esteil's Group - CLOSED Ultras (iron on up 50k on up) (Page 3)

Kelly - when you are ready with a race in mind the training plan will take shape.  Like anything else you do not have to hit EXACTLY what is on the training plan - its just a plan.  I very seldom do back to back long runs..I have found consistency over the long haul gets you to the end result.  Now if you are looking for speed or trying to break some record then the back to backs are huge.  Obviously you are not starting out with some multiday event so I don't think the back to backs are important in the beginning.  Getting in consistent running is where it is at.

Figuring out your nutrition is a huge component to the ultras, which if you haven't picked up yet, you will.  What works for one might not work for the next.  If you have any ultras in your local area I might suggest going and volunteering at a rest stop to see how the athletes look at certain points in the game, and the kinds of foods they are eating (or not).  The observation phase can be extremely beneficial down the road.

~eileen

Esteil, 

 thanks it's true the blog is very deceiving because i stopped blogging about 2/3 of 2008 to get sucked into facebook...i typically run about 25ish a week more or less depending on if there is a race near. i would say 95% of that is on trails.. i  will try to remember to blog..thanks for your help.

Sure,

The ultra is April 11 and IMCDA is June 21. 

Ok, I am really slow on the ball (and on the run !!!!)  I was wondering if I can join in?  I am looking at ramping up into Ultra's (trail runs)this year.  Probably going to start with a 50k, then jump up from there.  The only issue is I have no idea where to begin!? 

A little background--- I have done 2 Ironman's, 6 1/2 Ironman's, Several 1/2 Marathons, and Several various other tri's, and runs.  I love to Adventure race (although the longest one was 13 hours) and eventually would love to get into 24hr, stage races, and week long races!

Is it too late to beg for some guidance?! 

Hey Mike,

I did IMCDA last year and would be happy to provide any info that I can.  I have an incredibly detailed write-up of the bike course that a co-worker provided to me if you are interested.  Recommendation: do as many of your long rides in the hills as possible.

I'm sure you have a really good handle on it, but just gotta say that I would be very cautious about doing an ultra at that point in your IM training.  This is about the point where your volume starts to ramp up pretty quickly and, for me personally, the recovery time required after a mary (I'm doing my first ultra in September) would have put me way behind.  Also, after the physical/mental/financial investment you've put into IM training, you certainly DO NOT want any overuse issues cropping up just before or during the race.

Eileen,

Can I join your group?  I'm the guy last summar that did Kona.  I got a message from you and I know Andrew Dollar.  I hope you remember me.

Anyway, I'm not doing anything long this year but I am starting to put my plan together for a bid to do Badwater several years down the road.  I think my plan to build the qualifications to get into Badwater will look like this:

• 2010
• Spring 50 miler (Mississippi 50)
• Fall 100 miler (Pinhoti 100)
• 2011
• Ultraman Canada
• 2012
• Another 100 miler (WS, Vermont or Leadville)
• 2013
• Pacer for someone else at Badwater
• Submit application
• 2014
• Race Badwater

This is all still early in the thought process.  I know I want to do Badwater one day and I know I have to build the right athletic resume. 

That said, I'd like to follow your mentor group along to get an idea of training for an ultra marathon.

Never too late.  This apparently will be the free for all ultra thread :-) (THATs a really good thing btw!)

Obviously the first place to start is pick a target month for a race and then pick a race you can get into.  From there, if you need help building a plan - there is plenty of ultra voices on here to help (myself included). 

Biggest thing right now would be basic building phase.  If you haven't found a good trail shoe that would be a good equipment place to start.  Only other major equipment is for you to decide if you prefer a camelback (most likely for ARs) or how to carry things - hip holster or hand holster.  Nothing wrong with getting both, any race you can switch on whim what feels good to carry.

welcome to the ultra thread!

I'd say shoot for the 40 then. You won't know until you go.  Do figure out though which one is your A race - which one is more important, and that will tell you which one to reach for.  The distance is nothing shy of just a number.  You can repeat a pace (very important) and hold that pace, the rest is in the head.  caveat - the head part is so long as you have a base and trained, and it sounds like you do.

It's late and I just got home, so excuse me for not remembering when your events are, but if possible try to build a bit more than the 25 for a few weeks if you want a good 40.  Depending how far out you are, I would shoot for a 50kish before the 40miler in training.  If you don't have time for that, try to get in at least one day of running where you do 2-3 hrs in the AM then an early evening run (or time frame close to expected finish of the 40) of 2ish hrs for one of your long running days.
This concept is part mental, part physical.  The idea of doing the 2 in a day for the later one is to simulate what it feels like to run for that long of a day.  Don't get hung up on how long the day is from the first run to the last run, but instead visualize how quickly it goes and it won't be so bad on your bod in the race.  In the middle of the day take in real food (like you would at a rest stop) and stay in your running shoes.  Maybe switch out socks and practice lubing up the feet (or powder whichever route you use).

If this doesn't make sense ask me to clarify - it's late and I know I won't get to this until later in the week if not right  now.

Hey Mike - see what Bill says above.

The dates of your races are close together.  Figure out what your goals are - which one do you want to do well at?  You can accomplish both, but the timing is close.  10 weeks is plenty of time for recovery, however, you don't know how the body is going to handle things. 

If your 50 miler is really important to you, hammer the event and know that the body will recover for IMCdA just don't be disappointed if your legs feel heavy for IM.  However, if your more important event is IM then get through the 50 miler (omg, I just laughed at myself for saying get through a freakin race - no matter the distance its more than just getting through!).  I think you get the idea.  Be true to yourself that which is important. 

Very happy to see 10 weeks wedged in there.  If it was less than a month I would probably suggest you to bail on one or the other.  Just know that the timing of your training is going to hurt your bike build while you run build.  Because it is a run though, that fitness will still help to carry over for IM.  I'd be more concerned if it was a very hilly IM. 

I can't remember if this is your first 50 miler (sorry it is late) if it is, I am sure you have read many people compare it to the pain of an iron.  With that thought in mind, are you ok with the pain of an iron and turning around 10 weeks later for another one?  Only you have that answer.  Do not listen to what others tell you, only you can assess where you are at.  I'll tell you to go for it and listen to your body - which is why I want you to read what Bill says above.  We are your devils advocate.

If you decide to do both (yeah :-) ) then know the training for the 50 miler will take away from your bike training.  However, you will have a killer run base.  Not to mention the time on your feet base.  It is an odd feeling when you go from one long event to another event where that distance becomes shortened (ie the run being all day to just 5ish hrs).  Think you will find a different part of you in your head you didn't know existed.

Where in Oregon?  I am up in Seattle.... I wouldn't mind digging in a little?!

Paulette - excellant idea.

I've done a crap job at reigning everyone in.  Sorry its been a hard (but glorious!) start of the New Year and my organizational skills this last 3 weeks are crap.  After I get through the next 4 days I can sit down and try to put some sense into what events/races you guys are all doing.  I have no problems throwing out generalizations, but prefer to help zone in on each athletes' individual needs.  Please others that have done the events jump in and help.

For those just reading remember with ultras this is truly a n=1 experience.  Women and men go through different things, and we all have different experiences to bring to the table.  Feel free to share with each other.  PLEASE share with each other - there are no right or wrong answers, just space to compile what others are going through.  The training I've done is not conventional nor will it be this upcoming year - hopefully the same goes for you.  That doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it wrong.  The sweeping generalizations you can gain from each other you can apply to your own training.  At the base of it though, know your family and job come long before training and raceing.  THEN comes the training and the body and mind are the most important.  You fry a body part (physically) or shut down the kidneys or adrenals there is a slump you will fall into you want no part of - not to mention long term ramifications.  The mind will either make you or break you.

***If I haven't mentioned it enough with the ulras STAY ON TOP OF PROTEIN*** one of my friends (ok, 2) have ended up in the hospital for ignoring this factoid.  Without it, and apparently if you move fast enough the body gets flooded with breakdown of muscle creating a perfect blend for the body to wreck havoc on itself.  I think its called Rhabdomylolosis (its late - my mind is shot).  just know you've been warned to keep an eye on protein.  AND the important sodium/potassium/calcium/magnesium balance.  Hypo/hyper anything is bad.  Baseline is good.

If you feel like you are spending too much money on something for this sport, you probably are (except for the bike, your bike has always earned new shoes - ok, slight bias).  With the ultras, old school and getting by with basics, you know, like real food generally applies here.  Unlike other races out there, you'll find next to zero egos in ultras (if you think they are there, that is just a misunderstanding, there is zero room for it - too long of an event and everyone gets beaten down).  That fear you hold at the start line, no matter whom is standing next to you - they are still concerned about the outcome.  One true fact that holds with ultras - Everyone enters, you just don't know when or where you exit.  Oh, and par for course - you will most likely say at some point:  I am never doing this again.  Go ahead and laugh and get it out of the way, because somehow the body knows to block out the bad and only remembers the good.  Not sure how any of this happens, maybe they slip us all a pill somewhere or the air is pumped in, but I swear, you will say this, really mean it, maybe even stomp off the course, but you'll be back, everyone always comes back.  It's a family unlike anywhere else.  To the old family members - please share, to the new, we're glad  you joined :-) hope you brought a sick sense of humor, you're going to need it as you discover new things about yourself and your environment.

Thats all I got at this hour.  My feet are on fire and I need some sleep.

Hope everyone is having a good start to the New Year!

Thanks Bill, Thanks Eileen!

We have some "hilly" areas, but nothing that really compares to CdA (I've talked to a local triathlete who has done CdA. )  I do plan to hit the hills we have as much as possible and I've offered another local triathlete that I'd buy a copy of the CdA course if I could ride their computrainer to get a feel for it. 

CdA is my "A" race, so I'm not looking to go nuts with the ultra.  I'm looking at it more as a chance to go 10-12 hours and work on nutrition (a local ultrarunner said "you do the first ultra to finish, save the PR for later" ).  I expect it will also be a chance to test the mental fortitude for late in the day.  I'll probably go light on the bike that week and the week after, but otherwise keep up on the cycling per my training plan. 

This ultra is a 10-mile loop with about 1800 feet of climbing per loop.  I'm not looking to set any speed records, figuring about 2:00-2:15 for the first couple loops and 2:30 for the last loops. 

Mike et. al.,

As noted in an earlier post, I am an "ultra virgin" and looking to do my first 50 miler in September.  Trying to develop the rest of my race schedule around this and a 24 hour bike race in June.

Recommendations on a training plan for the 50 miler? 

Eileen:  Does your caution re protein cover ultra runs, or is it specific to ultrairon?  Other than payday bars and PBJ, I did not do well with protein during my training for IMCDA....

Eileen,

looks like you might be having PC issues.  At any rate to answer your questions, here are my races for this year:

1/25 - Callaway 1/2 Mary - R
2/8 - Red Top Rumble - R
2/15 - Tundra Time Trial - R
3/7 - CRR 10k - R
3/29 - ING 1/2 Mary - R
4/25 - Tanner Sprint - R
5/30 - Macon HIM - R
6/13 - West Point Lake Oly - R
6/28 - Ridges 5K OWS 
7/4 - Peachtree 10k
7/12 - Chattanooga Oly - R
8/2 - Old Soldiers 10k
8/22 - PTC Sprint
9/27 - Augusta 70.3 - R
12/?? - St. Jude, Kiawah or Rocket City

My main goal for this year is 5:00 in Augusta.  Depending on that, I am planning on revisiting the marathon distance in December.  From there, to get ready for a potential spring 50 miler, I was going to do a marathon in Jan and Feb also.  I'll see how I react to the 50 miler before I commit to the 100 miler.

Yes, fully recovered from Kona.