Trouble going long… help?

that is the thing... the long training runs felt relatively good.

10/28

10/21

My guess would be you are not taking in enough nutrition if you are getting dizzy (assuming it's not heat related). I can go on for ever in cool temps. Heat shuts me down pretty quickly.

The other thing is, if you can't eat before a race, then get going and start feeling dizzy and then it goes south, I have to ask--are you having anxiety making it worse? Just some thoughts. I hope it works out for you.

Dinner: 1.5 chicken breasts, a fair amount of rice, 3 slices french bread. (maybe 1000-1200 cal). Pasta seems to cause multiple AM port o stops before races, so chicken and rice do better for me. I had spaghetti the two nights before the race.

Breakfast: Powerbar , 240 c (I'm thinking I need eggs or something here in retrospect)

During: before mile 14... I spaced out taking in a half pack powergels (100 cal), couple cups gatorade (100 cal) and orange slice  and couple cups of water. After I got the chill and was walking to try to recover I took the rest of the powergels I had for the run (300c) as fast as I could eat them know I was in trouble again. No help.   I laugh as I look back on this but around mile 15 seeing no improvement and with no aid stations in sight, I picked up a 'slightly used' 20 oz bottle of gatorade. Saw it had been opened but still almost full... I said wtf, and pounded it all. Still no help. Made it an aid station and took on more gatorade and a hammer gel. No help. Got a cliff bar from a spector and slowly was able to eat some of it. No help. From there, I found yet another slightly used gatorade bottle and drank it and filled it up at the aid stations. Drank it slowly as the nausua would allow until the finished. Felt some minor calf/foot cramps the last mile.

no but this would be a good idea regardless.

Will throw this out there too from my logs... more evidence of starting too fast/anxiety as my HR was about 10 beats higher than similar training runs. (at least the fiirst 13 miles of apples to apples comparison while running). Although I'll say I didn't feel nervous. Not having swam 2.4 and biking 112, I felt very at easy 'only' having to run 26.2. Looking back I did notice the elevated HR but incorrectly figured it was racing excitement.

Marathon on 11/13

Last long training run on 10/28

1. no, I always try to wear a HR monitor but I mostly run by feel and lack the experience/knowledge to use HR and I suffered the consequences yesterday.

2. Train by feel... tend to run z4 when I should go easy in z2.

3. no. another mistake. If I run easy, I incorrectly feel like I didn't get a good workout.

4. Yes, same plan. Nothing new.

5. See logs and also posted a scan of the runners world plan in  my profile.

I certainly understand your point. Thanks for the feedback.

I see a pacing issue right off the bat.  As per the McMillan Calculator (based off your recent half marathon PR) you should be pacing at a 9:21 for a full marathon.  However, seeing as you did not even split your half marathon, and you began fading the last few miles, perhaps a 9:30 per mile pace is more of a reachable/reasonable goal.  For your marathon your first two miles are 9:14, 9:08!!  It appears to me you are sabotaging your races right in the very first few miles. 

I scanned over a bunch of your other Medium-Long and Long Runs and there is a disturbing trend where you start around 9:00 miles and right around 10 miles in you fade back to 10 minute miles.  What I would suggest is teaching your body not to do this by going out at an easier pace and methodically negative splitting each mile.  For instance, Run 3 miles at a WU Aerobic 9:45 to 10 minute pace, then 5 miles at 9:30 pace, and then push the last 3 miles at 9:00 to 9:15 pace.  Then 1 mile CD at 10:00 pace.  Try doing this at some shorter distances first. 

Plug your times into the McMillan calculator for a half marathon, and take a close look at the paces he prescribes.  Basically you are starting off close-to a tempo pace for most of your runs. 

You need to run at a pace that allows you to negative split Medium-Long run efforts.  Start by doing this at shorter distances, and slowly work your way up. 

I would highly suggest buying the book Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger.  Based off quickly scanning your heart rates for many of your runs, you are starting in Zone 3 and then ending up in a Zone 2, unintentionally.  70 to 80% of your running should be purely Aerobic.  Especially since you are focusing on Long Course Running and Long Course Triathlon. 

You need to learn to slowly bleed over the course of a distance.  For instance if you are properly trained for the distance and properly rested/tapered, the first 1/3 of the marathon distance should feel relatively easy with an RPE of 4-5.  The next 2/3 should feel around a 6-7.  And then the last 1/3 can feel around an RPE of 9-10.  Meanwhile, despite the change in RPE, your minutes per mile pace have remained pretty-consistent.  Hence a slow bleed where if you pace properly you will get to the finish line with even splits, and will have left everything out on the course.  Yes, this easier said than done.  

You mention gatorade a lot, but how is your WATER intake?  I've discovered that there is a huge difference for me in WATER intake and GATORADE intake.  I can take in A LOT of Gatorade and still not pee, or pee very little and dark.  I believe it's all the sugar absorbing the water in my gut (which leads to other race issues).  I've been finding more success in limiting my gatorade intake, and increasing my water intake.  Are you peeing regularly during an Ironman or after a marathon? 

I want to applaud you for uploading all your run mile splits. 

Some other possibilites: I always get a Blood Panel done in the off-season so if during the peak of training I feel 'off', I can get another Blood Panel and compare the results.  The blood panel is good to find out your cholesterol and prostate levels, which are just good to know in general & 10, 20 and 30 years from now will come in handy.  For instance, for men, the normal range for prostate level is somewhere between 20 and 120.  If you find out your PSA now at 37 (my age too) is 30.  And then when in your sixties the doctor does a check and it's 90; the 90 result by itself it will appear normal to the doctor unless he sees it's three times higher then it was 20 years ago!!   But also with the blood panel, for endurance specifically, your iron and ferritin store levels are critical.  Runners especially run low on iron.  I went to give blood and was told know because upon a finger test I was told I was anemic.  This is not good especially since Iron is a key metal for storing oxygen in the bloodstream.   

There are supplements out there that support endurance activity, like Extreme Endurance.  Funny thing is, it works and the reason why is it's simply doses of magnesium, selenium, calcium and potassium all important elements in rebuilding and maintaining muscle.  A healthy diet is great, but I think what we do as endurance athletes is not healthy; let's face it.  Healthy is running two or three miles a few times a week.  We are far beyond that.  We are pushing our bodies to the ultra extreme and by doing this we are using a lot of fuel, and using up key revitalizing elements in our body that need to be replaced if we are to be succesfull at continuing at these distances for a prolonged period of time.  First Endurance also has the Multi V vitamin specifically formulated for endurance athletes.  And the iron in this vitamin is chelate which is more easily digested, cause Iron can be dangerous and build up in the body quickly -- which is also another reason to get blood panels. 

Lastly, on Long Runs and Bikes, I find caffeinated gels help me.  My body reacts very well to caffeine.  Any time I'm deep into a Ride or Run, I find 50mg of caffeine from a 2X caffeine powerbar gel helps me to maintain my pace.  Could be placebo but it definitely works for me.  I only use them for long-ish sessions. 

I had a VO2 Max test done back in 2009. Can't seem to find all the info and test results but have attached what I have right now... but I had the same thought about my HR being high on runs. Figured it was just me running too hard.

Scott,

I plugged your max HR into the attached table. The HR zones are configured according to Friel’s HR zones. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 Sue

probably will need to see this image in my profile till I can make it bigger.

Thanks Dream. Also great info here... which I've thought about too.

I have a bad habit of wanting to bank time. Seeing now that doesn't work.

Water intake is pretty good I think. No issues using peeing after races. I went at the half way point of yesterdays race. The went out fast wanting to make up the time... that didn't help either. Went again a few times after with no problems.

Coincidenially, I had a blood test done last week just because I wanted it for reference. LDL came back a little evaluated in the 'near optimal range" but total and HDL were ok. There is room for improvement in my diet to improve LDL. Nothing else was flagged but I am still studying it. Iron was 122 ug/dL.  Blood pressure was a bit high on a machine today at 136/85. Pulse rate at 44. But I know the machines can vary.

You need to ignore overall time and focus on running steady end-to-end.  Force yourself to drag out a slow pace on the first few miles.  Mentally you should be giving yourself "permission" to pick up the pace only in the last 6 miles.  If you have enough in the tank to do that, then you held back enough.

I agree with the first half of DreamChaser's post right up until he got to all the nutrition overkill.  This is not a nutrition problem.  It's a pacing issue.  It became glaringly obvious when I saw the mile splits near 9m/mi for the first 4.

All my runs used to be Tempo Runs around 5 and 6 miles in distance.  I would run them all just under race pace and finish exhausted, thinking I got in a good workout.  And when I would run long, I would start slightly slower and always fade the last 1/3rd of the run. 

Then I read Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger and finally grasped the concept of running my hard runs hard, my aerobic runs easy, and my recovery runs really easy.  As opposed to running everything tempo and just holding on at the end, finishing exhausted.  You shouldn't finish your training runs exhausted!  You should finish them feeling like you still have some gas left in the tank.  I know this defies what we believe is common sense, and that if we always finish a run gassed we got a better workout.  But that is wrong. 

For you: 80% of your running should be even splits, aerobic EZ effort.  20% should be speed. 

Think of it this way.  Right now your Aerobic Engine is a 4 cylinder.  Every run you are maxing out that little 4 cylinder for all it's worth and it's not getting you too far.  You need to slow down, learn to run even splits over longer distances and build your AEROBIC ENGINE.  Building this Aerobic Engine takes several consistent months of training.  And eventually your Aerobic Engine will grow to a 6 and eventually an 8 cylinder engine!!  Then when you do tempo and speedwork, you'll be able to hold that speed for a longer distance cause you'll have a larger engine!  Understand?   

Read what Mark Allen says: 

Here is a quote from the article:http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=2

Now for the tougher part…the endurance. This is where heart rate training becomes king. Endurance is THE most important piece of a triathlete’s fitness. Why is it tough to develop? Simply put, it is challenging because it usually means an athlete will have to slow things down from their normal group training pace to effectively develop their aerobic engine and being guided by what is going on with your heart rate rather than your will to the champion of the daily training sessions with your training partners! It means swimming, cycling and running with the ego checked at the door. But for those patient enough to do just that, once the aerobic engine is built the speedwork will have a profound positive effect their fitness and allow for a longer-lasting improvement in performance than for those who blast away from the first day of training each year.

Again, kudos for asking for help.  Over the last six years of running I've learned that everything I thought to be true, is false.  And that I know pretty-much nothing.  Everything I have learned from other succesful athletes and coaches that I have applied to my training has paid off in spades.   

I did go overboard on the nutrition part.   However, I do think the nutrition becomes important when we enter Peak Phase of Ironman training. 

Pacing issue

What I'd suggest doing is what I worked on in 2009. I would do my long runs with goal pace for each mile and overall goal to make each mile faster than last one which meant starting out what felt ridiculously slow. I found it to be a fun game to play and made my long runs more mentally engaging. I got so I would be within 3-5 seconds of goal pace set by my coach each mile.

Come IM day it helped...I had bonked or come close to bonking on the bike as I had been throwing up for 4 hours. Off the bike I was determined to get calories and fluid in. My fastest miles were last 3 of IM run and first and second half run splits were within 7 minutes.  I am not fast but all those long runs forcing myself to slow down first miles really paid off.

Seems like you need to concentrate on building a sold base during this upcoming off season to work on getting your heart rate down before you work on build and speed.

I agree with everyone that pacing was too fast considering your long runs were 10:30 paced and you went out around 9:45--but, that's not that fast especially if your longer runs leading up were in hotter weather than your race as temps continue to cool.

I really think you had a perfect storm of some nutrition issues, rolling to fast, and anxiety.  

Get away from the RPE if you have an HRM and use that HRM.