Can I really improve that much?

I am also curious to that as well. Over the last 4 years I have seen major improvement as my fitness improves but have been realizing that I have easy gains to make with technical ability on the bike. I am going to take a 6 week clinic to learn the intricacies of shifting and hill work...I know I have a lot to learn on attacking hills. Some of my friends gained 2-3 avg mph increases after 4 months of MS 150 training... so that just says that riding more = getting faster just through sheer mileage.

I wonder if the gains are similar to running gains. I have watched my mile time go from mid 10s to mid 7s in a year with speed work, but its my understanding that significant gains beyond this become more and more difficult to attain. Diminishing returns so to speak. I would think its the same in bike... can't wait to read the responses...

Very good points thus far!  Some people are naturally more athletic from the get go and will start faster, that being said, they may also have to work harder for improvements than someone who does not have as strong of a fitness background. 

I started tris last year, and in a year of training took my first sprint time of 1:35 to just under 1:14.  I know the next year will be more of a challenge, but in general spending more time and putting more miles in will help. 

If you are only riding 3x a week, try to get in another day especially if the bike is an area you know you can improve the most.  Take a look at Jorges 14-week cycling plan.  Its 3 days a week with a long ride (optional)  I have found significant gains in following the plan.  Depending on the trainer you have you can equate wattage to speed (like on the Kurt Kinetic) for training to get your rough power numbers.  He also offers a HR based plan.  Doing these types of workouts will help build your speed/endurance and may get you closer to where you want to be.

Yes.



No. It's going to take some changes to your training, and some cycling concentration.



Yes. I was amazed at the increases I made in my cycling speed when I started training like a bike racer.

You will hit a point of diminishing returns with your training. At that point, you need to change your training, adding either more volume, intensity, or both.

Eventually, however, you will get to a point where you are no longer able to change your training because you have hit the limits of your time or body's ability to recover and adapt.

how diligent are you about completing your logs? 

If you are, you have room to grow in a 3x/week plan. 

I'd guess that the vast majority (90+%) of BTers never come close to their potential. 

It's true that if you're not fast to begin with, you'll probably never be racing pro unless you're really untapped, but I thinking contending for AG prizes in local races is well within reach of most individuals. It may take years of serious training, but it's doable.

In local and even regional races, the AG contenders in competitive age brackets are usually putting up serious training - like 14+ hrs per week for triathlon, and on a incremental plan. If you're not doing this type of work, you're not at your potential.

I think tri also shorts a lot of people by diluting their efforts - it's hard enough to train for one sport, let alone 3, so when you look at yourself not getting faster, you might also consider the possibility of doing some seasonal sport-specific focus to break thru performance barriers. It can take considerable training to improve a little bit, but on the bright side, once you gain it, it takes much less training to maintain or revisit that level of performance.

Yes. I was amazed at the increases I made in my cycling speed when I started training like a bike racer.

Assuming your log is correct you rode 141 miles in the entire month of May.

Most of the guys putting up Olympic distance sprints in the 40kph (1 hour) range are putting in that many miles per week at a minimum.

x2.  Not only that, but assuming your logs are accurate, you are losing any fitness gains by taking 2-4 months off from any biking.  When I raced as a Junior in the 80's I remember a coach saying if you do no training for a week, you've lost 1 month's worth of training fitness; if you do no training for 2 weeks, you've basically given up that racing season.

Taking a few weeks off at the end of the season is OK, but then you've gotta get back on the trainer during the offseason to rebuild and raise your base foundation.  Consistency is key to building up the blood vessels (capillaries) and energy-producing components (mitochondria, enzymes) the slow twitch fibers need for endurance.

Once you've established a foundation, you can start working on intensity to build up your lactate tolerance (doing sets at your threshold level, hill work, etc.).   The Spinervals DVDs are pretty good with this.

Keep at it, and don't fall off the wagon (or the bike).

It's not quite that bad, the theory that I was taught in the early 90's in my kines classes was that you can take 3-7 days (Depending on the individual and prior training history) off without much impact, after that it's a 2 for 1 loss, so for every day over that limit it will take two to get it back, and after 3-4 weeks or so of doing nothing, you're basically starting almost from scratch.

John

At 3x a week there can't be any fluff IMO.  Ride hard and try to extend the duration of your workouts.  Doesn't look like you've been consistent.  Consistency is important.  Get in 90 minutes for each of those 3 workouts and if you can make one of them >120minutes.  Don't just cruise around.  Ride pretty hard.  If you can do 120 minutes for all of them...great.  Even better.  Look into cycling programs.  Think like a cyclist not a triathlete.  Be aggressive on the bike and attack.  It's a mentality I think that some people have.  I see that some people have issues with intensity on the bike and it will forever hold them back...

Lots of group rides and race simulation, where you go well above threshold for long periods of time to (a) hand onto the pack when the hammer drops, or (b) go for a solo break-away.

It's amazing how easy 22-23 mph feels when you've gotten used to cruising in a pack at 27...

nm







Edited by scoobysdad 2010-06-18 10:37 AM

I can say from experience that the time off equals starting over is true for all endurance sports. 

I have complained a lot about it lately and it is mostly because I am mad at myself.

I had a calf injury last  year. Pre-Injury I was a runner. 50miles per week, 5:38 mile, 19:23 5K. I was still improving. Ice pick stabbing me in the calf when I ran caused me to take time off. I took week, ran still there. took a week ran still there. took a month ran still there. Borrowed a bike, rode,  no pain. Did this for three months. Started back in school, slacked on training. Bought road bike, road it probably 75 - 100 miles per week, through the summer, gained 30 lbs.

Fast forward to today - still 20 pounds over race season weight of 165. Running is slow, biking a little better, swimming ok.
It is just like I started over running again. Though. I know how to get back there. I will do it. It can be discouraging though to look at the garmin going up a hill I took last year with ease at a sub 7 pace and see 10:00/mile and high zone four for heart rate. I am really kicking myself now for not being more diligent once my calf was better and taking advantage of the winter and getting my fitness back before.

I hope to never let that happen again. Injuries excluded of course. 

Not to hijack, but to extend the OP's question.

If I start training like a bike racer, won't that start eating into my swim and run training? How do I get faster across the board? Or do I focus on one, try to maintain the others, wash, rinse, repeat?

-Kirk

Great feedback, and I knew I should have mentioned that with updating my logs I'm seriously behind. 

If riding 3 days a week is not going to be enough (and I accept that it likely won't be), then typically what amount of volume are those of you putting in, that have seen real increases?  I get that to be a better cyclist, you should hang with the roadies, and I tried that last year but the scheduling of most group rides clashed with my family schedule, so eveything I now is mostly going to be done on my own, or with one or two other Triathletes.

Last winter I did Jorge's winter challenge and increased my FTP by about 10% - but that equalled out to very little real speed.  Realistically, how much do you need to increase your FTP to see significant gains in speed?

Everyone has their natural limits but I think you can get up there.
Over the past 7 years for two local Sprint races (15.6 & 15.9 mile bikes) I started out in the low 19's then topped out in the 20's even with what I thought was a lot of miles from doing longer races. I spent the past year and a half focused on running, did a Sprint in Oct last year (15.9 mile bike) and avg 20.3 mph doing just enough bike training to make sure I had enough for the run.  Trained for a Half Mary after that but bought a bike trainer in Nov to put the tri-bike on in the garage and used it for some unfocused cross training.  After the Half Mary I started the 14week Winter Cycling training plan as I wanted to do a big local sprint (June 6th) as an A-race and wanted to try and PR the bike and race. Did about 10 weeks of the training plan, 3x per week of trainer hell, all very focused on intensity with ~0:50-1:15 durations. Saw the expected increases in my power (using the Kurt Kinetics trainer Power Meter) but didn't know how this would translate on the road.  Didn't get on the road with the bike until 2 weeks before the race and was excited at the speeds I was able to sustain on rides. I ended up with a bike PR by +1.5mph (22.4mph).  I'll try and maintain this power base with some long rides again to mix things up for now and get on the trainer again later or do some outdoor interval training before the next sprint race in Oct as I'll again focus on running for the fall winter run season.

I have been riding for about 5 years now 3 seasons of Tri.
I ride about 3 times per week, and have difficulty keeping it up during the winter and therefor struggle keeping up each spring but it comes back.

For me, it is very difficult to push myself on my own compared to riding with a group.  I can go out and ride a century on my own, ride a 80 mile mt. climb and get a decent workout and I am sure I would still see some improvement.  But I can tell you that riding with a group that is faster than me is what has REALLY helped my performance.

When I first started riding I was impressed with riding at 22 mph in a pack and thought it was incredible.  Now if we aren't hitting 27-32 mph, killing each other for KOH points or continually attacking the pack the ride isn't as exciting.  I still have great difficulty hanging on the back of this group but the workout I get from pushing myself considerably makes all the difference in the world. 

I would rank your priorities like this:
1.  Ride as much as you can each week.
2.  Push your riding harder (hills, sprints, ride with a group, etc).

The harder you push yourself in training the better the results you will see.

Michael

the answer is simple more riding....the speeds you quote mean nothing to me and majority of the people.  different conditions, different terrain...

but what can be said is this...training 4-5 times a week, 1 long, 1 temp, 1 interval and 1 recovery will give you a nice plan and get you stronger on the bike.

noodling about won't get you anywhere even if you ride 200 miles a week.  get in the saddle and ride.....powertap might help.

The answer is yes. It always comes with a qualifer: if you train right. It is all about generating enough power to push you and your bike through the wind. Weight also becomes a factor when overcoming gravity. The amount of power needed goes up expotentally as the speed increases. So devloping the sustainable power (around 200 watts) to average around 18-20 mph is within reach of most riders with reasonable amount of training. The power to average higher speeds requires focused training and at a certain point factors like genetics, age as well as commitment to training come into play. The difference between the rider pulling a group and those drafting is 25 - 40% less depending on the speed. That is why no drafting is allowed in triathlons. It is also why a group of riders that share the pulling can average significantly higher speeds for the same effort then a solo rider. Aerodynamics will help a little by allowing a rider to go faster with the same amount of power. Power to weight ratio is important climbing. That is why light climbers can go up hill a lost faster then heavier sprinters/time trialist can inspite that they are able to generate more power.

Pretty much.  The vast, vast majority of athletes never reach their genetic potential. 

(That goes double for me.)

Edited by sand101 2010-06-18 1:30 PM

Okay, let's back up a second.  I thought one of the predominating thoughts on BT (not shared by everyone), is that you can log volume on the bike and run at slower speeds (especially running) and gain improvements.  I've also seen the argument above - get out there and hammer it, and then hammer it some more the next time. 

Likely it's what one of the posters wrote, whereby you mix up the intensity and lengths of the rides.  As to the powertap - got it, and have been using it for around 6 weeks at this point.  Nothing scientific or structured in my approach, just learning what things look like during and after the workouts.  With an FTP of about 220 (maybe slightly higher now), and weight of 155lbs, I've got plenty of improvement to make.

In addition to the other question about how hard you go, do you let your swim and run suffer a bit while you concentrate on the riding?