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Arm Turnover When Swimming
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 2008-05-09 2:50 PM |
Member 45 |  Subject: Arm Turnover When SwimmingI've recently been swimming with a swimming instructor and she says that when I want to swim faster I should kick faster. I know that in triathlon swims people try to kick less to conserve their legs for the bike and run. Besides trying to lengthen my stroke, how am I supposed to go any faster in harder efforts like speed and tempo work if I can't kick faster or move my arms faster? Thanks. |
| 2008-05-09 3:03 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
Cycling Guru 15134   Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming Swimming is all about technique. When I had my lessons with my swim coach over the winter she really wanted to work on my stroke count and getting it DOWN. Guess what .... when it went down, I went faster ...... That was because I was learning how to get everything out of each stroke and not just flailing around as much. What sort of qualifications does this instructor have? Do they teach masters classes or coach other triathletes? That "advice" just seems a little suspect to me. |
| 2008-05-09 3:19 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
Extreme Veteran 552 Minnetonka Beach, MN | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming I was recently told by a very reputable coach that kicking at it's most efficient provides 20% of your propulsion, but consumes 60% of the energy.
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| 2008-05-09 3:36 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
Extreme Veteran 639 Lakeland | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming Arm turnover without a gain in distance per stroke (DPS) will not net you any gains in speed. Technique along with gains in swim specific strength will show results. One thing that does happen to many triathletes is if they have ingrained into muscle memory a certain swim speed it is very difficult to work out of without some structured speed work, reduced interval swim times meant to push the body to go faster. Over time the necessary adaptations can and will take place. Continue to work on the rate of arm turnover, get one of the devices that you can set a tempo with Tempo Trainer by Finis. Is your coach used to training competitive swimmers? If so the ability to kick at a high rate is paramount for them but not for you. |
| 2008-05-09 7:24 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
| Member 45 | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming Thanks for your input! My swim instructor does coach mostly competitive swimmers, but also a few triathletes, so I think she does give me advice that pertains more to competitive swimmers. When I'm doing speed work or tempo work should I be increasing my arm turnover to go faster? |
 2008-05-09 7:44 PM in reply to: #1393121 |
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| 2008-05-11 10:09 AM in reply to: #1393046 |
| Expert 750 Harrisburg, PA | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming Daremo - 2008-05-09 3:03 PM Swimming is all about technique. When I had my lessons with my swim coach over the winter she really wanted to work on my stroke count and getting it DOWN. Guess what .... when it went down, I went faster ...... That was because I was learning how to get everything out of each stroke and not just flailing around as much. What sort of qualifications does this instructor have? Do they teach masters classes or coach other triathletes? That "advice" just seems a little suspect to me. I just finished my weekly half hour swimming instruction. The instructor doesn't do tri's but has a daughter who does, so he understands the tri swimming mentality. He had me doing things that seem counterintuitive to what I've researched about tri swimming. He started with my kick. Knows that you really want to conserve here in prep for the bike and run, but my kick was so bad he had me kicking more than I thought I should. This did improve my technique starting on the first session. He was also adamant about me lowering my stroke count. I'm still not very good, but there has been major improvement from when I started. There are still breathing issues, and there are days when I feel I'm almost there. For my last session I was forced to swim 100 yards nonstop about three times. Almost died...several times. Listen to the instructors, but be prepared to adapt and adjust as necessary. Different people have needs. |
| 2008-05-11 5:02 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
| Regular 75 | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming As mentioned above kicking doesn't produce the large speed gains we would hope. It is very common for traditional swim coaches to advocate kicking harder. However, this will send a swimmer's heart rate way up while producing less speed then we would hope for. We see world class and Olympic swimmers kick very hard. However, not all the techniques used by world class and Olympic class swimmers work well for average swimmers. One thing to consider is if one is kicking very hard and wide while rotating to breath, your legs are actually outside your body's "shadow" therefore, producing drag. A more narrow kick produced from the hips with more straight legs helps minimize this drag. One idea for gaining speed is to develop a good catch and pull to maximize propulsion produced by your hand and forearm. Also, if we pull too fast we just disturb the water rather then "grabbing" it to propel ourselves. Marc |
| 2008-05-11 5:05 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
| Regular 545 | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming cndce - 2008-05-09 3:50 PM I know that in triathlon swims people try to kick less to conserve their legs for the bike and run. It probably has more to do with a slower (e.g., 2 beat) kick lending itself better to longer distance swimming. |
| 2008-05-12 8:05 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
| Member 86 | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming i find my self "pulsing" my leg once to both arm rotations.it keeps my heart rae down alowing me to go long.im not fast, but at least i can make im distance under 2 hours and be fresh. if i tr and swim with regular fast kicks, i quickly end up out of air and panicing. |
| 2008-05-12 9:16 PM in reply to: #1393001 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming for tris we train for distance siwmming not sprinting (in which kick is more important), hence if you want to swim faster you need to increase turnover while keeping a nice DPS assuming your stroke is already good. i.e. I can do 13-14 strokes per 25 yds lenght when swimming easy/steady but if I want to swim faster my turnover goes up to 16-17 |
| 2008-05-13 7:02 AM in reply to: #1393001 |
Expert 1014 Virginia | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming interesting discussion. my first session with my swim coach (who is a coach of a swim team at a university), we started working on my kick, then went to working on rotation/balance on my side(i.e. not swimming on my stomach so much). but he does put a lot of emphasis on kicking properly (i used to go nowhere or backwards with my kick, now i finally go forwards). i always assumed that to be a better swimmer, i should swim like a swimmer. and since i don't know much about swimming anyways, i wouldn't really know what to ask to differentiate between tri swimming and regular swimming. and i have read a lot on here about the differences between regular and tri swimming, but still am not quite sure i understand why they are so different. are they only different for those of you who are already *good* swimmers who are trying to be better swimmers? what about those of us who are really slow just learning swimmers? is there really something different to learn from the get go that is different? |
| 2008-05-13 8:23 AM in reply to: #1393001 |
| Modesto, California | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming There is an article in this months Triathlete Magazine discussing workouts to increase arm turnover. |
| 2008-05-13 8:43 AM in reply to: #1393001 |
Master 2277 Lake Norman, NC | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming Start by increasing speed in your turnover with your RECOVERY ARM. Don't be too concerned with a faster pull, just try and concentrate on a faster recovery. Why? Because the "thumb to thigh drill" i.e. always having an arm fully extended in front of you i.e. "front quadrant swimming" - maintains a long waterline which is what's necessary for displacement bodies to go faster. Recovering your trailing arm BEFORE beginning the next arm pull will increase "turnover" and make you faster.
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| 2008-05-13 8:51 AM in reply to: #1398515 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming kimmitri408 - 2008-05-13 7:02 AM interesting discussion. my first session with my swim coach (who is a coach of a swim team at a university), we started working on my kick, then went to working on rotation/balance on my side(i.e. not swimming on my stomach so much). but he does put a lot of emphasis on kicking properly (i used to go nowhere or backwards with my kick, now i finally go forwards). i always assumed that to be a better swimmer, i should swim like a swimmer. and since i don't know much about swimming anyways, i wouldn't really know what to ask to differentiate between tri swimming and regular swimming. and i have read a lot on here about the differences between regular and tri swimming, but still am not quite sure i understand why they are so different. are they only different for those of you who are already *good* swimmers who are trying to be better swimmers? what about those of us who are really slow just learning swimmers? is there really something different to learn from the get go that is different? Just one clarification - the kick IS very important for good swimming as it improves body balance, rotation and rhythm for a faster stroke. Technique wise sprint and distance swimming is the same but the difference between both is the fact that we are not training to go all out for the duration of our swim. We are trying to go as fast as we can while at the same time have enough energy to bike and run after hence kicking for PROPULSION is not a key element for triathlon. IOW yes train like a swimmer for most part, in particular like a distance swimmer (not a sprinter) and just remember that at the end of the day we are triathletes. |
| 2008-05-13 8:57 AM in reply to: #1393001 |
| Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Arm Turnover When Swimming For what it is worth, my buddy will comfortably swim 1:45/100M, and if he turns it up will go 1:35/100M for 200/400M intervals (comfortably). I on the hand, will do about 2:10/100M. But, if you put us together on a pull drill where the kick is no longer a factor, we are much closer over a 100M sprint. He'll still beat me, but not the same way. He grew up swimming this way, and his HR is on cruise control even when kicking. I also see this with the Tri group I swim with - you can tell who was a swimmer before they became a triathlete. I believe that kicking correctly can provide tremendous speed gains, and for the highly practiced should not tire the muscles the same way (over a shorter sprint/olympic distance) a non-practiced swimmer will fatigue. |
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