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2008-10-29 12:26 PM

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Subject: Spread The Wealth

Why is there such a disparity between the haves and have nots in terms of wealth?  And why has the the gap continued to widen?  Is this a problem?  Can anyone explain why this is economically speaking?  Is capitalism at fault? 

GW Bush policies haven't helped reverse this trend (if it's possible?).  I wonder if either Obama's or McCain's policies could?

 



2008-10-29 12:31 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Runner
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

Here's a better question:

Why does it matter?

2008-10-29 12:33 PM
in reply to: #1773395

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Slower Than You
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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

Most people who work hard have money.

Most people who do not work hard do not have money.

HTFU and earn it.

2008-10-29 12:33 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Champion
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Racine, WI
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
Here's my non-economical .2:

People with more wealth enjoy wealth. We all do. Wealth sometimes creates power and greed. However, not every wealthy person is greedy and looking to destroy those not on their same level. But there are programs and services to help lessen the disparity gap. However, as a society we need to be aware that some people don't have access to these, some people don't care for more assistance, some people have so many barriers (personal attitude, race, mental illness, addictions) to get them to a certain level. I don't have any answer but I know with the economy and several budget cuts this disparity will only widen. Did you know the average newspaper reader is at a 5th grade level? That's a shame! I'm not blaming anyone but I know we all should take responsibilty but unfortunately not everyone feels the same way.
2008-10-29 12:38 PM
in reply to: #1773395

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Expert
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Adrian, MI
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
Here's a better question:

Why does it matter?

If you believe it is a problem then does that make it "matter"?  You might disagree if it "matters" which is fair. 

 

 

 

2008-10-29 12:43 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
Why do we think that if someone has money it means others don't? Last I checked, the rich support many many many more people than the typical person, "spreading the wealth" all without government intervention. I live in a VERY affluent area. The middle class/working class are hurting right now because the rich aren't SPENDING like they were before this. Hurting the rich isn't as good as it sounds.


2008-10-29 12:44 PM
in reply to: #1773422

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Runner
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
fromer - 2008-10-29 1:38 PM
Here's a better question:

Why does it matter?

If you believe it is a problem then does that make it "matter"?  You might disagree if it "matters" which is fair.

I do not believe it is inherently a problem, no.  The very nature of our society, of life in general, is that there are those who have things and those who do not.  Some are better at running a business than others, and are rewarded appropriately.  Some are better at throwing a baseball than others, and are rewarded appropriately (based on what society feels is appropriate, at least).  There will always be those who have more of something than others, and are rewarded for that.

2008-10-29 12:48 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
fromer - 2008-10-29 10:26 AM

Why is there such a disparity between the haves and have nots in terms of wealth?  And why has the the gap continued to widen?  Is this a problem?  Can anyone explain why this is economically speaking?  Is capitalism at fault? 

GW Bush policies haven't helped reverse this trend (if it's possible?).  I wonder if either Obama's or McCain's policies could?

 

Until you define some terms this is just an abstract discussion.   What is the gap, and at what percent is it rising per year?  What is the definition of a "have" and a "have not"?  Why does something have to be "at fault" for it, implying that it's inherently bad (not saying it is or isn't). 

At a simple level, you work hard, you make money.  You don't work hard, you don't make money.  Economically speaking.

2008-10-29 12:55 PM
in reply to: #1773449

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
I think the disparity between wealthy and poor is not nearly as important as the level of poverty. If people have enough money to feed their family, put a roof over their head and clothes on their back, I don't care what difference is between them and Bill Gates. I think the more important factor is making sure that people can do those basic things in life.

I also think a lot of people don't understand necessity and luxury. Cable TV is not a necessity. Dining out is not a necessity. A car that is as nice as the neighbors is not a necessity.
2008-10-29 12:56 PM
in reply to: #1773466

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
eberulf - 2008-10-29 11:55 AM

I think the disparity between wealthy and poor is not nearly as important as the level of poverty. If people have enough money to feed their family, put a roof over their head and clothes on their back, I don't care what difference is between them and Bill Gates. I think the more important factor is making sure that people can do those basic things in life.

I also think a lot of people don't understand necessity and luxury. Cable TV is not a necessity. Dining out is not a necessity. A car that is as nice as the neighbors is not a necessity.

That's why you only get the basics, like beer, cell phones and a flat screen TV with satellite, not cable!

Edited by bradword 2008-10-29 12:57 PM
2008-10-29 1:02 PM
in reply to: #1773449

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Expert
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Adrian, MI
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

I did a cursory google search and came across this NewsHour article from 2002.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/july-dec02/democracy_7-17.html

Here's an interesting quote from the article:

Phillips thinks this new piracy explains why the top fifth of all Americans now earn 11 times more than the bottom fifth -- the industrial world's greatest gap. And history, he claims, proves such gaps unsustainable. Consider the 1800s, he says, when the government let wealth grow unchecked and inequality first soared. 

Until you define some terms this is just an abstract discussion.   What is the gap, and at what percent is it rising per year?  What is the definition of a "have" and a "have not"?  Why does something have to be "at fault" for it, implying that it's inherently bad (not saying it is or isn't). 

At a simple level, you work hard, you make money.  You don't work hard, you don't make money.  Economically speaking.



2008-10-29 1:03 PM
in reply to: #1773488

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Runner
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
I'm still not sure what you are driving at.  What is your position?
2008-10-29 1:07 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

Accdg to a website I just googled (IOW, can't vouch for it), top 25% earns an AGI of about $64K.  damn robber barons!!!!!

That's what I mean about defining terms.   I am reading your post like it's about the uber rich.  In reality, there has always been and always will be an uber rich, but these percentages have nothing to do with them.  You're talking about "wealthy" when in reality that's less than a plumber makes



Edited by ChrisM 2008-10-29 1:08 PM
2008-10-29 1:09 PM
in reply to: #1773403

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
bcart1991 - 2008-10-29 1:33 PM

Most people who work hard have money.

Most people who do not work hard do not have money.

HTFU and earn it.



If only it were that easy.



2008-10-29 1:11 PM
in reply to: #1773513

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
ChrisM - 2008-10-29 2:07 PM

Accdg to a website I just googled (IOW, can't vouch for it), top 25% earns an AGI of about $64K.  damn robber barons!!!!!

That's what I mean about defining terms.   I am reading your post like it's about the uber rich.  In reality, there has always been and always will be an uber rich, but these percentages have nothing to do with them.  You're talking about "wealthy" when in reality that's less than a plumber makes




$64k year in Boston won't allow you an aparment and food for you and a child. Much less daycare, auto insurance, and health insurance.

2008-10-29 1:13 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

Im only 19 years old and continue to gain infotmation on how these topics work.....or whatever......

It doesnt bother me when i see people wth a lot of money, or no money. (sometimes it does)

But i beleive the true problem lies when people "with" the money.....do absolutely nothing!! with it. They are retarded and spend their money on expensive houses, superplanes, weapons of mass "waste", media, stealth bombers, money spent on war, space exploration, drugs, blahhhh blahhhh blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh im sure many people could widen the list of billion dollar wastes of money! and thats what rattles me. People with money need to understand what their money could do for everyone and anyone.........

(wrote this in 2 seconds, but you should get the point) Please expand, i will come back.

P.S, mony would be nice, but i enjoy life and really only need money for new tri shoe, tri bike, FOOD, and race entry fees. Hopefully my job at Loblaws grocery can gimmie the help i need.



Edited by Jyles16 2008-10-29 1:14 PM


2008-10-29 1:15 PM
in reply to: #1773523

Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
D.Z. - 2008-10-29 2:11 PM
ChrisM - 2008-10-29 2:07 PM

Accdg to a website I just googled (IOW, can't vouch for it), top 25% earns an AGI of about $64K.  damn robber barons!!!!!

That's what I mean about defining terms.   I am reading your post like it's about the uber rich.  In reality, there has always been and always will be an uber rich, but these percentages have nothing to do with them.  You're talking about "wealthy" when in reality that's less than a plumber makes

$64k year in Boston won't allow you an aparment and food for you and a child. Much less daycare, auto insurance, and health insurance.

Or DC. Or most major cities. Many, many of my single friends and I make below this (sure, there are some people who make loads, but certainly not all of my friends who work at non-profits downtown). We manage, but that money doesn't get us too far.



Edited by wurkit_gurl 2008-10-29 1:16 PM
2008-10-29 1:19 PM
in reply to: #1773527

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
wurkit_gurl - 2008-10-29 12:15 PM
D.Z. - 2008-10-29 2:11 PM
ChrisM - 2008-10-29 2:07 PM

Accdg to a website I just googled (IOW, can't vouch for it), top 25% earns an AGI of about $64K.  damn robber barons!!!!!

That's what I mean about defining terms.   I am reading your post like it's about the uber rich.  In reality, there has always been and always will be an uber rich, but these percentages have nothing to do with them.  You're talking about "wealthy" when in reality that's less than a plumber makes

$64k year in Boston won't allow you an aparment and food for you and a child. Much less daycare, auto insurance, and health insurance.

Or DC. Or most major cities. Many, many of my single friends and I make below this (sure, there are some people who make loads, but certainly not all of my friends who work at non-profits downtown). We manage, but that money doesn't get us too far.

also to note, this income would probably qualify for maybe a 200K mortgage loan.  No wonder we've made such a mess of things...

2008-10-29 1:19 PM
in reply to: #1773527

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Runner
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
wurkit_gurl - 2008-10-29 2:15 PM
D.Z. - 2008-10-29 2:11 PM
ChrisM - 2008-10-29 2:07 PM

Accdg to a website I just googled (IOW, can't vouch for it), top 25% earns an AGI of about $64K.  damn robber barons!!!!!

That's what I mean about defining terms.   I am reading your post like it's about the uber rich.  In reality, there has always been and always will be an uber rich, but these percentages have nothing to do with them.  You're talking about "wealthy" when in reality that's less than a plumber makes

$64k year in Boston won't allow you an aparment and food for you and a child. Much less daycare, auto insurance, and health insurance.

Or DC. Or most major cities. Many, many of my single friends and I make below this (sure, there are some people who make loads, but certainly not all of my friends who work at non-profits downtown). We manage, but that money doesn't get us too far.

So....we should blame someone for this issue?  Is this an issue?  I'm not sure what point people are trying to make.

2008-10-29 1:22 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

To clarify, from an earlier post, data from tax returns (2006, I believe)  I needn't point out that it appears that the uber rich (1%) pay quite a bit more in taxes to help those less fortunate?

For the record, here's The Tax Foundation's analysis of who pays what:

 

Number of Returns with Positive AGI

AGI ($ millions)

Income Taxes Paid ($ millions)

Group's Share of Total AGI

Group's Share of Income Taxes

Income Split Point

Average Tax Rate

All Taxpayers

135,719,160

$8,122,040

$1,023,739

100%

100%

-

12.60%

Top 1%

1,357,192

$1,791,886

$408,369

22.06%

39.89%

> $388,806

22.79%

Top 2-5%

5,428,766

$1,185,828

$207,311

14.60%

20.25%

 


17.48%

Top 5%

6,785,958

$2,977,714

$615,680

36.66%

60.14%

> $153,542

20.68%

Top 6-10%

6,785,958

$865,430

$109,060

10.66%

10.65%

 


12.60%

Top 10%

13,571,916

$3,843,144

$724,740

47.32%

70.79%

 

> $108,904

18.86%

Top 11-25%

20,357,874

$1,692,686

$158,413

20.84%

15.47%

 

9.36%

Top 25%

33,929,790

$5,535,830

$883,153

68.16%

86.27%

> $64,702

15.95%

Top 26-50%

33,929,790

$1,569,769

$110,023

19.33%

10.75%

 


7.01%

Top 50%

67,859,580

$7,105,599

$993,176

87.49%

97.01%

> $31,987

13.98%

Bottom 50%

67,859,580

$1,016,441

$30,563

12.51%

2.99%

< $31,987

3.01%


 Source:  http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html

2008-10-29 1:25 PM
in reply to: #1773546

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Parker, CO
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
Scout7 - 2008-10-29 12:19 PM

So....we should blame someone for this issue?  Is this an issue?  I'm not sure what point people are trying to make.

First I want to clarify that I am not in favor of redistribution of wealth.  But maybe the OP is trying to bring to light that there continues to be a growing disparity between the rich and the middle class.  I don't know what the answer is but I do believe that this is a reality.  I often wonder what will be the gap by the time my kids are trying to make a living?



2008-10-29 1:26 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Master
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Atlanta, Georgia
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
One take on the difference between 'haves' and 'have nots' is ability to afford health care insurance..

The number of gainfully employed Americans who don't have healthcare insurance has been increasing for some time:

http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

Frequently, these are folks working minimum wage service jobs but increasingly it's becoming a middle class issue, too. I'm not so sure it's a question of 'work harder' or 'make better choices with regards to consumption' anymore.
2008-10-29 1:27 PM
in reply to: #1773563

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Runner
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

rayd - 2008-10-29 2:25 PM
Scout7 - 2008-10-29 12:19 PM

So....we should blame someone for this issue?  Is this an issue?  I'm not sure what point people are trying to make.

First I want to clarify that I am not in favor of redistribution of wealth.  But maybe the OP is trying to bring to light that there continues to be a growing disparity between the rich and the middle class.  I don't know what the answer is but I do believe that this is a reality.  I often wonder what will be the gap by the time my kids are trying to make a living?

No one has pointed out how or why this disparity might be bad.  So what if there's a gap?  Does it make any real difference?

2008-10-29 1:31 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Elite
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Raleigh
Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth

i find it very interesting that majority of persons who do not have money want there to be a level playing field; for there to be little "gap between the haves and the have nots". Especially when "our" culture celebrate people who are better than others in ever other way.
Such as.....
Sports of all kinds- all the people who are faster, stronger, can jump higher, throw faster and farther etc...
Spelling Bee's-the people who can actually spell
MENSA-- smarter than the rest of the folk
Models and Glamour mags-- prettier than most
TV and movies-funneir and more dramatic than most

I could go on and on and list things that Americans celebrate or take a deep fasination in that puts one section of a demographic above all others. I do not understand why the wealthy is not the same. I hold Opra and Bill Gates in the same esteem as Mike phelps and micheal Jordan.
as triathletes we look at these pro's and dream we were that good at this sport and work everyday to be better at it; we train to get better. WE DONOT wish for USAT to make rules to make the faster slower and be more at our level of the BOPers do we?

So why do we do this with wealth? Why do we want the wealthy to give up what they have worked hard for or come by from their family (see good running genes) and give it to the people who do not have as much. When we do not do that to anyone else in society?


2008-10-29 1:36 PM
in reply to: #1773379

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Subject: RE: Spread The Wealth
It might.  There are plenty of historical examples of the "have-nots" taking matters into their own hands and forcibly redistributing the wealth of the "haves".  I'd like to think we've matured as a society to the point where we find better solutions than revolution or other violent forms of social unrest, but I think people are capable of some pretty insane things if pushed far enough.
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