Race Pace vs. Training Pace (Page 2)

I wouldn't try to push as much as you can.  Make it somewhat harder, but don't kill yourself.

I don't think you need to establish training paces per se.  I think what you need is to experiment some on the runs, vary thing up.  Middle distance runs are good for that, long enough to give you a good idea as to what happens, but not so long you can't finish or they beat you up too bad.

Ray - agreed, that running some tempo and LT efforts WILL help you. Are you on a training plan? What was your nutrition plan for the bike on Sunday?

Kind of, but not really. If you are following one of the plan on the GOLD forum, I know there is speed work and LT work (2 completely different things by the way!)  in the plan. So, there is definitely the opportunity to run fast in training. I certainly wouldn't send you to the wolves without the right preparation.

vrljc - 2008-07-25 8:51 AM

smilford - 2008-07-25 10:36 AM You should die on the run, nothing comes after it!

but what if you are doing a quadathlon? and the 4th sport is the pie eating contest. How would you pace your run? i kid...i kid... seriously, this is an awesome thread. I am a fairly new runner (running for ~6 months) and I average a 9min/mile, but I have done some intervals running at an 8min/mile pace. For my triathlon this weekend, what pace should I shoot for during the run to try to push it, but not so much that I end up walking?

Easy - whatever pace LT to sub LT is...

I think you can use each piece of equipment to your advantage, and you don't need to use it every day. MOST importantly, I would use a HRM on your easy days to ensure you are going easy enough - but at the same time for hard workouts, you know what HARD is, so you don't need a HRM to tell you that you are working hard right? Its much easier to overdo it on the easy days.

I hope that helps.

Close...no such thing as a running recovery run as a triathlete (at least in my opinion). As a runner maybe, but not when you are a triathlete. You should work on speed year round - 30" pick ups and such. Tempo can be done once you start Base 2 and then Race Pace effort in Base 3 and later depending how far out your A race is.

smilford - 2008-07-25 9:03 AM

vball03umd - 2008-07-25 9:55 AM

Can I establish training / racing paces based on RPE?  It seems to be working OK so far, but I hear people talk about going too hard on "easy days" and not hard enough on "hard days." I think I may be guilty of that.

Yes, I've always ran by RPE (ok I do everything by it). Now I believe you need to go out and blow up on a race to really know your body well. But Easy is Easy and Hard is Hard do we really need numbers telling us that? Probably not. Do they make it easier? Yea probably, especially at first since they take out the trial and error period a bit. But I think the trial and error(blowing up at 2miles on a 5k!) that you go through racing/training by RPE is what will make you a good racer. And if you go too hard on a easy day. .you will know once you get to a hard day. Then the next week you will say to your self, OK I got to go easier today because last week I was dead the next couple of days.

You sound like a very experienced runner. Keep in mind your audience on this site. I would be willing to bet 90% of the people here picked up endurance sports within the last 5 years. For you and maybe some other fast guys on this site, that advice is valid, but not for someone trying to run their first triathlon, OLY distance or even IM.

If you have a run goal for the marathon you should be training with paces, yes. Or a HRM, or both. Why not try to maximize training and do your best each time out? If that means strapping on a HRM, give it a shot.

Why what?

How many runs can a triathlete do each week on top of cycling workouts? 4, 5 maybe? They all have to be HIGH quality:
Transition run (Or 2)
Long run
Quality run

On tired legs, there are no recovery runs. Easy running to recover? You'd be better off swimming or cycling easy.

The rest of the paragrpah is basic physiology. If you want to run fast, you need to run fast 50 weeks a year. Keep those fast neurons firing all the time so they understand their purpose. Tempo need to be done early to introduce the body to the bigger demands that are coming up. Once you hit race pace efforts, your race is right around the corner.

Does that help? Make sense?

Ooh, ooh, ooh...  (in Horshak voice) - Biking and swimming are much better options for recovery.  If you S/B/R 2-3 each per week, you want to get the most out of each session, hence a greater density of "quality" running sessions.  While tri-training, you can kill two birds with one stone.  For example, swimming builds general aerobic endurance and swim-specific skills while also acting as a "recovery" day from running.

A pure runner is running 5-10 times per week.  In that case, he/she has 3-4 "quality" sessions and 2-6 recovery runs.

"Quality" runs include long runs, tempo runs, intervals...

You are missing the point. I am talking about 6x30" fast on the run, during a 45' run.
30' of LT work a week, max.
80% of your work is still done at Zone 2 or below.

Same for biking - 75% is aerobic.

Swimming - 50% can be LT.

I am a proponent of high quality training over volume, but that doesn't mean you don't need to put in the aerobic efforts.

BINGO Horshack!!

This could be a long answer. My best answer is for you to get on one of our plans. Leave the thinking to us on that.

If you have 3 runs per week:
1 is long - 2' slower per mile than 10k pace / Zone 2 HR
1 is fast - maybe some 30" efforts mixed in with tempo and or LT work
1 is a brick. - you can add tempo to this or LT work as well.

You need to drop the Zone 3 unless you are training for HIM or longer.

exactly and a little speed will help. I start my beginners with as little as 2x20" (seconds!) 1x per week to get their legs used to running a little faster.

Thanks for the input guys!   I like the idea of varying things up on the middle distance runs.  That's actually what I tried to do yesterday and it worked well I think. 

I'm pretty sure I don't want to train by HR, but I'll consider establishing some training paces to help out with my marathon time goal.  Some days, though, you just feel better than others so that's why I've prefered to run by feel instead of a set pace / heart rate.

But you mentioned tempo runs before.

Also, I wouldn't call that speed work.  I'd call those striders.  McMillan calls it Neuromuscular Training. 

Of course, you and I differ greatly in our approaches, anyway.  First, I think mileage volume, frequency, and consistency are key.  Second, I think every workout is "quality".  I never agreed with the idea of calling specific types of workouts "quality".  It denotes that other types aren't worth doing. 

well, I do have somewhat of a training plan.  Not as structured as alot of folks...but I do put some thought in my races and workouts.  I will admit I didn't get the training I had planned on going into Boulder Peak and I'm in the same boat for Pikes Peak coming up. I get the training to finish the events...but not necessarily to race.  As far as nutrition last Sunday...I had planned on taking 2-gels and the bottle of cytomax during that I had prepared during the bike.  I only did one gel early on the ride and the cytomax.  I thought about the other gel but opted not to...that might have been a mistake.

I didn't want to highjack this thread but if you want to learn how to determine your run race pace for triathlons I started a new thread, CLICK HERE

That's the way I follow for my athletes and my own training; remember that it is just one way to aproach it of course...