and also would hate to see myself get hurt! I had this plan recommended to me by a friend in my tri club who uses it for her races as well (she does ultras as well as HIM's and IM's), but I'm definitely open to hearing what other people think about it too. I am no expert, I have been running for 2 years & done 4 Half mary's & numerous races below this. No Mary, although thinking about doing a spring mary. Anyway, I agree with Tim. I reviewed your logs. Although you may not be completely novice, I think base running is much more important now. The long run is very important. If you don't have enough base miles the speed work may injure you, asuming you are doing it strenously. These tend to be very taxing workouts. When I do them, I often need to take the following day off or very easy, as I am sore!! This may be attributed to my relatively shot running pedigree, as well. I think the best way for you to improve your running is to run more! Not to concentrate on speed! The speed will come with tme and mileage. Some 4 month programs (for Mary & half Mary), call for Speed work for about 4-5 weeks, and only at the end, with sufficient mileage & hill work done. This is because the risk of injury is so high! Anyway, I as well, mean no offence. Only hope to help, in some way. What better reason to be in a group, but for free advice. Richard PS. I saw a Yoga calendar recently, with pics of 12 poses. That looks like pain to me!!! Edited by GoGoGo 2010-01-06 5:33 PM |
| 2010-01-06 6:33 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Expert 1104 Canada | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge OK, you guys are too quiet today. I'm bored. Think I'll go & plant a little in seed in the Tazer's thread. HeHe Edited by GoGoGo 2010-01-06 6:33 PM |
| 2010-01-06 6:40 PM in reply to: #2598536 |
Master 1841  Sendai, Japan | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge yogachic - 2010-01-07 5:06 AM If you want some opinions, search for "furman" in the forums. First has come up a couple of times recently and there are folks who are pro and con. The plan may well work for you, but there are many who say you should have a strong base before moving into any form of speedwork, i.e., 20-30 mpw in zone 2 for 2 months. I'm building my base slowly because I have had injury problems in the past. I know my body is not ready for speedwork - a couple of runs with faster friends last year took me out of action for a week each time. Good luck!brick94513 - 2010-01-06 2:00 PM yogachic - 2010-01-06 8:07 AM Hi Team! Just checking in! Since I just joined the team, I guess I should update everyone on what I've been doing. I started marathon training last week, and Fri (New Year's Day!) was a 6-mile tempo run = 2 miles easy, 2 miles tempo, 2 miles easy. Sunday was my long run, and it was my longest outdoor run (9 miles) since my half marathon in Nov. . . And I was running in windy, 5-degree whether the whole time! I didn't think the 9-miler was too bad, but then on Monday I had to cut short the lifting workout I had planned because my legs were really sore  So, instead I opted to just stretch and foam roll out my legs. Unfortunately, that puts me slightly behind on my January goal of 10 hrs of strength training.Last night was a speed session on the treadmill since I didn't feel like battling the cold & wind again. I logged a total of 3.75, so I'm right no track for my run goal of the month. Not knowing your experience level, just a little word of caution. Be careful with the speedwork. In fact, many marathon plans avoid this form of work all together. I prefer to still do speedwork, but I only do one form of speedwork per week (tempo, hills, or intervals). I also make sure I have a rest day preceeding the workout. Just my two cents.... I'll get off the soapbox now  Thanks! No worries about the soap box  Any and all advice/ opinions are welcome! This was actually something I debated on when I was trying to choose my marathon plan....The one I decided to go with is the FIRST marathon training plan for people running their first marathon (http://www.furman.edu/first/fmtp.htm) at the suggestion of an ultrarunner/triathlete I know. Her reasoning was that the plan only called for 3 runs a week, which is a lot less than most other marathon plans, so it'd be easier to incorporate into my HIM training. You're also supposed to cross-train (or take easy runs) 2-3 days a week... so right now I'm lifting on my cross training days, and will start adding swim/bike workouts into my schedule starting in Feb. The only issue is that the 3 runs are all hard runs (1 interval, 1 tempo, and 1 long run). I know they caution beginners against doing speedwork, but I'm not exactly sure if I'd be considered a beginner or not... I've been running off & on for two years, and I did a sprint, 3 olys, and 2 half marathons last year. Not sure if that's enough to not be a beginner? Also, the plan tells you the pace you're supposed to run at, based on your 10k race pace. So hopefully I won't be running so fast that I'd injure myself. So anyways, long story short, I AM kind of worried about all the speedwork, too. I'm definitely watching it, though, which is why I'm taking extra steps to make sure I'm stretching/foam rolling/resting/recovering as necessary!  |
| 2010-01-06 8:50 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Veteran 244 | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge I agree i am a complete running novice and I decided to try an interval workout on the 'mill today. hard for 2 min rest for 4 min. I couldnt get my self to do the second hard part, my but cheek cramped so bad I almost fell off the mill in a very crowded gym. BE very careful my friend. in my opinion right now EFF intervals and just run a steady pace and remember to smile it could always be worse than training!!!! |
| 2010-01-06 9:12 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Expert 1163 | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Thanks for all the advice! I've definitely been known to be a little hard core when starting out (heck, I practiced Bikram yoga for about 2 years before even attempting any room temperature yoga!) so it's good to hear everyone's opinions. I guess I didn't think it'd be too bad because usually my normal runs are faster & longer than the "tempo" pace they recommend in the training plan. (Whenever I'd run, it was usually around my 10k race pace, which I now know is bad, but that's what I did last year when I didn't really know any better). I was thinking of adding an extra easy run (4-5 miles) to the schedule anyways, so maybe I can just replace the interval with a regular short run and keep the tempo run in there once a week? I'm still planning on cross training every non-run day except for 1 off day a week. Does that sound better? |
| 2010-01-06 10:06 PM in reply to: #2599335 |
Master 1887 Brentwood, CA | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge yogachic - 2010-01-06 7:12 PM Thanks for all the advice! I've definitely been known to be a little hard core when starting out (heck, I practiced Bikram yoga for about 2 years before even attempting any room temperature yoga!) so it's good to hear everyone's opinions. I guess I didn't think it'd be too bad because usually my normal runs are faster & longer than the "tempo" pace they recommend in the training plan. (Whenever I'd run, it was usually around my 10k race pace, which I now know is bad, but that's what I did last year when I didn't really know any better). I was thinking of adding an extra easy run (4-5 miles) to the schedule anyways, so maybe I can just replace the interval with a regular short run and keep the tempo run in there once a week? I'm still planning on cross training every non-run day except for 1 off day a week. Does that sound better? Just for comparison, here is a more traditional approach. This is considered a novice program for the first time marathon runner. Why novice?? Because it only contains one 20 mile run and lacks speedwork. Why no speedwork? Most people will tell you to forgot times and only focus on completion for the first marathon.
While I'm following a similar plan, I'm like you and like speedwork. So, on the first day of the week and depending on how I'm feeling, I will substitute a tempo run, intervals, or hill work. For paces, I current use times extrapolated from Jack Daniel's V-Dot formula. Obviously, there is no one set plan for every runner. We are all unique and require a specific approach to our training. If what your currently doing feels good, stay with it. However, if you start to develop pain, aches, cramping, etc that you didn't experience previously, then you may need to re-evaluate your plan. |
| 2010-01-06 10:15 PM in reply to: #2598536 |
Expert 711 | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge yogachic - 2010-01-06 4:06 PM brick94513 - 2010-01-06 2:00 PM yogachic - 2010-01-06 8:07 AM Hi Team! Just checking in! Since I just joined the team, I guess I should update everyone on what I've been doing. I started marathon training last week, and Fri (New Year's Day!) was a 6-mile tempo run = 2 miles easy, 2 miles tempo, 2 miles easy. Sunday was my long run, and it was my longest outdoor run (9 miles) since my half marathon in Nov. . . And I was running in windy, 5-degree whether the whole time! I didn't think the 9-miler was too bad, but then on Monday I had to cut short the lifting workout I had planned because my legs were really sore So, instead I opted to just stretch and foam roll out my legs. Unfortunately, that puts me slightly behind on my January goal of 10 hrs of strength training.Last night was a speed session on the treadmill since I didn't feel like battling the cold & wind again. I logged a total of 3.75, so I'm right no track for my run goal of the month. Not knowing your experience level, just a little word of caution. Be careful with the speedwork. In fact, many marathon plans avoid this form of work all together. I prefer to still do speedwork, but I only do one form of speedwork per week (tempo, hills, or intervals). I also make sure I have a rest day preceeding the workout. Just my two cents.... I'll get off the soapbox now Thanks! No worries about the soap box Any and all advice/ opinions are welcome! This was actually something I debated on when I was trying to choose my marathon plan....The one I decided to go with is the FIRST marathon training plan for people running their first marathon (http://www.furman.edu/first/fmtp.htm) at the suggestion of an ultrarunner/triathlete I know. Her reasoning was that the plan only called for 3 runs a week, which is a lot less than most other marathon plans, so it'd be easier to incorporate into my HIM training. You're also supposed to cross-train (or take easy runs) 2-3 days a week... so right now I'm lifting on my cross training days, and will start adding swim/bike workouts into my schedule starting in Feb. The only issue is that the 3 runs are all hard runs (1 interval, 1 tempo, and 1 long run). I know they caution beginners against doing speedwork, but I'm not exactly sure if I'd be considered a beginner or not... I've been running off & on for two years, and I did a sprint, 3 olys, and 2 half marathons last year. Not sure if that's enough to not be a beginner? Also, the plan tells you the pace you're supposed to run at, based on your 10k race pace. So hopefully I won't be running so fast that I'd injure myself. So anyways, long story short, I AM kind of worried about all the speedwork, too. I'm definitely watching it, though, which is why I'm taking extra steps to make sure I'm stretching/foam rolling/resting/recovering as necessary! OMG, every time you post anything it's another thing we have in common! I've been following the Furman FIRST plan to train for my first marathon this spring too. I've been getting a lot of inspire comments about how my interval pace (7:15) seems WAY too fast. But it also came highly recommended to me by a multiple-marathoner and Ironman competitor who I did some training with last year. If I don't find some time to train in the next couple of weeks, it's going to be a moot point regardless. |
| 2010-01-06 10:34 PM in reply to: #2599463 |
Master 1887 Brentwood, CA | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge trysprintolympic - 2010-01-06 8:15 PM I've been following the Furman FIRST plan to train for my first marathon this spring too. I've been getting a lot of inspire comments about how my interval pace (7:15) seems WAY too fast. But it also came highly recommended to me by a multiple-marathoner and Ironman competitor who I did some training with last year. Here's a link to debate on about itensity versus volume here on BT: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=147098&start=1 Also, something to keep in consideration, while the ultrarunner, marathoner, or ironman might find the plan beneficial, how has thier volume of training differed from you in preparation to adopting the plan. It goes back to there being no one perfect mold. God, I'm feeling like such a naysayer! |
| 2010-01-06 11:44 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 2055 Santa Clarita | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge First swim of the year . 1800 yds and got asked to leave the pool due to lap swim being finshed . Still good to get that first swim of the year out of the way. A group of 15 in full clothing with lifevests doing a oil rig sea platform rescue training course jumped in besides me so i switched to kickboard at the end of my workout to watch and listen to their instructor.
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| 2010-01-07 12:29 AM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 2055 Santa Clarita | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Regarding marathon training : intervals tempo and hillwork will make you more efficient but increasing long runs every second week will stress you up pretty bad . So maybe do the harder pace stuff or hillier on the inbetween weeks where you are not increasing your long run mileage . Almost all marathon (90%) of your training run should be at a conversational pace . And weekly mileage should not increase more than 10% per week . For my last marathon my monthly mileage was up to 120 with longest runs around 18-19 miles . I did finish the marathon . To do it again i would be sure to complete a couple of 22-24 mile runs .
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| 2010-01-07 8:23 AM in reply to: #2599560 |
Master 4119 Toronto Bronze member | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge van_paulus - 2010-01-07 1:29 AM Regarding marathon training : intervals tempo and hillwork will make you more efficient but increasing long runs every second week will stress you up pretty bad . So maybe do the harder pace stuff or hillier on the inbetween weeks where you are not increasing your long run mileage . Almost all marathon (90%) of your training run should be at a conversational pace . And weekly mileage should not increase more than 10% per week . For my last marathon my monthly mileage was up to 120 with longest runs around 18-19 miles . I did finish the marathon . To do it again i would be sure to complete a couple of 22-24 mile runs .
I've used FIRST and the approach a couple of times and really liked it! It is an aggressive plan but I still have some of my highest run volume months on the plan. In no way did I feel unprepared for the marathon in 2008 - i got sick the week before the race and it wasn't good but my running partner and i have used it twice for marathons and used a similar approach for 30k's and a half marathon. Personally, I have significantly improved my paces and had really big PB's at the 30k and half marathon distances. My two marathons using it have been disappointing for various reasons but my running partner has been steadily taking time off. But then for me, I am an endurance queen. I have always been able to go long - upping my speed was a weak area so it really helped. I don't think it should be a plan that's used for a first race or even for someone who's never done speed work before. But it's one of those things where there's a certain group who will always tell you that running more is better ... and sure that's there. But there is some unconventional wisdom out there that works too. It can be worth a try. If you're interested, read the book, because i think that's where most misconceptions come from. the guys who wrote it are also triathletes and cross-training is a MUST - at least twice a week. I got it from the library so you might be able to do that if you wanted to check it out. Edited by juniperjen 2010-01-07 8:35 AM |
| 2010-01-07 8:26 AM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 4119 Toronto Bronze member | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Just to add: i had done 3 marathons previous to trying FIRST - on a more traditional but very conservative program. Edited by juniperjen 2010-01-07 8:34 AM |
| 2010-01-07 8:30 AM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 4119 Toronto Bronze member | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Good Morning Team! I was up bright and early this morning for a shorter swim. Again, I was pleasantly surprised that the resolutioners seems to be staying away (at least in the morning). It might be different tonight when I try to hit the treadmill for a temp run. We'll see, i always ignore the 30-minute limit but if it's busy I feel guilty. I hate the 'mill is the best option for tempo runs but with the snow and ice on the ground now ... it's just not as feasible to do more intense work outdoors. :S I like the % of the month thing on the spreadsheet. Gives me good feedback on keeping up with the goals! :D |
| 2010-01-07 9:10 AM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 1887 Brentwood, CA | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Good morning. At work again today, so I'm going to try to get a spin on the trainer today. Hopefully, I can get through the session without having to stop! Appreciate everyone's discussion about Furman's First. I find it really interesting to discuss how people train for certain events. It amazes me at how different the body can be from one individual to the next! Good workouts everyone! |
| 2010-01-07 10:13 AM in reply to: #2582747 |
Expert 1163 | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge G'morning team! I got my strength session in last night, and was going to go to my 6:30am yoga class this morning, but it was cold and snowy out and I didn't feel like dragging myself out of bed... So it's just a run for me tonight (on the treadmill because it's still snowing and it'll probably be a while before the sidewalks are clear). I'll make up for the yoga class by going tomorrow after work. I'm also enjoying all this discussion about the Furman program. I did do a bit of web research, read the book, and all the BT threads about the program before deciding to do it, so I think I'll continue with it for at least a few weeks to see if it's going to work out for me. For what it's worth, the program I'm following is actually designed for first time marathoners, which is why I went for it. The programs they have in the book are for people who've done marathons before and want to get faster... And those start off with higher mileage to start and include 2-3 20-mile runs (the program on their website for first-timers only has one 20-mi run). If anything seems fishy, I'll switch to a more conventional program. The main reason I chose it is because I wanted to work on my swim & bike base over the winter as well, along with keeping up with my strength & yoga workouts, so having to do only 3 runs/wk really appealed to me. |
| 2010-01-07 11:44 AM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 2055 Santa Clarita | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Your planned runs workouts for the spring marathon will totally get you to the finish line. Just be sure to have some easy days before /after the long runs days . Get lots of rest , drink water like a fish and listen to your body so you can avoid injury. |
| 2010-01-07 11:59 AM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 1887 Brentwood, CA | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Trainer workout: WU: 10'(70-75%HR)+5'(30"(97-103%HR)/30"(a))+5'(70-75%HR) MS: 04 x 10'/2' Rest(a) #1: 78-83% HR #2: 84-89% HR #3: 89-94% HR #4: 95-98% HR CD: 05'(70-75%HR) The public accomandated me quite nicely as I made it through the ride without having to go on a call. I'm so frustrated though. After sometime now, I feel I'm making progess with my hip and now I think I'm getting a cold. I guess thats what happens when you have three school aged kids! |
| 2010-01-07 12:00 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 1887 Brentwood, CA | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Oh! On a funny noted, the whole time on the trainer, I couldn't stop thinking about D falling over the handlebars. I just can't imagine how she pulled that off! |
| 2010-01-07 1:24 PM in reply to: #2596200 |
Extreme Veteran 330 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge GoGoGo - 2010-01-05 5:05 PM Since I am on a gym rant...mid-20's female, slimish...walking on the treadmill next to me, reading a magasine!!!! You in some semblence of shape. If you can read a magasine on a treadmill, you are not working hard enough!!!! If you want to tone yourself...work!!! Rant off... Oh well, different goals, I guess. Being a Type A is not easy  I know I'm a day behind on this . . . but I love it when my strength training takes twice as long because I am waiting for machines - where people are sitting between sets either watching the TV (WHO put those in site of strength machines?? I think sometimes people forget where they are) or READING while sitting there - SERIOUSLY? Twice in the last week - reading! I feel better |
| 2010-01-07 2:11 PM in reply to: #2600774 |
Master 2042 Albany, NY | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Well, I've had a crappy couple of days but plan to make up for it today! I got my first swim in finally. Swam 1750 yards before I felt too guilty about my really long lunch break and had to get back to work. It was a little depressing though because I swam at basically the same speed as which I did over the summer when I was swimming regularly. I haven't swam in months... I'm not sure what this means... is it bad because I apparently only have one speed? is it good that I haven't lost that much in terms of the swim? I also have a 20 mile trainer ride planned with my husband tonight. We have some 24 from Netflix to watch so we're going to make a date out of it after we put the kids to bed! Boy, how our dates have changed over the years... |
| 2010-01-07 2:12 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Master 2042 Albany, NY | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge And oh boy... I forgot how HUNGRY swimming makes me. I feel like I could eat a horse!!! |
| 2010-01-07 3:11 PM in reply to: #2600908 |
Master 2429 Falls Church, Virginia | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge rnihill - 2010-01-07 3:12 PM And oh boy... I forgot how HUNGRY swimming makes me. I feel like I could eat a horse!!! Swimming hungries....gotta love 'em! I spent 35 minutes on the trainer this morning, including some one legged drills that were just awful. I suck at them and they suck and I hate them. Can't wait to try them again next time, though, so figure that one out. I feel like I"m trapped in the workweek that never ends. It gets completely dead here after New Year, and sometimes the lack of hustle and bustle drives me crazy. Plus this one beagle has been boarding for three weeks already, with yet another to go, and she hasn't stopped barking or lost her voice yet. Apologies to anyone with a beagle, but I'm at the point where I just can't stand them as a breed. |
| 2010-01-07 4:02 PM in reply to: #2600465 |
Expert 1163 | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge van_paulus - 2010-01-07 11:44 AM Your planned runs workouts for the spring marathon will totally get you to the finish line. Just be sure to have some easy days before /after the long runs days . Get lots of rest , drink water like a fish and listen to your body so you can avoid injury. Will do!! |
| 2010-01-07 4:10 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Expert 1163 | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge Quick question for everyone riding their trainers this winter (which seems like everyone here).... What kind/brand do you have, and do you like it? I want to buy one soon, so I just wanted to get an idea of what people look for/like in terms of features, etc because they all look the same to me (I've only ever ridden outdoors, but now that it's snowy out I probably won't be going out there for a while!) |
| 2010-01-07 4:16 PM in reply to: #2582747 |
Expert 1104 Canada | Subject: RE: The Epiphanies (Team 2) - January Challenge 23k on exercise bike, followed by brisk 5k on dreadmill. Feelin' tired, but strong. Half Mary 1st weekend in Feb. Taper starts in a couple of weeks. The hypothermic half!! |
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