General Discussion Triathlon Talk » The latest on the Water Rover controvesy Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2010-03-31 1:47 PM
in reply to: #2760491

User image

Extreme Veteran
767
5001001002525
Rockville, MD
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
bryancd - 2010-03-31 1:59 PM Update, as per another thread on ST form Dave, H2Ofun, who spoke with Skip directly: "So, let me try again. I just talked with Charlie and Skip from USAT, and Skip has approved rule changes for WTC that he will be sending me today, that I will post when I get them. The couple we talked about. 1). 5mm thickness max has been approved. 2). water temp cutoff lowering to like 76.2 has been approved. Skip did not remember a shoe clip in rule, so will be looking into that and letting me know. " So no more Water Rover.


Not trying to derail the thread, but what is the shoe clip in rule you are referring to?


2010-03-31 1:52 PM
in reply to: #2760674

User image

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
nhunter344 - 2010-03-31 12:47 PM
Not trying to derail the thread, but what is the shoe clip in rule you are referring to?


As to whether or not you can leave yopur shoe's clipped into your pedals in T1. Some WTC races allow it while others do not.
2010-03-31 2:05 PM
in reply to: #2758634

User image

Elite
3315
20001000100100100
Miami
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
tjfry - 2010-03-30 3:48 PM I don't know much about the wetsuit, but I will tell you that two very prominant companies are dragging their feet about manufacturing and sending me the tri swim skins. They are basically in a wait and see mode right now.  After watching the mess that banning the full body suits made in the world of swimming, I am sure they are not willing (or financially able) to take a bath like that again. (Speedo, who is publically traded said they lost 3.6 million on the rule change.) So instead of selling the suits and coming up with some sort of return policy for the retailers and customers, it sounds to me like they are just not going to sell (many) suits until everything is final. I would be willing to bet though that this is the last year for the skin if you are doing an Ironman.


i work in the swim industry (well known guy), i can only tell you this.....EVERY company that was manufacturing full body suits took a bath.

that is the reason for the delay.  i rather not say more but it puts things in harsh perspective.  these performance suits are not cheap to manufacture either. 


what my question is, can someone elaborate what is the difference between fast skin vs wetsuit?
2010-03-31 2:09 PM
in reply to: #2760737

User image

Extreme Veteran
767
5001001002525
Rockville, MD
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
trix - 2010-03-31 3:05 PM
what my question is, can someone elaborate what is the difference between fast skin vs wetsuit?


A fast skin is basically a speedsuit. Usually made of or coated with materials to reduce drag. It doesnt offer much, if any bouyancy to the wearer. This is a rough explanation. Im sure someone here can go into a more technical description.

Edited by nhunter344 2010-03-31 2:10 PM
2010-03-31 2:20 PM
in reply to: #2758087

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2010-03-31 2:26 PM
in reply to: #2760790

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
triarcher - 2010-03-31 1:20 PM
Is this the route that we are going with this?  Could certain wetsuits be allowed for certain classes of triathletes?  5mm max for Pros......10mm max for amateurs?



No, it's just the opposite, they are trying to make the rules more uniform across the sport.


2010-03-31 2:31 PM
in reply to: #2760810

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2010-03-31 2:35 PM
in reply to: #2760822

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
triarcher - 2010-03-31 1:31 PM

bryancd - 2010-03-31 2:26 PM
triarcher - 2010-03-31 1:20 PM Is this the route that we are going with this?  Could certain wetsuits be allowed for certain classes of triathletes?  5mm max for Pros......10mm max for amateurs?
No, it's just the opposite, they are trying to make the rules more uniform across the sport.


But why do that when you have a pro class and AG class.  Golf did the same thing with the high MOI driver rage.  Some drivers are OK for the weekend warriors but not OK for the Pro ranks.  Pro football players use a different ball from the college ranks.  Pro baseball players use wood bats....etc. 


I can't speak to what the other sports choose to do. USAT and ITU and now WTC are trying to make a uniform set of rules in regards to equiptment, that isn't the same thing as race classifications.
2010-03-31 2:40 PM
in reply to: #2760753

Elite
3315
20001000100100100
Miami
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
nhunter344 - 2010-03-31 2:09 PM
trix - 2010-03-31 3:05 PM
what my question is, can someone elaborate what is the difference between fast skin vs wetsuit?


A fast skin is basically a speedsuit. Usually made of or coated with materials to reduce drag. It doesnt offer much, if any bouyancy to the wearer. This is a rough explanation. Im sure someone here can go into a more technical description.


ok so does one wear a speedsuit the entire race?  or is it only for the swim portion, and what is the advantage of a speedsuit vs wetsuit?

sorry trying to understand it.
2010-03-31 2:44 PM
in reply to: #2760839

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
trix - 2010-03-31 1:40 PM

nhunter344 - 2010-03-31 2:09 PM
trix - 2010-03-31 3:05 PM
what my question is, can someone elaborate what is the difference between fast skin vs wetsuit?


A fast skin is basically a speedsuit. Usually made of or coated with materials to reduce drag. It doesnt offer much, if any bouyancy to the wearer. This is a rough explanation. Im sure someone here can go into a more technical description.


ok so does one wear a speedsuit the entire race?  or is it only for the swim portion, and what is the advantage of a speedsuit vs wetsuit?

sorry trying to understand it.


No, it's a garment worn over your triathlon racing suit. It has no padding for the bike and is not designed to run in.
2010-03-31 5:12 PM
in reply to: #2760661

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.


2010-03-31 7:01 PM
in reply to: #2761236

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
PennState - 2010-03-31 4:12 PM

bryancd - 2010-03-31 2:45 PM
the bear - 2010-03-31 12:44 PM
bryancd - 2010-03-31 12:59 PM  So no more Water Rover.


In WTC races.
Correct. Question is, will Desoto be able to sell enough to make it economically viable without WTC.


Bryan, will they really be able to enforce this in races (for the AGers that is)???

I really never liked the idea of a 10mm suit, but wonder how they will enforce it.


Don't look at me, I'm just reporting news.
2010-03-31 7:02 PM
in reply to: #2761403

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2010-03-31 8:25 PM
in reply to: #2758087

Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy

I bought a Water Rover and let me just say, my very first thought when I put it on was, "No freaking way is this thing gonna stay legal."  From the legs down, I looked the Michelin Man.  If James Bond were to have a wetsuit made for him, it would be the Water Rover.   

This statement from the USAT'a Executive director stating, "About wetsuit thickness, Gilbert added that any rule change would not likely be effective until the 2012 season, to "give everybody [manufacturers, retailers and end-users] time to get into it." A sunset period is standard among governing bodies when rule changes affect equipment."

Followed by: "Still, Riccitello acknowledges that, with USAT not likely to adopt any wetsuit product verbiage at all until late in 2010 at the earliest—for a rule not likely to be adopted until 2012—WTC may be forced to wade into the waters of wetsuit rule crafting. Should USAT not preempt WTC prior to September 1 of this year, "We'll attempt," said Riccitello, "to define what a wetsuit is."

Those two paragraphs tell me something is going to be done by USAT in the next 48 months, and if not, the WTC is going to create their own rule based also on this statement: "But the main thing is, this rule puts us in line with international policy," argued Riccitello.

So bottom line is, this wetsuit is going to be made illegal.  Soon.  They don't have to get calipers and walk around and measure, all they have to do is Make it a Rule and 99.99% of everyone doing Ironman races will adhere to it.  I mean, if they outright ban the suit who is gonna have the balls to wear it to an Ironman race? 

My guess is the new rule will be the International Rule of 5mm thickness with a caveat that includes rubber manufacturer's margin of error, allowing for a small percentage over 5mm.

For me, personally, I'm returning the suit.  Spending all this time worrying, following and waiting for the newest news on this issue, I can't freaking be bothered anymore.  I'm too busy Swimming.  Really.  And to boot, since I've been busting my asss in the pool, I want to look back at my swim times for my HIM's and my first Ironman this year and know that my time was due to hard work.  There is just too much conmtroversy and negativity surrounding this suit, unfortunately, and I no longer want to be a part of it. 

 



Edited by Dream Chaser 2010-03-31 8:31 PM
2010-04-05 6:43 PM
in reply to: #2758087

Sunny San Diego
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
Helllo Emilio De Soto here. Here is what you need to know:

There is no ban yet in place. If WTC gets their way, it will be in effect for any WTC race after Sept 1. You can be sure we will do what we can to delay that date by filing appeals.

So if there is a ban after Sept 1, 2010, it will mean the Water Rover will be legal in over 3000 races and not legal in at most 20 total IM and 70.3 races in 2011.

If there is a ban, then the Fastest Wetsuit in the World Guarantee (below) comes into effect and Water Rover owners would get a screaming deal on any other T1 Wetsuit, while getting to keep the Water Rover for all the 2980 other races in the USA where it remains legal.

Fastest Wetsuit in the World Guarantee

With your purchase of the T1 Water Rover, De Soto will give you a guarantee in the event that either WTC or USAT bans a wetsuit as thick as the T1 Water Rover. This Guarantee does not negate the 15-day Satisfaction Guarantee T1 Wetsuit Policy described on our website.

Guarantee and Terms
This Guarantee includes (1) keeping your T1 Water Rover for use in races where it is not banned and (2) a determined discount off of the MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) on any new model of T1 wetsuit.

Discounts
If the ban occurs before:
• September 1, 2010: 60% off any new model of T1 wetsuit
• December 31, 2010: 50% off any new model of T1 wetsuit
• June 30, 2011: 40% off any new model of T1 Wetsuit
• December 31, 2011: 30% off any new model of T1 Wetsuit

Terms
• Must show original proof of purchase.
• Must show proof of entry in a race in which T1 Water Rover is banned.
• Must invoke Guarantee within thirty (30) days of date in which WTC or USAT institutes wetsuit thickness ban, essentially banning the T1 Water Rover.
• Applies only to T1 Water Rover sales in the United States.
• If you choose not to act within the thirty (30) days following a WTC or USAT ban, you are thereby waiving the guarantee.
• This guarantee only applies until December 31, 2011. If a ban occurs after that date, the “Fastest Wetsuit in the World Guarantee” will no longer apply.
• It is the responsibility of the owner to invoke Guarantee with De Soto.
2010-04-05 7:06 PM
in reply to: #2758087

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
Thanks much for posting, Emilo.....and great avatar pic.
You guys have been very stand-up about what really is a crappy situation.


2010-04-05 7:24 PM
in reply to: #2758087

Champion
6627
5000100050010025
Rochester Hills, Michigan
Gold member
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy

Emilio, thanks for the clarification. As always, excellent information, right on time. 

What a stand-up policy. Kudos.  

2010-04-05 9:07 PM
in reply to: #2758087

Master
2094
2000252525
Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
I was hoping the "Fastest Wetsuit in the World Guarantee " meant I could try it out and compare it to other suits. I would hate to spend that much on a suit and not be any faster.
2010-04-13 8:24 PM
in reply to: #2758087

Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy

Wow.  Now it's definitely official.  And what a coincidence, this comes on the same day I got my e-mail confirmation from trisports.com stating my return has been processed.  I do hope De Soto does not take a financial hit as I truly believe De Soto was simply trying to be innovative and ahead of the curve.  Personally, I think the Water Rover (like the disc wheel, aero helmet, aero wheels and other devices that are purely made for you to go faster) should be legal.  But regardless of what I think, Ironman has spoken:

Ironman Announces Changes In Swimwear/Wetsuit Rules For 2011 Season

by Competitor.com

 

The World Triathlon Corporation announced today that it will be changing certain swimwear and wetsuit rules for all Ironman and Ironman 70.3 events starting in September of 2010. The major changes include an adjustment in the temperature at which wetsuits can be worn and the elimination of swimskins in non-wetsuit legal swims.  See the complete press release from the World Triathlon Corporation below:

Today, World Triathlon Corporation (WTC), owners of the Ironman and Ironman 70.3 Series, announces modifications to several rules and regulations relating to the swim at U.S. races. Effective September 1, 2010, which is the start of Ironman’s 2011 competition season, new rules for apparel and wetsuits will apply at all Ironman and 70.3 events in the U.S., including both World Championships. The amendments were made to further standardize rules in the Ironman/70.3 Series and ensure a fair playing field at events around the globe.

The changes will include the following:

  • Swimwear and swim apparel must be comprised of 100 percent textile material, such as nylon or lycra, and may not include rubberized material such as polyurethane or neoprene. Swimwear may not cover the neck or extend past the shoulders or knees. Swimwear may contain a zipper. A race kit or trisuit may be worn underneath swimwear.
  • ?
  • Wetsuits cannot measure more than 5 millimeters thick.
  • Wetsuits may be worn in water temperatures up to and including 24.5 degrees Celsius/76.1 degrees Fahrenheit. Athletes who choose to wear a wetsuit in water temperatures exceeding 24.5 degrees C /76.1 degrees F will not be eligible for awards, including World Championship slots. Wetsuits will be prohibited in water temperatures greater than 28.8 degrees C/84 degrees F.

“Ironman recognizes the importance of showcasing the competitive element at all events. We believe these amendments place more emphasis on performance and function and less on technology, therefore staying true with the Ironman spirit,” says Ironman’s Head of Officials, Jimmy Riccitello.

Ironman’s rule changes are consistent with rule changes adopted by swimming and triathlon’s international governing bodies, FINA and ITU, respectively.

 http://triathlon.competitor.com/2010/04/news/ironman-announces-changes-in-swimwearwetsuit-rules-for-2011-season_8244#ixzz0l28t6g9q



Edited by Dream Chaser 2010-04-13 8:27 PM
New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » The latest on the Water Rover controvesy Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2