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How to determine run race pace? (Page 2)
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 2008-08-05 1:41 PM in reply to: #1582209 |
Not a Coach  11473     Media, PA |  Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace?Donskiman - 2008-08-05 10:30 AM Interesting and informative! At what point should an athlete perform these tests? At the very beginning of when they start as a runner, or after working up to a base of perhaps 25-30 miles/week for 6 months. Looking at race results and logs indicates there are many people who don't run well, wish they could, but only train 5-10 miles/week. Are these tests going to help people like this? These 'tests' are otherwise known as races. Do them as often as you like. If you only train 5-10 miles/week consistently, you have an awfully low ceiling on your potential. But you can still race and see where you stand. |
| 2008-08-05 1:50 PM in reply to: #1559602 |
| Alpharetta, GA | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? Ditto on Daniels Running Formula. I think it is great. When I was more "serious" about running and racing I used Daniels and had excellent results. I am still building a base from essentially nothing (hence mostly HRM right now) but plan to use it again in the new year after I've done some 5K and 10K races. GREAT post. Andi Edited by Anditrigirl 2008-08-05 1:51 PM |
| 2008-08-05 2:09 PM in reply to: #1583025 |
Expert 2555  Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? JohnnyKay - 2008-08-05 12:41 PM Donskiman - 2008-08-05 10:30 AM Interesting and informative! At what point should an athlete perform these tests? At the very beginning of when they start as a runner, or after working up to a base of perhaps 25-30 miles/week for 6 months. Looking at race results and logs indicates there are many people who don't run well, wish they could, but only train 5-10 miles/week. Are these tests going to help people like this? These 'tests' are otherwise known as races. Do them as often as you like. If you only train 5-10 miles/week consistently, you have an awfully low ceiling on your potential. But you can still race and see where you stand. I wasn't asking about me. If you had looked at my log you would have seen that I've already run more than 1400 miles this year. I've lost count, but I've probably done close to 20 races so far this year. I was asking because I've seen too many people do speedwork too soon and end up either injuring themselves or deciding running is too hard and quitting. I see far too few people properly building a solid base. |
| 2008-08-05 3:36 PM in reply to: #1582577 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? mixie - 2008-08-05 11:38 AM keep in mind that VDOT or other calculators (like McMillan) are nothing more than estimators of what you could do based on your fitness for a given open distance run. ( Do not use triathlon run distances as Rick said). If you can run 5-10K very fast but break apart and miss your estimate time for a longer distance race, then you are just missing one key thing: specific training! and FYI - NO, there is not such a thing as 'strenght endurance'rc63413 - 2008-08-05 7:55 AM One very good thing about the VDOT tables is that you can tell where you fall short, speedwork or endurance. If you race varying distances and find you have a higher VDOT value for shorter races than you do at longer race distances (Say 5Ks at 54 and 1/2 marathon 51), generally it means you need to focus on longer runs and endurance building. On the other hand, if the VDOT number for you shorter races is lower than for your longer races, you might increase somewhat the amount of speedwork you do. If you have truly maxed out your training over a number of years, then the differences in VDOT to some extent will reflect your natural ability (fast twitch slow twitch characteristics). Mosty of the time it is the strength endurance department where the indibvidual lacks, hence they will find they have a higher VDOT at short distance relative to longer. The prescription being greater volume and or long runs. It is why most people fall apart in the marathon. They go out based on their VDOT value for shorter races, but can't hold it and blow up. When you marathon, unless you are pretty experienced, you should use 1/2 marathon or 15K's to predict marathon paces and then go out at a slightly slower pace expecting to negative split. If you can't negative split you will be thankful that at least you didn't go out faster and really blow up. VDOT values are very useful tools indeed.
IOW if you run a 5K very fast you have the potential to also run very fast a marathon AS LONG as you do the adequate training. Traithlons are all aerobic efforts, hence even though running a 10K id different than running the marathon of an IM the correlation between what you can do and waht you could do as just a function of proper training and pacing. Both events (10k vs the mary of an IM) even though they are different in lenght both are races which rely on our aerobic energy system, the only difference is the trype of training. |
| 2008-08-05 3:43 PM in reply to: #1559602 |
Runner | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? The best idea ever put forth by Daniels: You wanna train harder? Prove you're ready by racing faster. |
| 2008-08-05 3:50 PM in reply to: #1583542 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? amiine - 2008-08-05 4:36 PM IOW if you run a 5K very fast you have the potential to also run very fast a marathon AS LONG as you do the adequate training. Exactly, and that is always one of the things that is written out on both McMillan and Daniels tables. Every indicator race I've done shows I have the potential to run a 2:58 or so marathon, but I have yet to hit it (last attempt was health related, but I still never got that time even with the training). |
| 2008-08-05 4:01 PM in reply to: #1583140 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? Donskiman - 2008-08-05 3:09 PMI wasn't asking about me. If you had looked at my log you would have seen that I've already run more than 1400 miles this year. I've lost count, but I've probably done close to 20 races so far this year. Sorry for my lack of clarity. 'You' in my reply was generic--not pointed at you specifically. Yes. Most people need to just run more to get 'faster' (they really just need more endurance).I was asking because I've seen too many people do speedwork too soon and end up either injuring themselves or deciding running is too hard and quitting. I see far too few people properly building a solid base. |
| 2008-12-02 8:20 AM in reply to: #1559602 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? *Bump* With the off-seaon upon us and everyone already either training for 2009 or planning their training I figured it would be a good time to bring this thread back to help those trying to set up training zones. Enjoy! |
| 2008-12-02 9:38 AM in reply to: #1559602 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? That's my coach peeps!! Oh yeah...He also said I had to become a runner now. I will be seeing a LOT of Jack Daniels (VDOT) in the coming months. |
| 2008-12-02 11:41 AM in reply to: #1559602 |
| , Texas | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? This is so cool. I just picked up JD's Running Formula last week and guesstimated (no run races for me yet) my VDOT at 43. In my later races this year, my Sprint and Olympic running times fall within the VDOT 43 ranges. I guess this validates that I did something right. We'll see if I did alot right and am able to pull of a HM in 1 1/2 weeks at my Oly run pace. |
| 2008-12-02 12:09 PM in reply to: #1559602 |
| Fishers, IN | Subject: RE: How to determine run race pace? Again, you rock!!! Keep with the coaching gig cause you provide good information. One thing that I think is for certain, everyone who races competitively races by RPE. Heart rate monitors and the like can provide feedback along the way, but in the end RPE dictates what you can and will do. The day that they invent a device that can measure RPE, we have a new revolution in running/racing. I do agree, get some one's time at short distance (800-1 mile) and 10-15k and it becomes obvious where the work should begin. BTW almost always it is endurance (more miles at threshold). This is why I see so often someone who races a marathon all o the sudden finds new PRs at all distances. After high school, few ever race less than a 5k! |
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