Penalties at Kinetic Half
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2012-05-25 7:43 PM |
Member 30 | Subject: Penalties at Kinetic Half Don't get me wrong, Kinetic Half is a great event. Greg Hawkins and all the people at Set Up Events run great races. The race, Set Up, and Greg aren't the issue. But the number of penalties (likely mostly drafting) at the Kinetic Half skyrocked this year. And I find it hard to believe that there were more penalties because athlete behavior changed wildly en masse. As is the case in many Half Iron races, many of the athletes at Kinetic are experienced. ( I have done nearly 100 triathlons and 10 Half Iron races.) Our drafting behavior doesn't change wildly. And many of the athletes at Kinetic have done the race over and over. (I have done it four times.) So if changing athlete behavior and changing athletes don't explain the rise in penalties, what does? The official(s) calling the penalties changed or changed how they call penalties at this event. By the admission of Charlie Crawford, head of USAT officials, the 9.7% penalties at Kinetic this year, pushes the upper boundary of the normal drafting range. But the real issue is how this year's Kinetic Half compares to previous Kinetic Haf events. This year's race had nearly as many penalties as the last 3 years combined! 2012 48 2011 14 2010 14 2009 30 2008 13 2007 23 2006 13 In the previous six years of the event, there were an average of 17 penalties. This year 48. I think the most reasonable explanation for the 3.5 times increase in penalties is overzealous officiating. Charlie Crawford at USAT assures me that the head referee in question is professional and able. That may be true, but it misses the point. Even highly competent officials miss calls and have off days. To underscore my point that the general ability or professionalism of an official doesn't mean they can't make mistakes on a particular day, check out this recent blown call by Tim Welke a MLB official. Tim has umpired in 11 postseasons, including 4 World Series. Yet, he blows this call. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goZAKhjG15k Glenn Stephens |
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2012-05-25 7:49 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half Let me guess: One of those penalized was you. |
2012-05-25 7:54 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half I'm not sure I follow your logic. Just because athlete behavior hasn't changed (and this is a big assumption) it doesn't mean that existing behavior did not involve drafting that was simply not called. In the 3 years I've been racing, I've seen TONS of drafting...most of which goes unpenalized. I think it's rather refreshing to see the penalties called more often, and unless you have a specific instance to reference, I'm not sure why you assume that the rise in penalties is due to "overzealous" officiating or blown calls. Over the past couple of years, there has been more of an emphasis to call traveling in the NBA. The increase in calls doesn't mean that officials are being overzealous and blowing calls...it's simply that their is stricter enforcement on players who were breaking the rules and getting away with it before. Maybe your argument has some merits...but the logic you have provided to support that argument is a head scratcher to me. |
2012-05-25 10:02 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Master 1890 Cypress, CA | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half Maybe an attempt by the officials to stimulate a change in athlete behavior? |
2012-05-25 10:25 PM in reply to: #4229955 |
Regular 988 Westfield, IN | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half the bear - 2012-05-25 8:49 PM Let me guess: One of those penalized was you. STOP Cheating! and there will be fewer penalties. Not complicated. |
2012-05-25 10:29 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Veteran 549 | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half When I started tri's in the eighties there were no penalties. They gave you a warning or two and if you didnt comply you were disqualified. Consider yourself lucky. |
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2012-05-25 10:47 PM in reply to: #4229955 |
New user 327 | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half the bear - 2012-05-25 5:49 PM Let me guess: One of those penalized was you. Looking at the results he was. Having been penalized myself for something I, at the time, didn't think I did, the OP and I should probably take a cue from Armando Galarraga and smile and let it go. |
2012-05-25 10:53 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Master 1402 Cumming, Georgia | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half Good for them. I was a bike marshall last year at the Augusta 70.3 and to my surprise there were only 2 officials but 8 of us on motorcycles. I saw an unreal amount of drafting and was told by many participants to please do something. We were told not to talk to them without an official with us so I resorted to keeping water bottles, tubes, etc off the road. I feel like more penalties should be given but at the same time the courses on many raced are really packed. |
2012-05-25 11:14 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Member 48 Washington, DC | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half Eh, I don't really have a horse in this race but I saw plenty of people out there drafting. This isn't to say that any one person was or was not cheating or that this penalty or that penalty was justified, but the raw numbers don't surprise me or seem out of line. |
2012-05-26 4:02 AM in reply to: #4229951 |
Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half The RDs are taking the complaints about rampant drafting being ignored by the umpires to heart and are doing something about it. GOOD. |
2012-05-26 11:18 AM in reply to: #4230168 |
Coastal Carolina | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half DanielG - 2012-05-26 5:02 AM The RDs are taking the complaints about rampant drafting being ignored by the umpires to heart and are doing something about it. GOOD. X2. Call it every time. |
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2012-05-26 11:58 AM in reply to: #4230396 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half Tripopo - 2012-05-26 12:18 PM DanielG - 2012-05-26 5:02 AM The RDs are taking the complaints about rampant drafting being ignored by the umpires to heart and are doing something about it. GOOD. X2. Call it every time. X3 Mark |
2012-05-26 6:41 PM in reply to: #4230433 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half RedCorvette - 2012-05-26 12:58 PM x4. The amount of intentional drafting in most races is ridiculous. It's good to hear of a race where the efforts to to address it are being stepped up.Tripopo - 2012-05-26 12:18 PM DanielG - 2012-05-26 5:02 AM The RDs are taking the complaints about rampant drafting being ignored by the umpires to heart and are doing something about it. GOOD. X2. Call it every time. X3 Mark |
2012-05-26 9:56 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Pro 4360 Baton Rouge area | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half drghs3 - 2012-05-25 7:43 PM Our drafting behavior doesn't change wildly. Huh? Can you clarify this statement? Too easy to read it like you are saying you draft every race so it should be okay. That can't be right. Edited by GaryRM 2012-05-26 9:56 PM |
2012-05-27 1:46 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Expert 1074 Tyrone, Georgia | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half If it were the same athletes and same tactics as years past it seems like it may have been a problem with officials in prior years, not this year. |
2012-05-27 1:58 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Master 1584 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half This make me more likely to do this race in the future. Penalties for drafters! Edited by jcnipper 2012-05-27 1:58 PM |
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2012-05-27 2:31 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Expert 750 Hammond | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half I completely agree with issuing penalties for intentional drafting to cheat. My problem with some races though is that often times it's almost impossible not to draft. The last race I did had 1200 competitors. For those who rode in the 21ish+ mph range drafting would most likely have been intentional cheating for them as there wasn't a ton of racers maintaining those speeds. However, for those of us in the 16-20 mph range, it was the majority of the racers. We had a very small lane to ride in and it seemed like we were packed in worse than sardines. Several times I had to slow down to almost snail pace not to draft and not to block. It was extremely frustrating. I don't believe in cheating at all but when you ride the speed that the majority of riders are at, it's not so cut and dry. Now I did my absolute best not to draft , but I'm sure there were times when I wasn't officially three bikes back and could have been given a penalty, along with about 600 others in the race. I would have been peeved if I had because it certainly wasn't ever intentional. So I'm glad that the officials seemed to use some common sense discretion and not issue a drafting penalty every single time they could have. If RD's are getting increasing complaints about drafting penalties not being issued, they of course should instruct officials to pay attention and get stricter, but they also really need to look at their course, size of riding lane and number of participants. I know it's about them making money but if they are allowing so many participants that there isn't enough riding room, that may be a problem as well. Shelly |
2012-05-27 5:18 PM in reply to: #4229951 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half The one penalty I got was at St. Anthonys. I was passing a line of folks that were all bunched up and everyone was drafting due to number of athletes on the course at the same time. I was trying to follow the rules and I was the one penalized. I do agree with above poster that number of athletes in the race and the spacing of waves can make drafting inevitable. |
2012-05-28 6:51 AM in reply to: #4229951 |
Coastal Carolina | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half The half I did earlier this year was point to point on open roads and drafting was abundant and not called at all that I know of. A fellow racer told me she called about 6 guys out on it and their response was "don't worry you aren't in our age group" so she chicked all of them... Kinetic half is listed as a 2 loop bike course with a wave start and limited to 700 participants, not sure how crowded this would make it but I don't think it would be an issue honestly. I agree some races it is almost inevitable or unavoidable but the flagrant drafting that I've seen can be a turn off for an event. |
2012-05-28 7:30 AM in reply to: #4229951 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2012-05-29 10:38 AM in reply to: #4229951 |
Member 56 Virginia Beach | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half I raced the Kinetic as well this year. When looking at the results, I did notice more penalties than usual. The course was crowded in places. I did witness a fair amount of intential drafting. At one point I thought I got a penalty, as I was dropping back when the ref came by. The refs seemed to be very active all day. My take on drafting penalties is that half are deserved, the other half are not, and 90% of the drafting goes unnoticed. Not a perfect system. |
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2012-05-29 3:02 PM in reply to: #4229958 |
Veteran 300 | Subject: RE: Penalties at Kinetic Half tri808 - 2012-05-25 7:54 PM ... I've seen TONS of drafting...most of which goes unpenalized. I think it's rather refreshing to see the penalties called more often, and unless you have a specific instance to reference, I'm not sure why you assume that the rise in penalties is due to "overzealous" officiating or blown calls. THIS. And its the reason I'm choosing not to do a certain race this year. Its frustrating to pass people early in the bike course only to have them pass you later on riding in an echelon. |