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2012-01-02 8:13 PM

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Subject: iron man run

 

I will be doing my first Iron Man this
year. So the question is how fast should I be able to run an open mary if I
want to run 8 min miles in the IM. I know that it depends how fast I ride and
if I kill myself on the bike, so just assume that the bike was great and did
not over do it. My thought is I should be able to run sub 3 hours or just
better than 7 min miles on an open mary no problem. What do you think? My IM is
about 26 week away do you think that I can make it by then from looking at my
logs?Laughing



2012-01-02 9:32 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run

Qualifying statement: I have not done a full IM or even a full marathon.

Looking at your past race performance your best pace is down around 7:30/mile in Olympic distance, and quite a bit slower when the distance increases.

Looking at 2011 mileage you got in around 15 miles per week.  December 2011 was about 20 miles per week.  That's a lot less base than you want and need for this kind of distance.

I know people who are very fast runners that have completed marathons and full IM's and I have noticed that a lot of people don't run the IM marathon nearly as fast as an open marathon.  Something about 2.4 miles of swimming and 112 miles on the bike beforehand!Surprised

I'm going to guess that to feel comfy with an 8 min/mile pace target in your IM you would want to complete a standalone marathon close to 7:15.  How did you feel on your HIM run at 9:30/mile?  Was that an outlier?

2012-01-02 9:53 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run

You are looking at it backwards. You can't really pick a pace for IM run and then figure out what your Mary time should be to get it.

Train consistently, test yourself by doing bike and run testing, practice race rehearsals and then you should know what you can run in an IM if you properly pace swim and bike and take in right nutrition race day.

If you want to see how your VDot can determine a good IM run you can look at this table. Table reflects best case scenario if your race execution is spot on.

2012-01-02 10:04 PM
in reply to: #3967296

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Subject: RE: iron man run
wbattaile - 2012-01-02 7:32 PM

Qualifying statement: I have not done a full IM or even a full marathon.

Looking at your past race performance your best pace is down around 7:30/mile in Olympic distance, and quite a bit slower when the distance increases.

Looking at 2011 mileage you got in around 15 miles per week.  December 2011 was about 20 miles per week.  That's a lot less base than you want and need for this kind of distance.

I know people who are very fast runners that have completed marathons and full IM's and I have noticed that a lot of people don't run the IM marathon nearly as fast as an open marathon.  Something about 2.4 miles of swimming and 112 miles on the bike beforehand!Surprised

I'm going to guess that to feel comfy with an 8 min/mile pace target in your IM you would want to complete a standalone marathon close to 7:15.  How did you feel on your HIM run at 9:30/mile?  Was that an outlier?

last year I focused all my attention on OLY dist races That when I got to my HIM it all fell apart at the 7 mile mark. I should have run more miles. I also could not run for about 3 month at the beginning of the year. I had broke my leg and I think that I am now back to before my broken leg.

2012-01-02 10:12 PM
in reply to: #3967326

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Subject: RE: iron man run
KathyG - 2012-01-02 7:53 PM

You are looking at it backwards. You can't really pick a pace for IM run and then figure out what your Mary time should be to get it.

 

Train consistently, test yourself by doing bike and run testing, practice race rehearsals and then you should know what you can run in an IM if you properly pace swim and bike and take in right nutrition race day.

If you want to see how your VDot can determine a good IM run you can look at this table. Table reflects best case scenario if your race execution is spot on.

I dont under stand what the chart is saying or how I should read it.

just have a time that I want to finish in and trying to see if I am will be able to run that fast or not. just using the mary as a yard stick.



Edited by mark.evans 2012-01-02 10:13 PM
2012-01-02 10:13 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run

I think your HIM race is a much better gauge of where your pace will be for CdA.  Yes your fitness will improve over the offseason, but the distance is also doubling.

You're around a 9min/mi pace in your logs on runs over 2 hours, as well as the HIM.  Yeah I realize those training runs are probably intentionally long / slow, but that's what it'll be in an IM   Depending on the temperature at CdA, that's probably a good goal pace - a 4hr IM mary, which not a lot of people accomplish.  Of course it's on you to race smart on the bike, and keep building bike and run volume over the next several months.



2012-01-02 10:22 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run
An IM marathon time typically will be 30-40 min slower than your open marathon time for a 4 hr marathoner. Obviously that is not true for everyone out there but remember you are starting your marathon after 2.4 miles of swimming and 112 miles of riding and some 7-10 hours of activity; it is going to slow you down. For me I can run a 10K about 2 min slower than my open time, and a HM about 10 min slower and my marathon is about 45 min slower.

Of course results may vary, but look at the splits a 3:30 IM run split is hauling.
2012-01-02 10:23 PM
in reply to: #3967350

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Subject: RE: iron man run
mark.evans - 2012-01-02 8:12 PM
KathyG - 2012-01-02 7:53 PM

You are looking at it backwards. You can't really pick a pace for IM run and then figure out what your Mary time should be to get it.

 

Train consistently, test yourself by doing bike and run testing, practice race rehearsals and then you should know what you can run in an IM if you properly pace swim and bike and take in right nutrition race day.

If you want to see how your VDot can determine a good IM run you can look at this table. Table reflects best case scenario if your race execution is spot on.

I dont under stand what the chart is saying or how I should read it.

just have a time that I want to finish in and trying to see if I am will be able to run that fast or not. just using the mary as a yard stick.

Your last 11mi run was 1:26 (with a stop) - so I put in a rough guess of 1:15 for 10 miles in the McMillan calculator.  It estimates a 1:39 half-marathon, and 3:30 marathon.  I think you need to build more volume before the marathon estimate works for you, though.

If you look up that 1:39 half mary on the chart Kathy linked, your vdot is a 45, showing a 4:24 / 4:07 for IM marathon pace range.

2012-01-02 11:57 PM
in reply to: #3967363

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Subject: RE: iron man run
spudone - 2012-01-02 8:23 PM
mark.evans - 2012-01-02 8:12 PM
KathyG - 2012-01-02 7:53 PM

You are looking at it backwards. You can't really pick a pace for IM run and then figure out what your Mary time should be to get it.

 

Train consistently, test yourself by doing bike and run testing, practice race rehearsals and then you should know what you can run in an IM if you properly pace swim and bike and take in right nutrition race day.

If you want to see how your VDot can determine a good IM run you can look at this table. Table reflects best case scenario if your race execution is spot on.

I dont under stand what the chart is saying or how I should read it.

just have a time that I want to finish in and trying to see if I am will be able to run that fast or not. just using the mary as a yard stick.

Your last 11mi run was 1:26 (with a stop) - so I put in a rough guess of 1:15 for 10 miles in the McMillan calculator.  It estimates a 1:39 half-marathon, and 3:30 marathon.  I think you need to build more volume before the marathon estimate works for you, though.

If you look up that 1:39 half mary on the chart Kathy linked, your vdot is a 45, showing a 4:24 / 4:07 for IM marathon pace range.

thanks I think that I got it. it looks like I would have to be a 56 vdot running 6:14 min a mile. I don't think so. what does the FT stand for?

2012-01-03 11:22 AM
in reply to: #3967415

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Subject: RE: iron man run
mark.evans - 2012-01-02 9:57 PM
spudone - 2012-01-02 8:23 PM
mark.evans - 2012-01-02 8:12 PM
KathyG - 2012-01-02 7:53 PM

You are looking at it backwards. You can't really pick a pace for IM run and then figure out what your Mary time should be to get it.

 

Train consistently, test yourself by doing bike and run testing, practice race rehearsals and then you should know what you can run in an IM if you properly pace swim and bike and take in right nutrition race day.

If you want to see how your VDot can determine a good IM run you can look at this table. Table reflects best case scenario if your race execution is spot on.

I dont under stand what the chart is saying or how I should read it.

just have a time that I want to finish in and trying to see if I am will be able to run that fast or not. just using the mary as a yard stick.

Your last 11mi run was 1:26 (with a stop) - so I put in a rough guess of 1:15 for 10 miles in the McMillan calculator.  It estimates a 1:39 half-marathon, and 3:30 marathon.  I think you need to build more volume before the marathon estimate works for you, though.

If you look up that 1:39 half mary on the chart Kathy linked, your vdot is a 45, showing a 4:24 / 4:07 for IM marathon pace range.

thanks I think that I got it. it looks like I would have to be a 56 vdot running 6:14 min a mile. I don't think so. what does the FT stand for?

Functional threshold.  In this case it's the pace you can run for about 45 min to 1 hour.

2012-01-03 11:54 AM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run

Mark,

You're 26 weeks away to your first IM.  With all due respect, your projected run time in the race (at this point) is meaningless; although I understand the temptation to set your pace goals. 

For the run, this will depend far less on your open marathon time than it does on how well you will pace the bike.  Also, it being your first will have a huge impact as to your pacing.  There is just no way you can know and Vdot and rules of thumb will not help you (at this point).

As you spend the next 26 weeks in training, you will get an idea of how well you can ride long and then run off of the bike.

 



2012-01-03 1:04 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run
mark.evans - 2012-01-02 9:13 PM

 

I will be doing my first Iron Man this
year. So the question is how fast should I be able to run an open mary if I
want to run 8 min miles in the IM. I know that it depends how fast I ride and
if I kill myself on the bike, so just assume that the bike was great and did
not over do it. My thought is I should be able to run sub 3 hours or just
better than 7 min miles on an open mary no problem. What do you think? My IM is
about 26 week away do you think that I can make it by then from looking at my
logs?Laughing

With an open marathon time of 3:30, I think that a 4 hour ironman marathon is more realistic than a 3 hour one.

2012-01-03 1:23 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run
I ran a 3:04 marathon (7:01 miles) last spring and ran a 3:32 IM marathon (8:05? miles) in October. I thought I could run faster than that in the IM and am working toward that goal. One person's experience....

Funny story, I had some energy left at the end of the IM run so I really turned it on and passed a bunch of people. It felt like I was flying. I would have guessed I was running 6:40s for the last 2 miles-at least that is what it felt like. Upon review of my Garmin data I was running 7:48s which would usually be my fairly relaxed "cruise" type pace. IM changes everything-certainly my perception of how fast I was running.
2012-01-03 1:28 PM
in reply to: #3968440

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Subject: RE: iron man run

IMHO, you should target your "forever" pace on the run.  Endurance Nation describes this as the pace that you could run forever if people kept feeding you. 

For me, that is 10 min/mile or 30 seconds per mile slower than my average run pace.  For you (8:44 average in 2011 and 8:22 average in 2010), I would say you are in the 8:50-9:45 min/mile pace.  That will bring you an easy 4 hour marathon, which is usually top 10% (or less) of the field.   If you get to mile 20 and are feeling froggy, you can always pick up the pace and sprint it in faster than this.

The last thing you want to do, though, is to injure yourself in training trying to attain a goal marathon pace while building your s/b/r fitness to be able to do the distance. 

2012-01-03 2:31 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run

mark.evans - 2012-01-02 8:13 PM So the question is how fast should I be able to run an open mary if I want to run 8 min miles in the IM.

I did my first open-26.2 in Febuary '11 @ 3:10, my first 140.6 in October '11 with a very easy run of ~3:37, and my second open-26.2 in Decemeber '11 at 2:59.  My 3:37 was a "do no damage" effort, and I have no doubt I could have gotten close to a 3:30 if we hadn't had 90" at the train crossing and the 140.6 been the last race of my season.

I seem to remember a 54.5 VDOT predicting around a low 3:3x iM run split with an well executed bike.

My advice is to not chase the marathon as a build for iM.

Hope that helps.

2012-01-03 2:55 PM
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Subject: RE: iron man run

In my experience you could get near a 30 minute difference on an IM run as opposed to an open Marathon run.  Training brick and long runs on tired legs are the key!

Dills



2012-01-03 2:59 PM
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Subject: RE: iron man run
My IM marathon: 5:16
Marathon PR: 3:50
(IM finish time: 14:29)

... ha!

It REALLY depends on your bike fitness. From what I saw, very few people ran the entire marathon.

Your race is far away -- follow your training plan, get in the miles, and don't worry about the mary time right now.

Edited by trishie 2012-01-03 3:02 PM
2012-01-03 6:50 PM
in reply to: #3967158

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Subject: RE: iron man run

This is just from my personal experience.  After reading a lot of blogs about IM races, I was expecting to have about a 4:30 IM marathon in my first IM this past fall.  My open marathon PR is 3:48.  I went a 4:02 marathon at IMAZ, 11:44 finish.  I have completed 2 HIMs, and they were 1:59 and 2:00 half marathons.  So my point is, if you don't have speed, like me, but can maintain a decent pace over a long distance, you might be able to get your open IM marys closer together than 30-40 minutes. 

I think you just have to train for the distance and get to know your body and how it responds to the distances as they increase.  You might find that you fade fast no matter what your pace, or you might find that if you regulate yourself, you can go forever.  Again, I have no expertise whatsoever, I do not even train with a HRM or power, this is just my experience, for whatever it's worth.

Jennifer

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