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2010-04-16 1:57 PM

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Champion
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Subject: Where Men Win Glory
Any thoughts on John Krakauer's most recent book? I picked it up from the library last weekend and finished it on my flight home last night.

I'm still digesting it so I'll hold my thoughts for the time being, but would like to here what other people thought about it.


2010-04-16 2:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
Can't wait to read it.
2010-04-16 3:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory

I thought it was a good book, however it left me feeling kind of sick at the end.  I was (and still am) a Bush / Military supporter, but I the case of Pat Tillman (and the other friendly fire incidents in the book) I think Bush and the Military just flat out lied to the public. 

2010-04-16 4:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
T in Liberty Lake - 2010-04-16 3:34 PM

I thought it was a good book, however it left me feeling kind of sick at the end.  I was (and still am) a Bush / Military supporter, but I the case of Pat Tillman (and the other friendly fire incidents in the book) I think Bush and the Military just flat out lied to the public. 



It's sad when we kill our own. It doesn't make the soldiers who die by friendly fire any less worthy of honor and respect. Or, at least it shouldn't. What belittles them is the refusal to acknowledge how they died and to learn from the mistakes. If we pretend it doesn't happen, sweep it under the rug and fail to correct the issues that led to it, it will continue to happen.

This is where I'm at now. I was never a bush supporter. I don't think we should have gone into Iraq. Neither of these things mean that I don't support the military or have great respect for the sacrifices soldiers made. The way the friendly fire incidents in the book were handled by Bush, either directly or through the leadership of his cabinet, was a disgrace to the presidency, the fallen soldiers, their families and to the American people.

One question for you. If you acknowledge that Bush flat out lied to the public, how can you still support him? Not trying to flame, I truly wonder.
2010-04-16 4:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
jmk-brooklyn - 2010-04-16 2:31 PM

Can't wait to read it.


Even though I found it unsettling, it's an excellent book.
2010-04-16 5:46 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory

Do they talk at all about how these types of events (friendly fire) have been handled in other wars?  Without that knowledge I would have a hard time saying that the president mishandled the situation.  There are some things done in the military that since I have never been in the military and I respect that the military is not under the same rules as the general society (since their job is to kill). That I relinquish my right to judge the honor and correctness of the soldier from my standard black and white views. 

Unless you have been there you shouldn't judge.

In other words if this is the standard MO for Presidents handling this situation from previous wars, why should we expect anything diferent.



2010-04-16 5:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
graceful_dave - 2010-04-16 3:46 PM
If you acknowledge that Bush flat out lied to the public, how can you still support him? Not trying to flame, I truly wonder.


First, all politicians lie and when they do they need to be called on it. 

I support the idea that America needed to respond to the 9/11 attack and I support the actions in Afganistan.  Bush and his military leaders lied about how Pat Tillman died, but that does not change my belief that the war was the right thing to do at the time.  Bush had lots of fault but I think that he was the right President for the time our nation was in.  I do not think that our country would be as safe as it is now if there had been a President Gore instead of Bush in the white house on 9/11.
2010-04-16 6:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
I'm about half way through the book right now and I'll probably finish it this week. I'm a big Krakauer fan and I love the way he writes. I didn't know much about Afghanistan other than what I knew from 9/11, but Krakauer gives a solid background on its history and how it came to be with the Taliban even before he gets into Tillman's life.

I don't know if it's me, but I was finding a lot of similarities between Pat Tillman and Chris McCandless (Krakauer's 'Into the Wild'). Both guys were very well read, adventurous, people gravitated to them, and sadly both of them died in unfortunate circumstances.




2010-04-16 7:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
On my reading list....
2010-04-16 9:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
T in Liberty Lake - 2010-04-16 5:51 PM

graceful_dave - 2010-04-16 3:46 PM
If you acknowledge that Bush flat out lied to the public, how can you still support him? Not trying to flame, I truly wonder.


First, all politicians lie and when they do they need to be called on it. 

I support the idea that America needed to respond to the 9/11 attack and I support the actions in Afganistan.  Bush and his military leaders lied about how Pat Tillman died, but that does not change my belief that the war was the right thing to do at the time.  Bush had lots of fault but I think that he was the right President for the time our nation was in.  I do not think that our country would be as safe as it is now if there had been a President Gore instead of Bush in the white house on 9/11.


I said we shouldn't have gone to Iraq. I did not say that about Afghanistan.
2010-04-16 10:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory

I've read all of his previous books, I'll put this one on my list.



2010-04-17 6:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory

wingsfan - 2010-04-16 10:00 PM

I've read all of his previous books, I'll put this one on my list.

 

X2!!

2010-04-17 9:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
Phenomenal read. I admired Tillman before I read the book, I now worship the man, his principles and his legacy. You know what kind of man he was to the core through Krakauer's words. He is a master of telling a story. Not bad for a mountain climbing magazine writer huh?  I have Under the Banner of Heaven up on the Kindle list soon and I will read Mrs. Tillman's book in the near future as well.  I'm going to travel to Tempe in one years time to race in Pat's Run just to honor a true American and a great man
2010-04-18 10:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
I loved the book.  I've read Krakauer's  "Into the Wild" and "Into Thin Air".  While he has come under fire and criticism, I think the man is a master storyteller and gives insights into his characters another author would have a hard time capturing.

That said... I think we do our soldiers who die by friendly fire a HUGE dishonor by trying to cover it up.  When we sweep it under the rug, that sends the message that it is a shameful thing.  We could still treat it as a tragedy that needs to be learned from and honor the brave soldier who perished at the same time. 
2010-04-18 10:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
So as someone who has never read anything by this author, tell me why I should check him out.  What's his stuff about.  Thanks!
2010-04-19 10:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
bradword - 2010-04-18 9:18 PM So as someone who has never read anything by this author, tell me why I should check him out.  What's his stuff about.  Thanks!


Think of his books kind of like the TV show Dateline.  He gives a very well researched report on an incident and then breaks down what lead up to it, what happened, and what it's impact was.

IMO, someone who has never read his books should start with Into Thin Air.  It is about the 1996 Everest expidition that lost 8 climbers.   Krakauer was on the expidition at the time and you get to know who he is.

The next books on my list would be Where Men Win Glory then Into The Wild.

His other book Under The Banner Of Heaven deals with the Mormon religion.  Mostly the fundamentalist / polygamy branch but a little about the LDS Church.  Brad, for some reason I have it in my head that you are LDS.  Therefore, you may or may not what to skip this one.



2010-04-19 12:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory

Touchy subject for me.

First off, I love Krakauer's books and read this immediately upon release. Good book and I love the research and how he really showed Pat's character as a man. 

My opinion on the mlitary part I'll have to keep to myself.

I have a family member that wasn't directly involved in the situation,  but was on the 'sidelines' or was involved peripherally as a Ranger. I use the word "involved" loosely. He knew Pat and was truly rocked by the sitation and subsequent events. Hearing only the parts of the story that he would speak of, is horribly gut-wrenching. To this day, he will not give details of what he knows, but in my whole life it's the only time I've seen him so distraught.

So the book isn't entirely accurate, which isn't suprising, but I'm glad I discussed it with him after I read it as it changed my opinon on the event. The whole thing is just...sad.

But again, I don't think he could have done a better job of capturing what kind of man Pat was.

2010-04-19 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory

bradword - 2010-04-18 10:18 PM So as someone who has never read anything by this author, tell me why I should check him out.  What's his stuff about.  Thanks!

As the other poster said, you MUST read "Into Thin Air".  MUUUSSSST.  Phenomenal book.  I didn't read the others, but ITAir is simply one of the most entertaining and interesting books I've ever read.

2010-06-22 6:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
Just found this and bumped it as I am half way through (on my kindle  ) I have to say I am embarrassed that i had no clue that so many of our men were killed by friendly fire in An Nasiriyah, and that the gov't used jessica Lynch to cover it up, and that the Friendly Fire report was a total whitewash.  The whole thing makes me sick.
2010-06-22 7:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory

Since Chris bumped it, I'll add in that I read Where Men Win Glory a few weeks ago. Very glad that this thread was around since I must have been living in a "Krakauer Free Cave" not to have heard about it when I'm such a big fan of his.

As others have already recommended, I'd start with Into Thin Air or Into the Wild before reading this one, but I found Pat Tillman's story to be very interesting and well told by Krakauer.

I kept thinking back to the similarity in Tillman's dogged adherence to his ideals to Chris McCandless from Into the Wild. The two were very different people to be sure, but I wonder if it was that aspect that drew Krakauer to write about Tillman.

2010-06-23 10:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
I have read all of his books and this is on my list.  I got started with his articles in Outside, especially about mountaineering as I have dabbled in that.  Climbing Denali is still on my Bucket List.

I like his straightforward approach to a story and writing style.


2010-06-24 7:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Where Men Win Glory
wingsfan - 2010-06-22 7:29 PM

Since Chris bumped it, I'll add in that I read Where Men Win Glory a few weeks ago. Very glad that this thread was around since I must have been living in a "Krakauer Free Cave" not to have heard about it when I'm such a big fan of his.

As others have already recommended, I'd start with Into Thin Air or Into the Wild before reading this one, but I found Pat Tillman's story to be very interesting and well told by Krakauer.

I kept thinking back to the similarity in Tillman's dogged adherence to his ideals to Chris McCandless from Into the Wild. The two were very different people to be sure, but I wonder if it was that aspect that drew Krakauer to write about Tillman.



I noticed the similarity between Pat Tillman and Chris McCandless as well. But what struck me even more was the differences despite the similarities. I've always had distaste for McCandless' recklessness and misanthropic ways.

I'd read Eiger Dreams before any of Krakauer's other books.
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