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Fatherlessness and Crime
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 2009-11-23 12:45 PM |
 Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC |  Subject: Fatherlessness and CrimeI see that a major popcorn thread has been pulled. I wrote this before it was pulled. If you'll indulge me, I'll just send my post to the thread out again. Maybe we can talk about the same issue from a different angle.
I was held up at gun point here in Philly roughly three years ago today. Two kids, two 9mm pistols. It was in a nice neighborhood. Time slowed down during the event, much as it does in a car or a bike accident. In the midst of that slowed down experience of time, my calculations was that these two young men were fatherless. With that information I then dealt with them as a father would, reassuringly but with boundaries so that they would not act out of more fear than they already had. I think it saved my life. So my take on crime is that much of it has to do with fatherlessness. The reasons for fatherlessness in our culture is multifaceted. I have some opinions on it. Politics is just one factor, and I believe a minor one at that. I think politics flows from the core issues causing fatherlessness. A symptom rather than the disease. What do you think? Edited by dontracy 2009-11-23 12:49 PM |
| 2009-11-23 12:51 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Master  2477   Oceanside, California | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime [hijack] I go between this and another chat room where Trolling and spirited debate have entertainment value. I always forget how easy it is to get a thread pulled. No judgments, just a wierd juxtaposition - espcially if I forget to shift my mindset between sites. [/hijack] Similar to my other post, there are a lot of correlates. - Father's death rate being related to other risk factors - poverty, drug and/or alcohol abuse, mental illness, etc. - Fathers not hanging around related to other risk factors - jail, low SES, drug/alcohol. Douche-baggery could be genetic as well as environmental. - Some men just split without warning, but some women continuously hook up with losers, WHY? Are they mentally ill, hooked on drugs, just plain stupid? |
| 2009-11-23 12:56 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Master 2447 White Oak, Texas | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Wow Pulled in under 30 min! Is a person informed when they have posted something that results in a thread being pulled? |
| 2009-11-23 12:56 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Master 2477 Oceanside, California | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Society pressure is a funny thing. Take for example suicide. One side of the coin, societies where suicide is taboo have lower rates. On the other, those taboos makes activating, funding, and accessing suicide prevention, intervention, or after-care so much more difficult. How do you promote good family values without alienating or being a D-bag to those caught in a bad situation? Especially when their are gradients of personal responsibility involved in how you got there? I suspect, but cannot back-up, that similar to my suicide analogy, societies that push traditional family values are not too swell if you are a woman or child that was widowed or abandoned at no fault of your own. Now, if you could promote the postive side while mitigating the negative... you are on to something. |
| 2009-11-23 12:58 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Champion 6786   Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Well, I believe that most property crime has an economic basis. It seems to follow that those with the least economic advantages would be the most likely to commit property crimes. That said, single mothers are not the cause of crime. There are, I believe, many factors that go into making a criminal, and whether a kid has one parent or two is only part of the picture. |
| 2009-11-23 12:59 PM in reply to: #2527337 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime CBarnes - 2009-11-23 1:56 PM Is a person informed when they have posted something that results in a thread being pulled? no |
| 2009-11-23 1:00 PM in reply to: #2527337 |
Master 2477 Oceanside, California | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime CBarnes - 2009-11-23 10:56 AM Wow Pulled in under 30 min! Is a person informed when they have posted something that results in a thread being pulled? If you ask the moderator, you will likely get a PM. I have never had that info volunteered to me. |
| 2009-11-23 1:00 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Too bad really, Lady Providence Goodshoes was going to develop into a memorable character Had her father stayed around.
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| 2009-11-23 1:00 PM in reply to: #2527337 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime CBarnes - Wow Pulled in under 30 min! Is a person informed when they have posted something that results in a thread being pulled? Not sure. I was interested in your take on the issue. I don't know if I fully agree, but it would be interesting to look at the correlation. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan's warning some forty years ago or so comes to mind. Edited by dontracy 2009-11-23 1:02 PM |
| 2009-11-23 1:04 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Master 2477 Oceanside, California | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Also, supervision is a big thing- this is superceding SES. I live in an area where many people have huge commutes to L.A. (obviously many are employed and can afford a house and the drive.) Those kids are getting into SO much trouble because of the 3-6 hours of unsupervised time after-school. Likewise, a single mom, especially if working, is not able to spend as much time supervising unless another close relative is available. A teen is probably left to fend for himself. |
| 2009-11-23 1:05 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Master 2278 State of Confusion | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Gosh, I haven't posted in COJ in a very long time, but... I also think a component to fatherlessness is divorce and a skewed bias towards the moms. I am sure I will get flamed for this, but I have seen my younger brother practically lose his kids in the courts. His ex-wife then moved across the country. My brother up-rooted his life to move closer to his kids, but a lot of dads can't do that. That is just one angle. As to why some women repeatedly date "loses"...simple really...they are looking for love in the wrong way, and often they are looking for dad's for their kids. I am sure a psychologist can expound on it more articulately than I can but that is my narrow observation, and humble opinion. A friend of mine who is all about being and promoting involved fathers started a website: dadsworld.com |
| 2009-11-23 1:07 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime dontracy - 2009-11-23 12:45 PM I see that a major popcorn thread has been pulled. I wrote this before it was pulled. If you'll indulge me, I'll just send my post to the thread out again. Maybe we can talk about the same issue from a different angle.
I was held up at gun point here in Philly roughly three years ago today. Two kids, two 9mm pistols. It was in a nice neighborhood. Time slowed down during the event, much as it does in a car or a bike accident. In the midst of that slowed down experience of time, my calculations was that these two young men were fatherless. With that information I then dealt with them as a father would, reassuringly but with boundaries so that they would not act out of more fear than they already had. I think it saved my life. So my take on crime is that much of it has to do with fatherlessness. The reasons for fatherlessness in our culture is multifaceted. I have some opinions on it. Politics is just one factor, and I believe a minor one at that. I think politics flows from the core issues causing fatherlessness. A symptom rather than the disease. What do you think? Bingo...almost every society problem we have today is because of the break down of the family. And the trends are scary. 2007 data; 39.7 percent of babies born in America are to unmarried women. Even worse, 71.6 percent of out-of-wedlock births are to African American women. This should be alarming to read considering the negative societal implications for children born and raised in single parent households. It is well documented that compared with children born to married couples, those born outside of marriage score lower on tests, have increased chances for committing a crime, have higher chances of living in poverty, experience more emotional and behavioral problems, are more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, and have higher chances of becoming pregnant as teens. |
| 2009-11-23 1:08 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime I'll throw a bit of gasoline on the fire here and call upon Stevev Levitt's Freakonomics where he posits a statistical corelation between the legalization of abortion and a drop in crime. His theory has to do with the "wantedness" of children. His research and statistical analysis is quite controversial. |
| 2009-11-23 1:15 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime That was fast! I was still checking out some data and when I went back to the thread, it was gone! I think don is on to something. Where I live is a suburb one of the top 25 most dangerous places overall, and one of the top 10 for its size. Povery is a big factor (in the last ten years, not only has per capita gone down, but there are no families earning $200K annually, when there were as recently as 10 years ago over a hundred). And many of the kids I see in both my clinics and my inpatient unit come from single parent homes - more than should from a general statistical point of view. Why are the dads absent? I think there are lots of reasons. In many cases in this area, the families immigration status is dubious, so the dad may be back in another country. Or deported. Or there are a lot of drug problems. And crime, which together leads to lots of jailed dads. Therer is also a whole vicious cycle of young moms with older men, who raise their daughters to make many of the same choices. And then of course, there is the issue of dads' roles being marginalized, which is itself a tangled thread. So the dad is seen as unnecessary, and there is no one in the community that can really step up as a role model. It is also an area that was struggling for employment even before the recession, so the dads that want to provide for their families can't always do so. I think the common issue in most of the high crime places is a combination of poverty, hopelessness (or at least a lack of imagination or role models of how to break the cycle), and a broken down family system. |
| 2009-11-23 1:20 PM in reply to: #2527377 |
Master 2477 Oceanside, California | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Blueraider_Mike - 2009-11-23 11:07 AM dontracy - 2009-11-23 12:45 PM I see that a major popcorn thread has been pulled. I wrote this before it was pulled. If you'll indulge me, I'll just send my post to the thread out again. Maybe we can talk about the same issue from a different angle.
I was held up at gun point here in Philly roughly three years ago today. Two kids, two 9mm pistols. It was in a nice neighborhood. Time slowed down during the event, much as it does in a car or a bike accident. In the midst of that slowed down experience of time, my calculations was that these two young men were fatherless. With that information I then dealt with them as a father would, reassuringly but with boundaries so that they would not act out of more fear than they already had. I think it saved my life. So my take on crime is that much of it has to do with fatherlessness. The reasons for fatherlessness in our culture is multifaceted. I have some opinions on it. Politics is just one factor, and I believe a minor one at that. I think politics flows from the core issues causing fatherlessness. A symptom rather than the disease. What do you think? Bingo...almost every society problem we have today is because of the break down of the family. And the trends are scary. 2007 data; 39.7 percent of babies born in America are to unmarried women. Even worse, 71.6 percent of out-of-wedlock births are to African American women. This should be alarming to read considering the negative societal implications for children born and raised in single parent households. It is well documented that compared with children born to married couples, those born outside of marriage score lower on tests, have increased chances for committing a crime, have higher chances of living in poverty, experience more emotional and behavioral problems, are more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol, and have higher chances of becoming pregnant as teens. Let's not dilute the conversation with bad science. That is not a scientific study, but a policy paper from a family values political group. The bios on the first 2 authors reveals that they are political policy activists, not un-biased researchers. And, their paper does not pass the high-school level science class sniff test for both bias and understanding the difference between causation and correlation. Just because the data shows that children of married families fair better does not conclusively infer that staying married would improve outcomes. It goes back to my post on the pulled thread. Are there other variables that would impact the two correlated variables of marriage and whatever outcome you are reviewing? Well, yes..... poverty - mental illness - physical abuse- drug abuse - alcoholism - and general douchebaggery could all increase the likelihood of broken families AND the likelihood that the kids have lower IQs and/or whatever outcome you review. If stupid junkies stayed together, does that mean the kids will suddenly be smarter, more responsible citizens? Or will the outcome data regress to the mean? Or could it just as likley mean that the daughters in these families are less likely to leave an abusive relationship because that is what mom modeled? |
| 2009-11-23 1:25 PM in reply to: #2527362 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime eabeam - 2009-11-23 2:04 PM Also, supervision is a big thing- this is superceding SES. I live in an area where many people have huge commutes to L.A. (obviously many are employed and can afford a house and the drive.) Those kids are getting into SO much trouble because of the 3-6 hours of unsupervised time after-school. Likewise, a single mom, especially if working, is not able to spend as much time supervising unless another close relative is available. A teen is probably left to fend for himself. "Getting into trouble" is not really the same as criminal. Of the top 25 most dangerous cities, SES seems to be a bigger issue for crime. Yes, there is the issue of lack of supervision. But I would venture that in those places where the issue is mom and dad working to support their lavish lifestyle, there are more issues of entitlement and narcissism, which leads to kids acting similarly. So are we talking about things like vandalism, retail theft, substance abuse, and "joy riding"; or are we talking about gangs, drug dealing, confrontational theft (things like the mugging dontracy describes), murder and car theft (with the destination of a chop shop)? |
| 2009-11-23 1:32 PM in reply to: #2527411 |
Master 2477 Oceanside, California | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime gearboy - 2009-11-23 11:25 AM eabeam - 2009-11-23 2:04 PM Also, supervision is a big thing- this is superceding SES. I live in an area where many people have huge commutes to L.A. (obviously many are employed and can afford a house and the drive.) Those kids are getting into SO much trouble because of the 3-6 hours of unsupervised time after-school. Likewise, a single mom, especially if working, is not able to spend as much time supervising unless another close relative is available. A teen is probably left to fend for himself. "Getting into trouble" is not really the same as criminal. Of the top 25 most dangerous cities, SES seems to be a bigger issue for crime. Yes, there is the issue of lack of supervision. But I would venture that in those places where the issue is mom and dad working to support their lavish lifestyle, there are more issues of entitlement and narcissism, which leads to kids acting similarly. So are we talking about things like vandalism, retail theft, substance abuse, and "joy riding"; or are we talking about gangs, drug dealing, confrontational theft (things like the mugging dontracy describes), murder and car theft (with the destination of a chop shop)? True. However, I suspect that this is a variable that is increasing its influence. For example, I define as "getting in trouble" to include increasing drug abuse, parties, and teen sex. That is opening the pipeline for "gateway" crimes/problems. Whether they are hard-core or "wannabes" a percentage of these kids start selling. Some are hitting meth and/or club drugs (including the date rape drugs hitting the scene.) We actually had a "wannabe" gang get upgraded to hard-core status, because they tagged a real gangs territory, which lead to the real gang getting pi$$ed off, which lead to the "wannabes" arming themselves in a "put-up or shut-up" situation. Granted, my experience probably does not generalize. At least here, we have a wierd dynamic, the kids with money are only a few miles down the road from hard-core poverty and criminals. We also have Mexican Mafia infiltration in good neighborhoods. I know one family was paid to lay low in a nice neighborhood after a "faithful service" to the organization. Edited by eabeam 2009-11-23 1:33 PM |
| 2009-11-23 1:45 PM in reply to: #2527401 |
| Expert 691 Cape Elizabeth, Maine | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime I was looking for out of wedlock birth rates...the article I referenced just happen to have data I used to make my point... Yes there are some cases where it is better for the family to split up...lets take one community - the Black Community. I really don't need a lot of research to explain to me that since 7 out of 10 kids are born out of wedlock that their screwed. This is basic common sense...in my town you have the NAACP complaining about the cops, complaining about the schools, complaining about the dispoportiante arrests rates, etc, etc. What you don't see or here is what they are doing in there communities to strenghten families. By the way, other groups (hispanic, Whites) are heading in the same general direction. Its the man in the mirror...so if you get a girl pregnant, man up and provide for them, period. Providing means, more than financial. Why is it with all the birth control teaching and resourses and methods, these rates are still growing? Once we turn these out of wedlock rates around then we can focus on your secondary issues. We have limited resourses, why don't we invest it where it will make the biggest difference. |
| 2009-11-23 1:54 PM in reply to: #2527456 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Blueraider_Mike - 2009-11-23 1:45 PM I was looking for out of wedlock birth rates...the article I referenced just happen to have data I used to make my point... Yes there are some cases where it is better for the family to split up...lets take one community - the Black Community. I really don't need a lot of research to explain to me that since 7 out of 10 kids are born out of wedlock that their screwed. This is basic common sense...in my town you have the NAACP complaining about the cops, complaining about the schools, complaining about the dispoportiante arrests rates, etc, etc. What you don't see or here is what they are doing in there communities to strenghten families. By the way, other groups (hispanic, Whites) are heading in the same general direction. Its the man in the mirror...so if you get a girl pregnant, man up and provide for them, period. Providing means, more than financial. Why is it with all the birth control teaching and resourses and methods, these rates are still growing? Once we turn these out of wedlock rates around then we can focus on your secondary issues. We have limited resourses, why don't we invest it where it will make the biggest difference. So what investment will make the biggest difference? |
| 2009-11-23 1:59 PM in reply to: #2527456 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Blueraider_Mike - 2009-11-23 2:45 PM I was looking for out of wedlock birth rates...the article I referenced just happen to have data I used to make my point... Yes there are some cases where it is better for the family to split up...lets take one community - the Black Community. I really don't need a lot of research to explain to me that since 7 out of 10 kids are born out of wedlock that their screwed. This is basic common sense...in my town you have the NAACP complaining about the cops, complaining about the schools, complaining about the dispoportiante arrests rates, etc, etc. What you don't see or here is what they are doing in there communities to strenghten families. By the way, other groups (hispanic, Whites) are heading in the same general direction. Its the man in the mirror...so if you get a girl pregnant, man up and provide for them, period. Providing means, more than financial. Why is it with all the birth control teaching and resourses and methods, these rates are still growing? Once we turn these out of wedlock rates around then we can focus on your secondary issues. We have limited resourses, why don't we invest it where it will make the biggest difference. I think it's because we have a very ambivalent approach to the whole thing, due to the very diverse range of opinions. So you have kids getting very mixed signals about what to do. "Abstinence only" and "purity vows" alongside the "lolita" images of sexualized childhoods. So kids get all this information, but are also told not to be prepared because they should not be experimenting with their sexual identities until marriage (which gets later and later in life). Or they get pressured into "purity pledges", which soon lose all meaning when everyone does it, and then they can't legitimately carry a condom. So when they yield to the temptations, they are LESS likely to use birth control. Not to mention all the kids in poverty who were themselves the product of a teen parent, who are surrounded by teen parents, and who think the way to get all the love they want is to have a baby. |
| 2009-11-23 2:04 PM in reply to: #2527470 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime ride_like_u_stole_it - 2009-11-23 2:54 PM So what investment will make the biggest difference?  |
| 2009-11-23 2:04 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime That's hawt! |
| 2009-11-23 2:21 PM in reply to: #2527315 |
Master 2006 Portland, ME | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Geez, a thread got pulled that I wasn't a part of? "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" has to be absolutely the most damaging ideologies our society has every adopted. I've struggled to come up with one that is more damaging to the fabric and future of our Country, but I can't. |
| 2009-11-23 2:23 PM in reply to: #2527512 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Jackemy - 2009-11-23 2:21 PM Geez, a thread got pulled that I wasn't a part of? "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" has to be absolutely the most damaging ideologies our society has every adopted. I've struggled to come up with one that is more damaging to the fabric and future of our Country, but I can't. Except maybe "Git back in that kitchen and fix me a sammich, ." |
| 2009-11-23 2:29 PM in reply to: #2527512 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Fatherlessness and Crime Jackemy - 2009-11-23 3:21 PM Geez, a thread got pulled that I wasn't a part of? "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" has to be absolutely the most damaging ideologies our society has every adopted. I've struggled to come up with one that is more damaging to the fabric and future of our Country, but I can't. Depends on how you read that. I don't want my daughters to believe they need to have a man in their lives to support them, or make decisions for them. If they so choose, I want them to be as capable of being self sufficient as any other person. BUT.... "A child needs a father like a fish needs a rock". OK, not a very good expression, and clearly needing work. But fish need rocks to provide protection from danger, to rest, and to be generally safe. It might survive in the water without rocks, but not thrive. And a kid needs two parents. Dads are not really optional. In fact, there are studies showing that girls raised in a home without a male enter puberty earlier (I think it was like 6-12 months). And of course, seeing how parents negotiate differences is an important overall life lesson. Not to mention having a role model of both genders. |
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