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2009-05-16 10:12 AM

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Subject: Climbing out of the saddle
I am very new to this whole sport. Just training for my first sprint. I have found I really have trouble climbing out of the saddle. It's a balance issue. When i stand up and peddle a few times, I feel as if I am going to fall over. I have fairly strong legs (I max squat about 650 on a good day), so I am able to mash out moderate climbs from the saddle. However, I realize that mashing gears is not the most effective way to train.

Anyone else have trouble climbing out of the saddle when they started? Any tips that may help me improve, or is it just something I need to keep doing and get a feel for?

I did try a spinning bike, but the stability of a stationary bike doesn't really replicate the shakiness I feel on the real thing.

Thanks!


2009-05-16 11:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle

vrocco - 2009-05-16 11:12 AM I am very new to this whole sport. Just training for my first sprint. I have found I really have trouble climbing out of the saddle. It's a balance issue. When i stand up and peddle a few times, I feel as if I am going to fall over. I have fairly strong legs (I max squat about 650 on a good day), so I am able to mash out moderate climbs from the saddle. However, I realize that mashing gears is not the most effective way to train. Anyone else have trouble climbing out of the saddle when they started? Any tips that may help me improve, or is it just something I need to keep doing and get a feel for? I did try a spinning bike, but the stability of a stationary bike doesn't really replicate the shakiness I feel on the real thing. Thanks!

Actually I almost never come out of the saddle to climb at all.... and I am down in WV... I climb a fair bit. 

I cannot remember which thread it was in, but I read at some point that getting out of the saddle was only beneficial if your height to weight ratio was at a particular level.... For my weight I remember calculation I would only need to grow to 7.5 feet for it to work. 

I go to the gear that allows me to keep a decent cadence going up and then crank it going down the other side.  But... others will have differing opinions to be sure.

 

2009-05-16 11:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
I rarely get out of the saddle for climbs.  But, if you really just want to get out of the saddle and get better at it... ride every climb out of the saddle.  You'll eventually get better at it.  I've been cycling less 9 months, but have noticed it is easier to get out of the saddle as my legs have gotten stronger, but I still prefer to stay in the saddle mostly.  Try not to mash, try to keep constant force around the entire rotation.  I have found out the hard way that mashing is not a good idea for really long rides with lots of hills.
2009-05-16 11:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle

It sounds like working on your balance would benefit you. imho

Yoga is good for balance, doing different balance drills on a balance ball, do some balance drills on your bike with tennis shoes going very slow and trying to hold a specific line at low speed.

 

2009-05-16 11:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
To become better at riding out of the saddle, practice on a quality stationary bike. It is not hard to learn. as a general rule of thumb: riding out of the saddle provides more power, but is less efficient. I only get out of the saddle if I cannot keep my cadence (85 - 95) on a hill.
2009-05-16 11:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
vrocco - 2009-05-16 9:12 AM
I feel as if I am going to fall over.

Kinda hard to tell what the problem is from your description but this sentence makes it appear you may have a gear selection problem. I climb out of the saddle a lot. For me it's faster and uses slightly different muscles so it feels good in the middle of a long ride.

Being in the right gear is important. You want your cadence to remain pretty high, although not as high as spinning up the hill. You also don't want too little resistance on the pedals (too low a gear) so it's kind of a fine line. For me when climbing in the saddle, I consider my comfort in each gear as easy, medium, hard. If I'm currently "easy-medium", when I get out of the saddle, I'll shift up a gear (harder to pedal). If I'm already pressing "hard" in a gear, I'll almost always just get of of the saddle for a while in that same gear. Then, I'll sit back down and see if I can maintain that gear. Often, rather than shifting down (easier to pedal), I can get into a comfortable rythm just alternating back and forth like that which allows me to stay in that higher gear.

Also while out-of-the-saddle, don't be afraid to:

* shift gears both direction if you need to. Just lay off the pedal force a bit while the chain moves.
* rock the bike left/right a bit to get some extra leverage.
* concentrate on pulling up on the back of the pedal stroke. For me, pushing the pedal is natural so I think about pulling.


2009-05-16 2:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
When I was learning how to climb out of the saddle, my biggest problem was also a balance issue.  I found that practicing standing up on the bike, not even pedaling but just coasting while standing on the pedals, helped me get used to having a higher center of gravity.  When I was totally comfortable standing up on the pedals to balance, I found it much easier to get up out of the saddle and climb.
2009-05-16 2:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle

The replys to this thread have already covered good points.  I will just add - keep an eye on your cadence.  Make sure it is not too fast when you get out of the saddle.  You might need to go up one or two gears when you stand on the pedals to maintain a smooth pedal stroke.  Also make sure you are positioned well on the bike.  Your weight should be over the pedals, with your bum about level with the nose of the saddle.

Other than that, just practice.

2009-05-16 2:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle

Squat 650 lbs!!! I doubt that very very very much!!!!! I played  D1 college football as TE and I couldn't squat close to that. In fact my max squat was 525lbs at a playing weight of 225lbs. Sure on a hipsled or box squat yes.... easy, but true squat NO WAY.


I probably could not even do 350 lbs now.

Unless your name is Sven or Magnus you ain't squatting 650!

2009-05-16 2:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle

I found that spin classes really help me correct my balance for climbing out of the saddle...I'd brought some bad habits from the mtn bike to road riding when I started late last year.

Also, as someone's sig line says, 'the only way to get better at climbing hills, is climbing more hills'.

2009-05-16 2:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
Jimmydeuce - 2009-05-16 2:41 PM

Squat 650 lbs!!! I doubt that very very very much!!!!! I played  D1 college football as TE and I couldn't squat close to that. In fact my max squat was 525lbs at a playing weight of 225lbs. Sure on a hipsled or box squat yes.... easy, but true squat NO WAY.


I probably could not even do 350 lbs now.

Unless your name is Sven or Magnus you ain't squatting 650!

650 isn't inconceivable.... There's no way I could squat that much (I can barely squat my own body weight, lol), but people who (for example) have a background doing construction work or something have tremendous lower-body strength.  My family are all Italian peasant-type construction dudes, and I remember watching my dad squat well over 600 lbs. when I was a kid.  Of course, he spent the better part of his youth carrying 200-lb. sacks of cement up scaffolding, so...

It's kind of rude to assume someone's lying just because you can't do what they say.   Training for tri is different from D1 football training, which is different from powerlifting, which is itself different from just being really f-ing strong from doing hard physical labor for a long time.  I mean, you can't give birth, but would you tell someone they were BS-ing if they said they'd been in labor for 24 hrs?



2009-05-16 3:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
Jimmydeuce - 2009-05-16 2:41 PM

Squat 650 lbs!!! I doubt that very very very much!!!!! I played  D1 college football as TE and I couldn't squat close to that. In fact my max squat was 525lbs at a playing weight of 225lbs. Sure on a hipsled or box squat yes.... easy, but true squat NO WAY.


I probably could not even do 350 lbs now.

Unless your name is Sven or Magnus you ain't squatting 650!



Dude, you don't know the op! Yeah, 650 is a bigass number, but maybe he is this 16yo kid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNYy5gWYiKA

I'm just sayin'...

Edited by greyg8r 2009-05-16 3:15 PM
2009-05-16 3:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
Thanks for the comments. Lots of good tips here. Gives me some things to work on.

Like I said, 650 is a max. 1 rep. And it certainly doesn't happen every day. More to the point was the fact that I have very strong leg muscles, but not necessarily endurance muscles. I am not really built like a triathlete. I worked for years doing concrete work (Italian family like someone mentioned) and lifting for size and strength. Now I am trying to slim down with more running and starting in the triathlon training.

Hopefully, someday I will be able to say that I can't squat my body weight either

I didn't mean for this to become a flame war. Thanks to all who offered tips and tricks.
2009-05-16 4:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
kat_astrophe - 2009-05-16 3:53 PM
Jimmydeuce - 2009-05-16 2:41 PM

Squat 650 lbs!!! I doubt that very very very much!!!!! I played  D1 college football as TE and I couldn't squat close to that. In fact my max squat was 525lbs at a playing weight of 225lbs. Sure on a hipsled or box squat yes.... easy, but true squat NO WAY.


I probably could not even do 350 lbs now.

Unless your name is Sven or Magnus you ain't squatting 650!

650 isn't inconceivable.... There's no way I could squat that much (I can barely squat my own body weight, lol), but people who (for example) have a background doing construction work or something have tremendous lower-body strength.  My family are all Italian peasant-type construction dudes, and I remember watching my dad squat well over 600 lbs. when I was a kid.  Of course, he spent the better part of his youth carrying 200-lb. sacks of cement up scaffolding, so...

It's kind of rude to assume someone's lying just because you can't do what they say.   Training for tri is different from D1 football training, which is different from powerlifting, which is itself different from just being really f-ing strong from doing hard physical labor for a long time.  I mean, you can't give birth, but would you tell someone they were BS-ing if they said they'd been in labor for 24 hrs?



650 is quite a feat actually, it'd be a record setting lift if anyone below the 275 weight class did it in a USAPL event.   
2009-05-16 5:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle

I trashed my knees for several weeks last spring by standing up too much in my bike workouts. The owner of the bicycle shop I raced for said the knee is the weakest link in the leg. He said to only stand up for 5 or 10 pedal strokes to crest a hill (in a race) to "leave" the person climbing behind you, i.e. get a head start on the downhill.

2009-05-16 5:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
Getting back to the real question of balance when climbing out of the saddle. Some riders, myself included, when starting out lean too far foward when standing up. This puts too much weight over the front wheel and makes the bike less stable. The more experienced riders told me to practice standing straight up above the saddle. It helps keep your weight more evenly distributed.

I don't stand that much when climbing, but when I do my balance is a lot better and I feel a lot more comfortable when I keep my body above the saddle


2009-05-16 6:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
Was I the only one who grew up with a single speed coaster brake bike? We had climb out of the saddle! Of course I can still do it. It's just like riding a bi... wait.,it IS riding a bike.
2009-05-16 6:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
I am a decent hill climber and almost never get out of the saddle   The only exceptions would be:

#1) If I lost so much forward speed (less than 4MPH) that I might tip over and crash.
#2) If I was flying at high speed up a gentle incline and I needed four or five out of the saddle pumps to maintain speed and not shift down.
#3) If my butt hurts and I need to give it a rest.
#4) If I just need a position change in order to shake out some stiffness in my body.

It has been my personal experience that after an aggressive period of out of the saddle pedaling, I feel a sudden and dramatic drop in my energy level, which lasts for several minutes.


The June edition of Bicycling magazine contains an article titled: "Climb Like a Pro" by Selene Yeager a USA Cycling certified coach.  The second paragraph reads that "standing puts more weight on your legs, uses 10% more energy and increases your heart rate by 5%".  However, in that same paragraph it describes "there are times when standing are in order, like when your body needs a break on a climb or if you want to accelerate."

Anyway, it's a decent article that I enjoyed reading.

Mark






Edited by MKAH 2009-05-16 6:57 PM
2009-05-16 7:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
orange223 - 2009-05-16 4:22 PM
He said to only stand up for 5 or 10 pedal strokes to crest a hill (in a race) to "leave" the person climbing behind you, i.e. get a head start on the downhill.



Unless he was giving you personal advice based on your knee problems, IMO, that is not good advice. Everybody's different. Some good climbers prefer to stay in the saddle. Others don't. I've climbed out of the saddle for 20 minutes continuously before and it's never hurt my knees at all.
2009-05-16 8:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
Could be you are not pulling on the handlebars with opposite side as foot pedaling...it sort of off sets the pressure you put on your pedals as it is diagonal offset.

Also you need your forward back balance of weight figured out when climbing. My old tri coach was a competitive cyclist and worked with me on it. My weight was off but a tip he gave me is that I should feel my saddle brush my thigh every few pedal strokes. Also he helped me with timing, increase pressure on pedals, shift to harder gear or two then stand to climb.
2009-05-17 2:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Climbing out of the saddle
Riding out of the saddle, regardless of when or why you do it, or even how much is a skill that needs to be practiced just like anything else on the bike.

First of all, make sure that in your routine cycling, you are not mashing too high of a gear. strength is not really an issue in biking, at least in terms of single rep squats. The bicycle's gears are SUPPOSED to give you a mechanical advantage, so don't be afraid to use them. Ignore what "gear" you are actually using and just practice your cadence on all terrains.

Most recreational cyclsts will tend to have a cadence around 60 simply because they havn't had any coaching to tell them otherwise and because they think they should be working hard especially when going uphill. Most recreational cyclists are also just cruising around the block a few times and goin home...not riding their bikes for several hours and racing triathlons.

So...make sure your cadence is good. Everyone will find their own natural cadnece, but shoot for 80-90 rpm during your trianiing. it may take awhile to get used ot it if you arenot, but I think that when you transition to standing, it will help you.

So...when you are ready to stand, you first need to make sure that you have adequate resistance to push against, otherwise you will lurch forward and bottom out the pedal, throwing you off balance and bottoming out yoru stroke. Just before standing, shift 2 clicks harder on the rear cog very quickly then stand up. Don't mash suddenly, just stand up and keep pedaling. The incrased resistance should allow you to keep your cadence similar.

Hands should be on the hoods and weight should be centered over the bottom bracket of the bike, not too far forward or backward. When it's time to sit back down again, click those rear cogs two gears easier to get back where you started so you can sit down adn continue pedaling at your nice easy cadence without toasting your legs.

The whole question of WHEN to stand up can be debated, but regardless, it is a skill that rquires practice.


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