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 2010-04-26 7:28 PM in reply to: #2818205 |
Master  1404   Saratoga Springs, Utah |  Subject: RE: Arizonatrinnas - 2010-04-26 6:16 PM ChineseDemocracy - 2010-04-26 8:00 PM Grant amnesty with the requirement all legalized citizens learn English so both sides of the aisle get something they want. If they have a criminal record, adios. Strengthen the borders so the bad guys can't get in. Sounds like a plan, let's do it! Yeah that worked so well last time, or did you forget that we did that once before and the illegal immigration only got worse. Correct. If it were up to me I would not grant amnesty, fine businesses that hire illegals, and seal off the US-Mexico border. I would let anyone out of the US no questions asked but you would have to have the proper paperwork to enter. |
| 2010-04-26 7:41 PM in reply to: #2818205 |
Elite 4547   | Subject: RE: Arizona trinnas - 2010-04-26 8:16 PM ChineseDemocracy - 2010-04-26 8:00 PM Grant amnesty with the requirement all legalized citizens learn English so both sides of the aisle get something they want. If they have a criminal record, adios. Strengthen the borders so the bad guys can't get in. Sounds like a plan, let's do it! Yeah that worked so well last time, or did you forget that we did that once before and the illegal immigration only got worse. You're avoiding the cost issue (don't worry, my right-wing friends in real life do the same thing). Are you not concerned with the massive cost of deporting/jailing illegal immigrants? Are you not aware that if you were to round up every illegal immigrant in this country, our economy would be crippled? btw, yes Daniel, levy the fines and enforce the heck out of it! If it brings in revenue to more than cover the costs of the investigations, go for it! |
 2010-04-26 7:43 PM in reply to: #2813206 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-04-26 7:51 PM in reply to: #2818251 |
| Pro 4909 Hailey, ID | Subject: RE: Arizona Paulettejo - 2010-04-26 6:43 PM So, beyond thinking this laws is pretty much racist...(which I know some of y'all don't agree with), Arizona is so economically F*cked that I can't understand how this would help the government save money. More enforcement has to come with more officers, and well, we are being told daily that these are being cut. I can't fathom how this would help the AZ economy. And seriously don't give me crap about freeing up jobs, because illegals get crappy job that CITIZENS won't take for a fraction of the pay. Also, a study just came out that said the number of people crossing the AZ border illegally was down. So, again, why waste air debating this issue at the state level, when the AZ legislator could be trying to find money to fund education and public services that are really in need right now. I think the reform needs to come from a federal level - something that finally acknowledges that these millions of people here "illegally" should have rights - even if limited, or even if we do some sort of grace period for citizenship (maybe a citizenship drive). Actually this is not true. If you stop the businesses from hiring illegally AND make them raise the pay to LEGAL levels, it has been shown people will poor in. The problem is, the illegals can't go to the state and complain about illegally low pay, poor conditions, etc because they are afraid of being deported. Also, how is punishing people for breaking the law racist? They didn't say round up all the Mexican's and throw them out, they said get all of the illegal aliens and punish them. Just because the vast majority are Mexican does not make it racist. |
| 2010-04-26 8:02 PM in reply to: #2813206 |
| Master 1670 Harvard, Illinois | Subject: RE: Arizona I can't remember completely but after there was the amnesty in the 80s didn't Congress pass the e-verify law or something similar but with a different name? If you force every employer to prove that their employees are legal to work there will be no work for any illegal aliens. |
| 2010-04-26 8:04 PM in reply to: #2818246 |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Arizona ChineseDemocracy - 2010-04-26 8:41 PM trinnas - 2010-04-26 8:16 PM ChineseDemocracy - 2010-04-26 8:00 PM Grant amnesty with the requirement all legalized citizens learn English so both sides of the aisle get something they want. If they have a criminal record, adios. Strengthen the borders so the bad guys can't get in. Sounds like a plan, let's do it! Yeah that worked so well last time, or did you forget that we did that once before and the illegal immigration only got worse. You're avoiding the cost issue (don't worry, my right-wing friends in real life do the same thing). Are you not concerned with the massive cost of deporting/jailing illegal immigrants? Are you not aware that if you were to round up every illegal immigrant in this country, our economy would be crippled? btw, yes Daniel, levy the fines and enforce the heck out of it! If it brings in revenue to more than cover the costs of the investigations, go for it! Actually that's because I agree with some of what you said. I grew up in the southwest since before the first amnesty and the illegals were some of the hardest workers you would find. Now not so much, if you have lived in the SW you wold have seen the shift in the illegal immigration population. There are laws against hiring illegals but it is as poorly enforced as the rest of the immigration enforcement. I remeber when you could get a job with nothing more than a drivers licence. That was of course before the last immigration reform and amnesty with it's attendant rules for employers to verify your status before hiring you. That has also worked out well hasn't it. Just trying to catch them and ship them out without securing the border, denying them and their kids (including "anchor babies") social services provided by american taxpayers and making it more uncomfortable to be here illegally than it is to stay home, is not cost effective. Then again of the massive amnesty program, you are proposing is not cheap either. |
| 2010-04-26 8:10 PM in reply to: #2818263 |
| Master 1895 | Subject: RE: Arizona bradword - 2010-04-26 8:51 PM Paulettejo - 2010-04-26 6:43 PM So, beyond thinking this laws is pretty much racist...(which I know some of y'all don't agree with), Arizona is so economically F*cked that I can't understand how this would help the government save money. More enforcement has to come with more officers, and well, we are being told daily that these are being cut. I can't fathom how this would help the AZ economy. And seriously don't give me crap about freeing up jobs, because illegals get crappy job that CITIZENS won't take for a fraction of the pay. Also, a study just came out that said the number of people crossing the AZ border illegally was down. So, again, why waste air debating this issue at the state level, when the AZ legislator could be trying to find money to fund education and public services that are really in need right now. I think the reform needs to come from a federal level - something that finally acknowledges that these millions of people here "illegally" should have rights - even if limited, or even if we do some sort of grace period for citizenship (maybe a citizenship drive). Actually this is not true. If you stop the businesses from hiring illegally AND make them raise the pay to LEGAL levels, it has been shown people will poor in. The problem is, the illegals can't go to the state and complain about illegally low pay, poor conditions, etc because they are afraid of being deported. Also, how is punishing people for breaking the law racist? They didn't say round up all the Mexican's and throw them out, they said get all of the illegal aliens and punish them. Just because the vast majority are Mexican does not make it racist. I agree 100%. And the vast majority in Arizona might be Mexican, but that is not necessarily the case in alll of the other states. Imagine if they enforced a law like this in New York City... goodbye to most of the cab drivers. So yeah, I support this law. Actually, I support enforcing the laws that are already on the books but since the no one feels like doing that, then good for AZ in taking the steps they need to make their state a little safer. HOWEVER...I DO think we need to re-evaluate who we are allowing into our country. We are making is VERY easy for some (for example: bringing someone over and providing them w/ free higher education) while making it pretty darn tough for others. This is America, right? The land of opportunity. Lets give people that want an opportunity to make a better life for themselves a chance instead of someone who already has the money and education to succeed in their own country. Just my opinion...
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| 2010-04-26 8:40 PM in reply to: #2818304 |
| Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Arizona |
| 2010-04-26 8:44 PM in reply to: #2813206 |
| COURT JESTER 12230 ROCKFORD, IL | Subject: RE: Arizona Where is PUBLIC ENEMY on this issue??? They were there when Arizona chose not to observe MLK day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijeXGv9QLRc
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| 2010-04-26 8:49 PM in reply to: #2818263 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-04-26 8:59 PM in reply to: #2818368 |
| Pro 4909 Hailey, ID | Subject: RE: Arizona I would like to know where in the law it says they can do this because someone looks like an immigrant? As I read it, if someone is breaking the law in some way, they have the right to make them prove citizenship. I have not read the legislation, but are people just getting bent out of shape because some media outlet twist the law to get headlines, or is there actually something to it? (honestly I'm asking) |
| 2010-04-26 9:12 PM in reply to: #2818388 |
| Extreme Veteran 513 Albuquerque | Subject: RE: Arizona bradword - 2010-04-26 6:59 PM I would like to know where in the law it says they can do this because someone looks like an immigrant? As I read it, if someone is breaking the law in some way, they have the right to make them prove citizenship. I have not read the legislation, but are people just getting bent out of shape because some media outlet twist the law to get headlines, or is there actually something to it? (honestly I'm asking) As I understand it, and I have read the legislation, anyone can now be pulled over if a cop has 'reasonable suspicion' that they are illegally in this country. Yes, the law says that "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official... where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the united states", they can then check your status as an immigrant. But there has been considerable debate as to what exactly "any lawful contact" means. Just google that phrase, and you'll see how much has come up about it in the last few days, because it has not been defined. Just as 'reasonable suspicion' is not defined. I also read somewhere (as soon as I find the article, I will provide the link) that current AZ governor Jan Brewer, when asked what gives police "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant, simply said that the people must trust the good judgement of the police on this matter. Huh. |
| 2010-04-26 9:13 PM in reply to: #2813206 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-04-26 9:14 PM in reply to: #2818368 |
| Master 1404 Saratoga Springs, Utah | Subject: RE: Arizona Paulettejo - 2010-04-26 7:49 PM bradword - 2010-04-26 5:51 PM Paulettejo - 2010-04-26 6:43 PM So, beyond thinking this laws is pretty much racist...(which I know some of y'all don't agree with), Arizona is so economically F*cked that I can't understand how this would help the government save money. More enforcement has to come with more officers, and well, we are being told daily that these are being cut. I can't fathom how this would help the AZ economy. And seriously don't give me crap about freeing up jobs, because illegals get crappy job that CITIZENS won't take for a fraction of the pay. Also, a study just came out that said the number of people crossing the AZ border illegally was down. So, again, why waste air debating this issue at the state level, when the AZ legislator could be trying to find money to fund education and public services that are really in need right now. I think the reform needs to come from a federal level - something that finally acknowledges that these millions of people here "illegally" should have rights - even if limited, or even if we do some sort of grace period for citizenship (maybe a citizenship drive). Actually this is not true. If you stop the businesses from hiring illegally AND make them raise the pay to LEGAL levels, it has been shown people will poor in. The problem is, the illegals can't go to the state and complain about illegally low pay, poor conditions, etc because they are afraid of being deported. Also, how is punishing people for breaking the law racist? They didn't say round up all the Mexican's and throw them out, they said get all of the illegal aliens and punish them. Just because the vast majority are Mexican does not make it racist. Arizona has TRIED punishing the businesses, and apparently this isn't working out so well because here's yet another piece or immigration reform. Both the people of Arizona AND the state are economically depressed. So maybe (if you believe that some of these people sitting pretty on unemployment will take the crappy jobs - like pulling people's weeds for $20 in 90 degree weather- a job that took 2 guys 2 hours) this Might help the people, but I am specifically worried about the STATE. Arizona is unique (like CA) in that we are hurting for money. Very low on the education test scores, and yet we still want to cut money from the budget in these areas. So my question really is, how can we afford to enforce this...deportation costs money - lets not forget the fact the the cops are shifting their attention from catching a violent criminal to arresting a woman working to send home money to her family. I just think AZ has it's priorities messed up. On to the racist point. Will someone please tell me what an American looks like...? I think this comes down to this. That they could pull someone over and investigate them on the grounds for not "looking Americans" is predicated on the fact that the AZ legislator has an idea of what an American looks like. I don't know about you, but I tend to think of America as being a melting pot, so actually seperating American from "non-american" would be difficult, unless you have a limited vision of what an American is - which is what I fear the AZ legislator thinks. You really think this is going to happen? I certainly don't. Produce ID and you do not have to define what an American is supposed to look like. I do not read this law as being written so that if you look Hispanic that this is enough cause to question your citizenship. As a matter of fact it is written into the law that law enforcement can not do this. |
| 2010-04-26 9:17 PM in reply to: #2818422 |
| Master 1404 Saratoga Springs, Utah | Subject: RE: Arizona Paulettejo - 2010-04-26 8:13 PM So this part of the law: 20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF 23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO 24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE 25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, 26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY So within LAWFUL contact (which, is pretty broad) where there's suspicion (which, I think is hard to define - what sets off suspicion that someone is not a citizen...I think here's where the racial profiling stuff HAS to be a factor...so the officer stops someone on a speeding ticket...and they ask them to prove citizenship because they LOOK a certain way - i.e. Mexican, hispanic)... I don't think it's blow out of proportion. It's giving law enforcement power to check citizenship based on "looks" (which is what they term "suspicion"). 30 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, 31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY 32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF 33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR 34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION |
| 2010-04-26 9:30 PM in reply to: #2818441 |
| Extreme Veteran 3177 | Subject: RE: Arizona gerald12 - 2010-04-26 7:17 PM Paulettejo - 2010-04-26 8:13 PM So this part of the law: 20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF 23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO 24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE 25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, 26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY So within LAWFUL contact (which, is pretty broad) where there's suspicion (which, I think is hard to define - what sets off suspicion that someone is not a citizen...I think here's where the racial profiling stuff HAS to be a factor...so the officer stops someone on a speeding ticket...and they ask them to prove citizenship because they LOOK a certain way - i.e. Mexican, hispanic)... I don't think it's blow out of proportion. It's giving law enforcement power to check citizenship based on "looks" (which is what they term "suspicion"). 30 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, 31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY 32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF 33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR 34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION And don't forget the other portion posted earlier, that a valid state/national license or ID card is all that is required. You do not need to carry around your passport or birth certificate. If you are getting pulled over for speeding or having expired tabs or a taillight out etc and do not have a license then you already have something to worry about. If you are pulled over for this and have your license though wont even question it as you will provide your license anyway when they issue a ticket etc. ETA - I wish they would enact this in Washington! Edited by bel83 2010-04-26 9:31 PM |
| 2010-04-26 9:37 PM in reply to: #2818355 |
| Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Arizona tupuppy - 2010-04-26 9:44 PM Where is PUBLIC ENEMY on this issue??? They were there when Arizona chose not to observe MLK day.
Ha! As God and my wife are witnesses, I watched the By the Time I get to Arizona video twice before you even posted this!. Ahh, what the heck happened to real rap music? Chuck D and PE were awesome. Tupuppy, you bring up a great point. Arizona's politicians did drag their feet when it came to recognizing MLK Day. Big mistake and it seems like they didn't learn their lesson. If this becomes law, if you think it's bad in AZ right now, just watch. It's gonna get ugly. |
| 2010-04-27 7:29 AM in reply to: #2813206 |
| Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Arizona While I do agree we need to fine businesses from hiring illegals, before we worry about amnesty, sending them back, fines for businesses or ANYTHING else we first need to secure the border. It's like trying to repair your house from the water damage while the pipes in the basement are still leaking. As long as police are not pulling people over WITHOUT reasonable suspicion (which the law states they cannot do) I see NO issue with this law. You are breaking the law by being here illegally. Pretty cut and dry to me. Until (if) the police starting pulling people over for just having brown skin it's much ado about nothing. Edited by TriRSquared 2010-04-27 7:29 AM |
| 2010-04-27 8:21 AM in reply to: #2813206 |
| Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Arizona Scenario: College student on F1 visa is arrested for underage drinking. Student lives on campus, no drivers license because she doesn't drive. She stays in jail until someone - a friend? a dorm roommate? - can produce the documentation for her F1 visa. It's Spring Break, so it shouldn't take more than 7 days before she can be released. Scenario: A properly documented migrant worker goes out with friends on a Friday night and gets drunk. Is arrested for public drunkenness. The migrant worker does not have a drivers license, doesn't drive. She uses her 1 call to a friend, asking her friend to find and bring her documentation to the police station. Her friend is afraid the police will then start asking her questions and ask for her documentation ... her friend decides it's not the hassle. The migrant worker rots in jail until ... Until what? How long does the migrant worker stay in jail? What is the next step for the police? Arizona has the right, of course, to pass laws to try to resolve their problems as they perceive them. I suspect this law will result in an out-of-control jail budget and great increase in jail population. This budget overrun and jail cell shortage will be used as justification to beef-up law enforcement hiring, budgets, jail construction. Welcome to the police state of Arizona! Yeah, that is a slippery slope argument but I'm not so naive as to think someone in Arizona doesn't have an agenda. ETA: So, it seems some people are presumed guilty until proven innocent, an assumption not made about other people, maybe people who have blonde hair and fair skin who say "like, you know" alot, for example. I guess I'm not riding the slope after all. Police state, indeed. As someone noted, maybe they should just give properly documented migrant workers a patch to wear to identify themselves. Edited by Renee 2010-04-27 8:28 AM |
| 2010-04-27 8:36 AM in reply to: #2819054 |
| Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Arizona Renee - 2010-04-27 9:21 AM Scenario: College student on F1 visa is arrested for underage drinking. Student lives on campus, no drivers license because she doesn't drive. She stays in jail until someone - a friend? a dorm roommate? - can produce the documentation for her F1 visa. It's Spring Break, so it shouldn't take more than 7 days before she can be released. Why would she not be carrying ID? It is your responsibility to be able to prove that you are who you say you are. If you are out drinking on an F1 visa and you know about this law why would you NOT carry ID? Scenario: A properly documented migrant worker goes out with friends on a Friday night and gets drunk. Is arrested for public drunkenness. The migrant worker does not have a drivers license, doesn't drive. She uses her 1 call to a friend, asking her friend to find and bring her documentation to the police station. Her friend is afraid the police will then start asking her questions and ask for her documentation ... her friend decides it's not the hassle. The migrant worker rots in jail until ... How was the migrant worker served alcohol w/o ID. While I don't get carded much anymore I always have ID when I got to a bar in case. She should have been carded and she should have been carrying ID. While it is not discussed in the law there will certainly be methods enacted to allow people who are in the country legally to gain access to their paperwork if it is not one their person. AZ is not going to hold a legal alien indefinatley just becuase they were not carrying ID. You're taking an extreme example and trying to make it the rule. ETA: So, it seems some people are presumed guilty until proven innocent, an assumption not made about other people, maybe people who have blonde hair and fair skin who say "like, you know" alot, for example. I guess I'm not riding the slope after all. Police state, indeed. No, people are innocent until they do something that causes the police to suspect them. They are asked for ID and if they can produce it and prove they are legal they are innocent (of the illegal alien law, they still may be guilty of the infraction that caused the police to suspect them in the first place). It's no different than when I get puled over for speeding. Edited by TriRSquared 2010-04-27 8:41 AM |
| 2010-04-27 8:39 AM in reply to: #2819054 |
| Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Arizona Renee - 2010-04-27 9:21 AM Scenario: College student on F1 visa is arrested for underage drinking. Student lives on campus, no drivers license because she doesn't drive. She stays in jail until someone - a friend? a dorm roommate? - can produce the documentation for her F1 visa. It's Spring Break, so it shouldn't take more than 7 days before she can be released. Scenario: A properly documented migrant worker goes out with friends on a Friday night and gets drunk. Is arrested for public drunkenness. The migrant worker does not have a drivers license, doesn't drive. She uses her 1 call to a friend, asking her friend to find and bring her documentation to the police station. Her friend is afraid the police will then start asking her questions and ask for her documentation ... her friend decides it's not the hassle. The migrant worker rots in jail until ... Until what? How long does the migrant worker stay in jail? What is the next step for the police? Arizona has the right, of course, to pass laws to try to resolve their problems as they perceive them. I suspect this law will result in an out-of-control jail budget and great increase in jail population. This budget overrun and jail cell shortage will be used as justification to beef-up law enforcement hiring, budgets, jail construction. Welcome to the police state of Arizona! Yeah, that is a slippery slope argument but I'm not so naive as to think someone in Arizona doesn't have an agenda. ETA: So, it seems some people are presumed guilty until proven innocent, an assumption not made about other people, maybe people who have blonde hair and fair skin who say "like, you know" alot, for example. I guess I'm not riding the slope after all. Police state, indeed. As someone noted, maybe they should just give properly documented migrant workers a patch to wear to identify themselves. So let me ask you are you against road blocks for drunk driving? I have been stopped at many, many DD roadblocks even though I don't drink. I was asked for my ID and observed for any suspicion of drunk driving. Was this wrong? |
| 2010-04-27 8:39 AM in reply to: #2813206 |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Arizona When you are cornered you push back. The Fed. has pushed Arizona into a corner, so this is what you get. If we as a nation don't get a grip on our borders we will have more to worry about than if the enforcement of an Arizona law dealing with illegals is going to infringe on civil rights. |
| 2010-04-27 9:04 AM in reply to: #2813206 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by AcesFull 2010-04-27 9:04 AM |
| 2010-04-27 9:14 AM in reply to: #2819211 |
| Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Arizona AcesFull - 2010-04-27 10:04 AM
But we're a superior race culture and that could never happen here. |
| 2010-04-27 9:16 AM in reply to: #2819211 |
| Pro 4909 Hailey, ID | Subject: RE: Arizona Wow Aces, Not cool at all. You are calling asking for documentation and deporting the same as the jewish holocaust and the nazis? Not cool at all, and pretty dang offensive to all involved (especially people who have relatives of the holocaust). |
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