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2012-02-24 11:29 PM

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Master
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Subject: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

If you've a swim background I need your help. Please take gander and give me a few hints:

http://youtu.be/O-MI4lirQMo

A bit about me: I did my first tri 6 years ago. I couldn't swim and splashed / back floated the entire 400m. Then I learned how to swim using Total Immersion books and videos. Over the next year I improved from 3min/100m to 2min/100m but then I really haven't made much progress since. I can swim the distance (full IM) but I'm slow.  

THANKS!

p.s. feedback re: my gut, age or imminent baldness is unnecessary as my wife provides me with daily reminders.



Edited by mgalanter 2012-02-24 11:36 PM


2012-02-24 11:37 PM
in reply to: #4065644

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

You need to keep your elbows up more during the first part of the catch. You're losing about half of your propulsion because you're pulling your elbow straight back without grabbing any water. Watch these guys's forearms during the catch, then compare to yours:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvM3JYC--hM

2012-02-24 11:43 PM
in reply to: #4065644

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Master
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Saratoga Springs, Utah
Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
Your arms should not be crossing over your midline during your pull.
2012-02-24 11:55 PM
in reply to: #4065644

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New user
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Morgantown, WV
Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
Pull through needs to be closer to the body, also need to finish the stroke a little better.
2012-02-25 12:01 AM
in reply to: #4065644

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Member
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

Don't pull so far inside, while taking a stroke your left hand should not cross the right side of your body.  Ketchup drill can help this. Paddles will also help smooth out the pull. Start with the yellow paddles. Use only the finger loop, they will slip off easier allowing you to find the right sweeping motion of your stroke. Buy a pull buoy too.

http://djsports.com/Product/71500/\

In a year or so depending on how much you swim and progress as well as how healthy your shoulders are I would move up to these paddles.(the light green or yellow.) I use the wrist strap with these.

http://djsports.com/Product/DJSTROKE/

Kick more. Start kicking with a board, without a board(12/9/7 kick, 1 stroke free)

Your elbow is high and your hand recovery is straight that is good.

Do some flick drill, as your hand is about to finish pulling and starting recovery flick your wrist the last inch or so out of the water. This helps reinforce getting everything you can out of your pull and keeping your hand flatter those last few inches.

Tuck your head a little more and push off deeper while streamlining off the wall, a couple dolphin kicks never hurts either.

Breath every 3.

2012-02-25 12:47 AM
in reply to: #4065663

Master
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
Sharkinwater - 2012-02-25 12:01 AM

Don't pull so far inside, while taking a stroke your left hand should not cross the right side of your body.  Ketchup drill can help this. Paddles will also help smooth out the pull. Start with the yellow paddles. Use only the finger loop, they will slip off easier allowing you to find the right sweeping motion of your stroke. Buy a pull buoy too.

Oh please do explain this one! (sorry, couldn't resist!)



2012-02-25 7:52 AM
in reply to: #4065644

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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

Ketchup drill: hand does not pull until the other hand catches up with the other. So streamline off the wall, pull with whichever hand is on bottom say its the left hand, do not start right hand pull until the left hand has completed pull and recovery which is when it will be on top of the right hand.

We use sticks so the little ones cant cheat.

2012-02-25 8:36 AM
in reply to: #4065644

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Master
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Westlake Village , Ca.
Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
How often are you swimming? What do your normal swim workouts look like?
2012-02-25 8:37 AM
in reply to: #4065813

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
Sharkinwater - 2012-02-25 9:52 AM

Ketchup drill: hand does not pull until the other hand catches up with the other. So streamline off the wall, pull with whichever hand is on bottom say its the left hand, do not start right hand pull until the left hand has completed pull and recovery which is when it will be on top of the right hand.

We use sticks so the little ones cant cheat.

You mean catch-up drill? 

2012-02-25 8:55 AM
in reply to: #4065644

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

1. Get a new wife.

2. Throw away the camera and do 20K/week in intervals with people pushing you.

You're welcome

Oh wait, you said CONSTRUCTIVE criticism in the video ...

Okay, well, the last part of #2 still holds.

Caveat: the meaner I am, the more it means I care. (Yeah, yeah, the ex-boyfriends didn't buy that one, either). But in your case, no feelings on the line, so it's actually true.

It's not bad. All the necessary elements are there and the timing (which is pretty much everything) is there. I believe a few minor tweaks and a lot of major yardage will go immensely far for you. Seriously, people who need to work on timing have a much longer road ahead of them. The fact that your arms are where they are supposed to be, pretty much when they are supposed to be there, and your kick is where it's supposed to be when, relative to your arms--awesome.

On to the stuff that needs work.

- 90% of your pull is wasted. You're pushing the water in every direction EXCEPT where it really needs to go, which is back (in order for you to go forward). Or think of pulling your body forward, whichever, but neither is happening.

- Immediately after the catch, you are pushing the water down toward the bottom of the pool. No good, since this causes your upper body to pop up and your legs to go down. INSTEAD: drop your fingers toward the bottom of the pool, and pretend you are trying to get a HUGE square package under your elbow and arm that you're then trying to push yourself forward over. (This forces you to get your elbow up, otherwise it can't get over that square edge of the package in order for you to pull the front end back with your forearm--or you forward over the front of the package--whichever analogy works for you).

- In the middle of your pull, you literally come to a dead stop, which is caused by you planing your hand to create an S-pull. What is happening is that your hand, instead of pulling water back, is in fact pushing water to the side. Your stroke and body come to nearly a complete stop in the water. Watch the video in slo-mo, frame by frame, and you will see this.

For you: focus on doing a SLIGHTLY wavy line back in the water, created by your forearm, pushing water with your forearm back toward your feet--mentally, do NOT turn your palm in the water at all. Think that your hand and forearm are still in line, pulling back against the front of that straight package--your forearm is just shifting a bit side to side across the front. (If you planed your hand, like you are currently doing in your stroke, then your hand wouldn't be lying flat on the front of the package any more).

Because your kick is decent and in good time with your arms, I think these corrections plus speed will naturally allow your legs to come up in line with your body instead of simply being kind of dragged behind and drooping a bit. BTW--your body rotation is good and is being initiated from the hips, which is also good, and you're not dipping your shoulders way down in the water, which is also good.

I agree that your hands are too close to the center line, though. Mentally, think of entering your hands in the water at 10 and 2 o'clock (a big exaggeration but chances are if you think of them that far apart, they'll come in just right as opposed to both and 12 o'clock where they are now).

Your recovery's good, your breathing's okay, I'm not seeing any big discrepancies between L and R sides.

Breathe when you need air.

Don't worry about the final part of the pull. By logical and actual evidence, it contributes almost nothing to the stroke.

P.S. You don't need toys. You need YARDAGE.

 



Edited by TriAya 2012-02-25 9:02 AM
2012-02-25 9:13 AM
in reply to: #4065879

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Master
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

TriAya - 2012-02-25 9:55 AM  Caveat: the meaner I am, the more it means I care. (Yeah, yeah, the ex-boyfriends didn't buy that one, either). But in your case, no feelings on the line, so it's actually true.
 

You may be assuming too much. Like so many BT guys, I too have a Melon infatuation.Wink

 P.S. You don't need toys. You need YARDAGE.  

Women. They tell you length doesn't matter but when you get down to business it turns out they do. Though most women don't usually ask for entire yards. Surprised

-------

OK, enough Saturday night silliness from me. Everyone - thank you for the great feedback. I'm heading downstairs to the pool right now to try some of it out. 



2012-02-25 9:16 AM
in reply to: #4065864

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Master
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

Fastyellow - 2012-02-25 9:36 AM How often are you swimming? What do your normal swim workouts look like?

Since IMC last August... I took several baths and this week I swam 1000m as part of taping this footage.   Oh, wait, I think I see what you're getting at...  I may not be swimming enough?

2012-02-25 10:22 AM
in reply to: #4065644

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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

Catch-up ketchup same thing different jargon.

Tools not toys.

You will find a kickboard not a toy but a torture device.  If you can kick fast you can swim fast.

Paddles are candy, they really help emphasize a long smooth stroke, make your arms stronger, I really like doing 200's with long breathing patterns while wearing paddles..400's are good too.

Popov drill(6 kick 3 pull freestyle) will really help with the timing of kicking and pulling. Make sure you are still kicking while taking your 3 pulls.

2012-02-25 2:14 PM
in reply to: #4065865


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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
axteraa - 2012-02-25 9:37 AM
Sharkinwater - 2012-02-25 9:52 AM

Ketchup drill: hand does not pull until the other hand catches up with the other. So streamline off the wall, pull with whichever hand is on bottom say its the left hand, do not start right hand pull until the left hand has completed pull and recovery which is when it will be on top of the right hand.

We use sticks so the little ones cant cheat.

You mean catch-up drill? 

 

lol!!!!!  never got the condiment connection.... now lmao!!!! 

2012-02-25 9:45 PM
in reply to: #4065644

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
2 main things stand out, although there are always going to be little things to work on.

Thing number one is balance...it's pretty good, but from underwater your hips are still a little low, and fro above the water you can see primarily your shoulders upper back and head out. This is creating some drag. Until you fix drag, even fixing propulsion is still going to leave you with some inefficiencyes.

The good news is that one fo the things you can do to fix the balance will also help your propulsion.

If you look at the underwater shots, as you enter your arm and spear it forward, you are "kiting" up towards the surface...that is the lead hand is creating a plane that drives water down and your upper body up (because the shoulder joint is held stiffly). It's not dramatic and it's actually less than I recalled after watchign the video once prior to posting. If you angle a little bit steeper than where you are currently it will do 2 things.First it will bring your upper body (head / shoulders) down lower and pop the hips up. this alone will make you faster.

The second thing it will do is put your palm & forearm in a better position to start catching water. as it is you are not getting the palm facing back until late in the stroke...so you're not losing any propulsion a nd your also getting a balance advantage by spearing a little deeper.

The other thing for balance is to relax your neck & head...just let it go, pretend you are boring a hole through the water with the top of your head as you swim forward. This will also bring the front end down a little and the hips up. See the pic.

As far as improving the underwater part overall, try this although it sounds elementary. Hold one hand with fingers relaxed and gently draw it back and forth through the water. Imagine your hand is a cup and you are filling it with water as you slowly draw it through. Tilt the hand one way and then the other to see what it feels like when water "spills" out of your cup towards the thumb side, or towards the pinky side, and the sensation you get when the water fills the cup evenly without spilling out the sides. (NOte that I"m describing it as a cup, but the fingers are not tightly together...imagine you are holding a birds nest in your palm for example...a gentle grip on something without crushing it. Like you'd cradle a newborn's head. Feel the water in your palm the same way you'd feel the weight of a newborn baby's head in your palm

Now try to create that sensation while stroking. This means you have to slow down the stroke, relax the hand, tip the fingers toward the bottom of hte pool with the palm facing backwards. Now draw that same cup directly back towards your feet without waving to the crowd under water.

There are some other things two, but those two things..improving balance and slowing down the stroke so you stop slipping water and start catchign it are going to add another 10-20 seconds/ 100 to your speed. Once you get those down you can continue to refine.

Edited by AdventureBear 2012-02-25 10:04 PM




(Screen Shot 2012-02-25 at 11.00.23 PM.jpg)



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2012-02-26 7:56 AM
in reply to: #4065644

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Lisle, IL
Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

I skimmed the other results but not closely.  My $0.02: The posts talking about lack of pull and low hips are dead on. 

For the pull, you have to figure out how to catch and pull water backwards.  Your forearms need to rotate to do this effectively.  Hold your arms out in front of you.  Rotate your hands out and try to point them up at the ceiling.  If you do this when you swim you may feel an immediate increase in resistance.

For the hips, arch your back and kick from the hips.  Grab a board to work on this, since you can isolate this issue without thinking about catch.  Good luck.



2012-02-26 11:07 AM
in reply to: #4065644

Master
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

Am curious as to how much faster you swim experts think OP can go if he gets the hip up and gets the pull smoothened out and in a better plane. 

2012-02-26 11:20 AM
in reply to: #4066929

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
agarose2000 - 2012-02-27 1:07 AM

Am curious as to how much faster you swim experts think OP can go if he gets the hip up and gets the pull smoothened out and in a better plane. 

<<<<< not a swim expert

But one did take a good picture of me once

Suzanne mentioned :10-:20/100m. I'm inclined to agree. As I said, because essentially his timing, rotation and kick are in order (and those really are the biggies and most difficult), a few small changes in arm position will likely make a huge difference.

Now to SUSTAIN that over a long swim ... he's going to actually have to swim some.

2012-02-26 11:33 AM
in reply to: #4065644

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)

I think your technique looks pretty good. There's no silver bullet for your next batch of improvements - it's 5 key things: 

1. As everyone has said, get your pull so you're pulling water back. Early Vertical Forearm is the key. 

2. On your 2nd pass across the pool (right to left), it didn't appear as if you ever had proper head position - you were breathing and looking forward, but never at the bottom of the pool. I think a lot may be gained by TI's concept of 'downhill swimming'. Problem is...head position is linked to hand position and pull, it all goes together. In the video here, point number 4, gives a good accounting of the concept. Bottom line: I think there's a lot you can get by having your head in line with your spine (looking down a LOT more) and driving your hand further and more downward, propelling your hips up. 

3. Your kick. It's a balance kick, not a propulsion kick, which is good, it's just not giving you anything. I think with the technique improvements in 1 and 2, plus a few more kick sets, you'll see that the two beat doesn't have to be  'just there', but will help flick you forward and achieve natural balance and body roll. 

4. Your turnover, or cadence. A lot of folks get into the 'distance per stroke' mentality and end up gliding for much longer than they should. There's a sweet spot, as gliding = decelerating, however, you can be pulling or accelerating the entire time. From what I can see, you could increase turnover. This comes from lots of yards swum PLUS quick, short repeats (like 100s - 25 ez, 25 tempo, 25 hard, 25 ez, for instance), and 

5. More yards. Lots more yards. 

There's a lot to like in the video you posted; don't discard what you're doing right - just tweak. Nothing fundamentally wrong.

2012-02-26 12:59 PM
in reply to: #4066957

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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
rkreuser - 2012-02-26 10:33 AM

here's a sweet spot, as gliding = decelerating, however, you can be pulling or accelerating the entire time.


The OP never actually glides. His hand begins moving down as soon as it reaches extension (extending isn't "glide") and then pushes down creating more drag than propulsion...the only reason he's still moving forward there is due to the momentum he just created on the previous stroke.

I think that because of his almost front quadrant timing and the shape of his underwater portion (enters and extends in the water then begins an inefficient pull) it can be easy to label this a lot of different things. It's not gliding and he doesn't have good DPS here as it is.

If the pull creates a lot of drag while creating a little bit of propulsion, which his pull is doing, then he's wasting energy. Increasing stroke rate at this point will simply tire him out a lot faster. Before increaseing rate he'll gain a lot by smoothing out the points you already emphasized, primarily head position/body balance and directing the stroke towards the rear wall. He doesn't even need to get EVF to improve his current pull...just improve his feel for when water is spilling off one side of his hand or the other.
2012-02-26 7:38 PM
in reply to: #4067040

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Master
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Rural Ontario
Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
Thank you for some great feedback. I'm glad to hear that my balance is not a complete mess and now I have a better understanding that my stroke / pull is a mess.  This gives me loads to work on. Laughing


2012-02-26 8:12 PM
in reply to: #4065644

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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
That cross-over swat thing is making you fishtail which you're correcting with your kick. If you put the effort into moving yourself forward instead of side to side, you'll be surprised at how much faster you'll be. Here's a still I shot to show you what I'm talking about



(swim.JPG)



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2012-02-26 8:48 PM
in reply to: #4065899

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Master
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
mgalanter - 2012-02-25 7:16 AM

Fastyellow - 2012-02-25 9:36 AM How often are you swimming? What do your normal swim workouts look like?

Since IMC last August... I took several baths and this week I swam 1000m as part of taping this footage.   Oh, wait, I think I see what you're getting at...  I may not be swimming enough?

Nothing anyone has said here will do squat for you unless you swim....lots more.

2012-02-26 11:22 PM
in reply to: #4067499

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Coach
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Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
beebs - 2012-02-26 7:12 PM

That cross-over swat thing is making you fishtail which you're correcting with your kick. If you put the effort into moving yourself forward instead of side to side, you'll be surprised at how much faster you'll be. Here's a still I shot to show you what I'm talking about


Nice screen shot..Lots of graceful arcs in that shot (that shouldn't be there).
2012-02-26 11:42 PM
in reply to: #4065644

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Veteran
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Great White North
Subject: RE: Fishes, please help this flounder (swim video critique)
As others have said midline, elbows and low hips. Poor body position is you biggest issue. Try 25s with a pull our between your ankles... it will force you to engage your core, then try to mimic that feeling while you are swimming without it... watch how high my hips are in this 200 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UREFVv7yHzU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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