General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Share your heart rate? Rss Feed  
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2008-10-01 8:06 PM

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Subject: Share your heart rate?
Hey folks, I'm targeting a 7:25 pace for the NYC marathon to qualify for Boston. I'm now focusing my practice on marathon pacing with an HRM. With 31 days to go to the marathon, I want to make sure I have solid feel for my pace especially because the race isn't flat. I've been very diligent about doing my mileage, with a recovery week this week and hopefully 70+ next week as high mileage this year. My fastest race this year was the Brooklyn Half @ 1:32:09.

What I'm curious about is where is everyone's heart rates at at a long race pace. I understand that it's different for everyone, but I'd just like to get a relative comparison in terms of percentage. Here's a link to my training run this evening:

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/975110

Miles 1,8 and 9 were warmups and cooldowns.

Thanks!




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Read about my BQ efforts!



2008-10-02 9:40 AM
in reply to: #1710374

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
I forgot to add that my max measured heart rate is 192. According to formulas, my max HR is 195.





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Read about my BQ efforts!
2008-10-02 9:57 AM
in reply to: #1710374

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
Not sure how much good this will really do you, but I averaged about 165 bpm at the Austin Marathon last year. That's pretty much what I planned. Austin has a great series of races that build to the marathon: 10k, 10-miler, 20k, 20 miler, 1/2 mary, mary.

I worked on my HR pacing using those. The 10k was at LT. I figured for a 10-miler, I could run a few bpm under that. For the 20k, I dropped it a couple of more, and so on. The 20-miler was about 168-169, so I decided to shoot for mid-160s for the marathon. I might have been able to go a little bit faster in the marathon, but certainly not by much.

My run LT is just under 180 bpm.
Measured max HR is 204.
Resting HR is 48.
2008-10-02 10:15 AM
in reply to: #1710374

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Not a Coach
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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
Frankly, I would not start using an HRM now.  You've got a pace goal.  Go with that.
2008-10-02 10:35 AM
in reply to: #1710374

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
it looks like the biggest hills are miles 1, 2, 16, 17. Other than that you probably want to be near your goal pace. Maybe you would just pay attention to what your HR is during the middle miles and maintain it during the mile 16,17 hill. Then get back on goal pace with any adjustments if needed.
2008-10-02 11:14 AM
in reply to: #1710374

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?

My marathon pace that I use for training is between 85% and 90% of MaxHR. (Accurately measured and not Calculated)

I typically don't race with HR mostly because studies have shown that it tends to result in Sub-Optimal Performance. (On Race Day) But, I have a few friends that do race by HR and seem to contradict the studies. So, I might try it someday.

I usually race by pace and from my training, have a very good idea as to what my pace should be given the course and the weather. (Handicapping weather is definitely an art)

For workouts that include marathon pace miles at the end, I usually start out at about 85% to 88% of Max and work into 90% for at least the last half of the session. For example:

Where my plan calls for a 15 mile Medium/Long Run with 10 @ MP, I will usually do the first 5 miles with a target HR of about 85% but allow it to drift up a bit as I start working harder. Then for the final 5 miles, I will work up to 90% and hold it there for the remainder of the run. I am usually right on the ragged edge since my LT is right around 91% of Max.

Hope this helps



2008-10-02 11:22 AM
in reply to: #1710374

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
Your pace is slower than mine, but my HR numbers are 195 Max, long distance pace is 145-155, and 53 resting.
2008-10-02 11:42 AM
in reply to: #1711772

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
Millco - 2008-10-02 12:22 PM

Your pace is slower than mine, but my HR numbers are 195 Max, long distance pace is 145-155, and 53 resting.


What's your min/mile pace @ 145-155 HR?
2008-10-02 12:04 PM
in reply to: #1711489

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
JohnnyKay - 2008-10-02 11:15 AM

Frankly, I would not start using an HRM now.  You've got a pace goal.  Go with that.


I'm not sure if I will be racing with or without the HRM yet. I'm just trying to avoid what happened to me last year - cramping up at about mile 18 that effectively applied a gradually decreasing pace until the race finish. I worry that if I just stick with my goal pace, the same thing might happen. Last year, I was running at about 7:10. I've got a little more slack this yr (wiser demographic!) with a goal pace of about 7:27.

From what I gather, I think I'm going to target running at ~160bpm (~82%), for my pace miles the next 2-3 weeks, and just get a really solid feel for that pace. This should translate at ~7:25 for me. The pace isn't the source of worry. It's the 82%.

I found this article about heart rate training for those interested.

Edited by agaliza 2008-10-02 12:26 PM
2008-10-02 12:28 PM
in reply to: #1711930

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?

agaliza - 2008-10-02 1:04 PM
JohnnyKay - 2008-10-02 11:15 AM Frankly, I would not start using an HRM now.  You've got a pace goal.  Go with that.
I'm not sure if I will be racing with or without the HRM yet. I'm just trying to avoid what happened to me last year - cramping up at about mile 18 that effectively applied a gradually decreasing pace until the race finish. I worry that if I just stick with my goal pace, the same thing might happen. Last year, I was running at about 7:10. I've got a little more slack this yr (wiser demographic!) with a goal pace of about 7:27. From what I gather, I think I'm going to target running at ~160bpm (~82%), for my pace miles the next 2-3 weeks, and just get a really solid feel for that pace. This should translate at ~7:25 for me. The pace isn't the source of worry. It's the 82%.

But your goal is to BQ, right?  If your HR 'tells' you to slow down and you finish strong in 3:16, what's the point?  Go by pace.

Note:  I'm part of the "wiser demographic" and I won't be wearing an HR monitor when I try to BQ in Philly a few weeks after you.

2008-10-02 1:06 PM
in reply to: #1711930

Vancouver, BC
Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
I've used a HRM for over a year now. This is what I have found:

1. On any given day, HR can vary 10% at the same pace as compared to the day before.

2. Trying to use training HR during a race is hopeless. Race HR is going to be elevated because of excitement and competition.

3. There is some benefit to using a HRM during a race. At the first km/mile marker, hit the lap button to check your pace, compare that to your heart rate and how you're feeling. If you're out faster than your goal pace, then you know you should lower your intensity. If you're out slower than your goal pace, then you know you should raise your intensity. You can use your HR as a relative guide.


2008-10-02 3:17 PM
in reply to: #1712294

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
Thanks guys. After much reading and your opinions, I think what I'll do from here is to use the HRM as a guide, but leave it off on race day and trust my training.

JohnnyKay, good luck on your BQ! I hear the Philly marathon is pretty fast.
2008-10-02 4:16 PM
in reply to: #1710374

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?

Does 7:25 equate to about a 3:14 Mary?  (1:32+5)X2 will roughly give you what  you should be able to do if you handle the nutrition right and have the endurance (long runs).  I don't know how you factor in the hills or how much more fit you are now than when you ran the half.  My heart rate averaged 173 (88% of my heart rate maximum) over a marathon last fall, surprisingly this time I did not see much cardiac drift -though I do plan for maybe 5-8 bpm increase later in the race as I dehydrate some.  I think many books will say something in the 75-85% is typical for a marathon-hence lots of variation only you can find out what you can do as %HRM in this race. 

Before the race, obviously do a run that is maybe 8-10 miles and try to run some of the miles toward the end at your goal pace 7:25.  That will let you know your correlation between pace and HR at goal pace.  In the race, I would try to keep my heart rate reasonably steady (though there obviously will be ups and downs due to the hills) and if you have a GPS check the pace on the flat portions in between when you settle down from the hills. Assume your heart rate will get at least 5-8bpm higher by the end it will happen so start at a slightly lower HR than you plan.  Don't even bother looking at HR during the first couple of miles, there are physiological reasons for it spiking a little high early on that are unrelated to the "excitement" so it will be quite a bit high early.

The pace is the objective not the heart rate, but the heart rate will give you some feedback as you go.

2008-10-02 10:14 PM
in reply to: #1713184

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
rc63413 - 2008-10-02 5:16 PM

Does 7:25 equate to about a 3:14 Mary?  (1:32+5)X2 will roughly give you what  you should be able to do if you handle the nutrition right and have the endurance (long runs).  I don't know how you factor in the hills or how much more fit you are now than when you ran the half.  My heart rate averaged 173 (88% of my heart rate maximum) over a marathon last fall, surprisingly this time I did not see much cardiac drift -though I do plan for maybe 5-8 bpm increase later in the race as I dehydrate some.  I think many books will say something in the 75-85% is typical for a marathon-hence lots of variation only you can find out what you can do as %HRM in this race. 

Before the race, obviously do a run that is maybe 8-10 miles and try to run some of the miles toward the end at your goal pace 7:25.  That will let you know your correlation between pace and HR at goal pace.  In the race, I would try to keep my heart rate reasonably steady (though there obviously will be ups and downs due to the hills) and if you have a GPS check the pace on the flat portions in between when you settle down from the hills. Assume your heart rate will get at least 5-8bpm higher by the end it will happen so start at a slightly lower HR than you plan.  Don't even bother looking at HR during the first couple of miles, there are physiological reasons for it spiking a little high early on that are unrelated to the "excitement" so it will be quite a bit high early.

The pace is the objective not the heart rate, but the heart rate will give you some feedback as you go.



Did you just call me Mary? LOL. I appreciate the laugh :-)

Thanks for the feedback. If 75-85% is typical, then I think I'll be comfortable. I had just thought that it should be more towards 60-70%, so that's why I wanted to get feedback from others.

I'll definitely be doing more mp runs the next 2-3 weeks, and most of my long runs have finished near mp. I think I've good reason to be cautiously optimistic this year. I've realized this year that marathon training is more about eliminating the things that can go wrong during the race, and hopefully I've eliminated quite a bit!
2008-10-03 11:54 AM
in reply to: #1714202

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Fishers, IN
Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?

I think a lot of peoplle have pointed out that you should not rely too heavily on HR.  It is just one bit of data I monitor when I race.  Mostly it is how I feel and the pace I am going, the HR usually just confirms what I already know.  Race by feel, if you've trained properly you know where you are - frankly you don't even need a watch at that point.

It is quite common for me to not even glance at HR more than a couple of times throughout a race, mostly late in a marathon.  I do look at the data some after the race and then a few times prior to the next race of that distance particularly if I haven't raced for awhile.  I think my Garmin helps me learn and make the correlation between pace and the feel of the pace.  I don't hit tracks a lot so I find it very helpful in preparation.

2008-10-03 12:01 PM
in reply to: #1715866

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?

Last year at Baltimore my average through the first 15 or so was around 173 (where it should be for ideal marathon pacing for me) which had me running in the 7:15 average range for splits.  Miles 16 - 20 are basically uphill and I averaged closer to 180 in that portion (more of my 1/2 marathon effort level) and then the last 6 it did not come down much because of the point in the race and general level of effort.  Ran a 3:14:58, so got my second BQ with a minute to spare!

But I did not pace off of it.  If I had, I would have felt obligated to back off on the hill portion, which I didn't do.



2008-10-03 12:05 PM
in reply to: #1710374

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
I ran Boston this year at 89% of my max HR on average.
2008-10-04 5:39 PM
in reply to: #1715933

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Subject: RE: Share your heart rate?
I think that is why it is why whenever you read one of the HR books it will give a very conservative range.  If you have been at it for awhile and are well conditioned and have really pushed your LT up over years of training, you can definitely hold a greater %HRMax or %VO2max pace.
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