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Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? (Page 4)
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 2012-09-13 10:12 AM in reply to: #4408999 |
Elite  6387    |  Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam?Goosedog - 2012-09-13 7:13 AM My apologies if this has been brought up in this thread. My state recently passed a state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. Of course, the charge was led, in large part, by Christian groups and passed in large part due to Christian voters. I should say, this is my impression unsupported by any sort of polling data. After reading and hearing some of the discussions on the issue, I began to question if there is something fundamentally wrong with Christianity. I'm talking here and now. Of course there are plenty of good Christians and where I live the majority opposed the amendment. But the full experience left me wondering what sort or strange sorcery could lead so many people to believe such silliness. I recognize this is a far cry from suicide bombings and stonings, but the question is very similar. Awesome... another religion thread that will solve nothing!!! So my take has always been that there is good in any religion and that good is pretty much universal to most cultures... kindness, forgivness, compassion, treat each other well. There is plenty of bad in religion, and that bad is pretty universal to most cultures... condemnation, vengence, merciless to all those not of the same kind. At the end of the day it is nothing more than a mirror of the people following. It is justification to how you want to live your life. People have good and bad in them. And we will all find what ever we seek. If we seek to live well with our fellow man, then there is much to be drawn toward in religion and it is a great vehicle to comune with other in love and kindness. If we seek to preserve only "us" over them, there is plenty to be drawn to in religion and it become a great vehicle to put up walls and devalue others. People are still animals no matter what corner of the world they are from, or what book they read. |
| 2012-09-13 10:56 AM in reply to: #4407722 |
| Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? I think there is something fundamentally wrong with any group, religion, race, nationality or club that says we are better than those who aren't part of our group, religion, race, nationality, club or whatever. |
| 2012-09-13 11:40 AM in reply to: #4408856 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? GomesBolt - 2012-09-13 4:20 AMMaybe a different thread here, but why should all Israelis be out of the Occupied Territories? Do you know how they got it in the first place (this time around, not Joshua's time)? Israel gets squeezed on the North by Syria, on the East by Jordan and the Iraqi Army and on the Gaza Strip by Egypt until they launch the Six Days War. They took the Sinai Penninsula, Gaza, West Bank, and the Golan Heights. In October of 1967, Israel offered to return the Sinai and Golan Heights, but they sent the offer to the US and we never passed it to the Arab League. Then they get attacked on Yom Kippur 1973 in a surprise attack. Israel again takes some of the Golan, backs up a bit on the Suez. Then Jimmy Carter negotiates the Camp David Accords, Israel gives back the Sinai up to Gaza. The general theme here is that Israel has been attacked several times and each time, they take a piece of the guy attacking them. Then they give a little back, then they're attacked again. So why should they give it back again? And for that matter, why is Jerusalem not allowed to belong to Israel? What is the significance for the Palestinians/Arabs? Look at the status of the area. Israel annexed East Jerusalem, offered equal citizenship to all there, and it is now part of Israel. They had the place, followed the procedure. With the rest of the Occupied Territories, they didn't. They didn't annex it, they sorta left it in limbo. Israel wants it? Annex it, and make it part of Israel. However, this would mean allowing a few million hostile people equal citizenship, which would be suicide. So if you aren't going to do that, get out. |
| 2012-09-13 11:43 AM in reply to: #4408871 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? mehaner - 2012-09-13 4:46 AM deuteronomy says to stone adulterers. word for word, you can pick that verse out of the book. is that what christians and jews are literally meant to do and is that what christians and jews all over the world condone?
I suppose the main difference is that Jews do not follow these instructions today as a rigid blueprint. They sorta adapted to the times, one might say. |
| 2012-09-13 11:44 AM in reply to: #4409160 |
Expert 839 Central Mass | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-09-13 7:21 AM gearboy - 2012-09-13 9:46 AM GomesBolt - 2012-09-13 9:00 AM The Quran never mentions Jerusalem though it existed at the time and though there was an Arabic word for it. It says "most distant mosque" which could not have been at the Temple Mount as there was no mosque there at that time! There was a Christian Church there. Also, Muhammad's territory didn't extend past Gaza. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests Palestinians were given Israel in 70 AD by the Romans. Between 70 AD and 698 AD, it was not a holy site for Islam.One more, if Muhammad ascended from Temple Mount, why does he have a tomb in Medina that is also a holy site? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Masjid_al-Nabawipick a death/ascension spot... I'm not sure what you are trying to go for here, but here is the reader's digest condesed version of the history as I understand it of Islam - Muhammed's parents lived in Mecca, a major trade crossroads at the time, I think making a living as makers of idols. Muhammed learned of the bible and both judaism and christianity because of the open nature of the trading at the time, and became convinced that he also was a prophet of the one god of Abraham. Initially, like Jesus, he preached peace, and saw himself as another in the lineage of judaic principles, so he had his followers pray towards Jerusalem. When they actually GOT to Jerusalem, they were rebuffed, and he became angry, and turned instead back to Mecca as a holy spot, that was being spoiled by all the idolators. So he rallied his people and returned to Mecca, engaged in an ultimately successful war, then expanded back to spread the word of God as he saw it. So many early jewish and christian holy sites were holy to islam, being seen by the muslims as successors to those faiths (in the same way that christians see themselves as successors to judaism w/r/t being favored by god - the same god). And the Koran reflects a history that did indeed recount a lot of warfare - much like the old testament recounts a fairly bloody history by the jews to take over territory that was then occupied by other tribes (like the Philistines - aka the Palestinians). But that does not make islam a violent religion any more so than the old testament makes judaism or christianity a violent religion. In fact, during the initial expansion of Islam, they were much more tolerant of people retaining their faiths than the christians of the time (think Spanish Inquisition and forced conversion of the jews). One might argue that the belief that those christians had (they were saving people from eternal hellfire since only accepting Jesus was the way to salvation, and therefore any torture you endured on earth was nothing to worry about) was evidence of the more violent nature of christianity. I still hear christians say that because I don't accept Jesus as my savior that I am doomed to spend eternity in hellfire. Fortunately very few of them seem to want to put me on the rack to get me to renounce my beliefs and accept theirs. What I was trying to say is that ALL of the major monotheistic religions have the same roots, and there is an inherent doctrine of tolerance towards others. It's the biased interpretation of these writings by so-called religious leaders with their own agenda that results in extremism. You see it in every religion. Islam is not exceptional, except in the extreme nature of the violence. I place the blame squarely on their societal structure. Keep a people poor and uneducated and they will be desperate for any leader that gives them hope, even if that better life can only be achieved through martyrdom. Depends on how you define major Sikh's are monotheistic, and very defiantly not Abrahamic, have similar roots as polytheistic Hinduism and Jainism and atheistic Buddhism. 50 million, 5th largest religion in the world (behind Christians, Islam, Hindu, and Buddhism, but bigger than Judiasm). But I'll give you that Zooastrainaism and other Persian religions aren't major :D . I don't know enough about them to know if they are even related to Abrahamic religions, just that they are ancient (pre-dating Christians by 1000+ years) |
| 2012-09-13 11:45 AM in reply to: #4408920 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? mehaner - 2012-09-13 5:18 AM GomesBolt - 2012-09-13 8:15 AM As always Meh, you are wise. most shocking thing i've ever read on BT! i gotta show my husband this
He will say that one must look at the context, and not pick one word or two out of the whole sentence. Maybe the translation used the wrong word........ |
| 2012-09-13 11:50 AM in reply to: #4408945 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-09-13 5:39 AM As an American Jew who has been to the ME on a number of occasions for business, I am also disappointed with the current Israeli government and their expansion of settlements in politically sensitive regions. On the other side, I believe Hamas relies heavily on keeping Israel as an enemy, and keeping their own people in poverty and poor education to ensure their own political future. Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel, and that is non-negotiable. There is no reason that a peaceful Palestinian state could not also have Jerusalem as their capitol, as there are few places in the world where so many different religions and people exist. One other comment, one of the holiest places for Jews is the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. Just above the wall is the Dome of the Rock, where Muslims believe Mohammed ascended to heaven, and Jews believe Abraham was prepared to sacrifice Isaac. How many places in the Muslim world do you see a Jewish holy site (or synagogue) being allowed to exist next to a Muslim place of worship?
Agree 100%.
One more detail. As Jew, I cannot enter the Dome of the Rock, except may certain outer spaces, and limited times. And this is in Israel. Find that anywhere else. |
| 2012-09-13 11:50 AM in reply to: #4408982 |
Expert 839 Central Mass | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? GomesBolt - 2012-09-13 6:00 AM Palestinians were given Israel in 70 AD by the Romans. Between 70 AD and 698 AD, it was not a holy site for Islam. However, from 70 AD to 610 AD, there was no Islam. Mohammed did not become a prophet till 610, thus there were no Muslims. From 70 to 610, Arabians were a motley bunch, based tribally, and having disparate religions - some Judiasm, some Christians, some pagans, some proto-Babaloynian, etc. |
| 2012-09-13 11:50 AM in reply to: #4409288 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? powerman - 2012-09-13 11:12 AM Awesome... another religion thread that will solve nothing!!! Yet it was sooo close.
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| 2012-09-13 11:52 AM in reply to: #4409070 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? trinnas - 2012-09-13 6:42 AM Oh and not ascended as in died, ascended as in taken to meat Allah.
And then came back? Didn't know that. Thanks. |
| 2012-09-13 11:53 AM in reply to: #4409070 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? trinnas - 2012-09-13 9:42 AM Oh and not ascended as in died, ascended as in taken to meat Allah. No comment.
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| 2012-09-13 11:55 AM in reply to: #4409185 |
Veteran 698 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? gearboy - 2012-09-13 7:32 AMI recall hearing about a jewish doctor in Israel who said the reason he treated Arabs was that if he did not, then arabs would mistreat jews. And so he would indirectly end up hurting fellow jews, which was against the tenets of the faith. Not that basic human decency and medical ethics required him to treat arabs.
Proof that you can be a doctor and still be a morally corrupt moron. |
| 2012-09-13 12:15 PM in reply to: #4409559 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? Goosedog - 2012-09-13 12:53 PM trinnas - 2012-09-13 9:42 AM Oh and not ascended as in died, ascended as in taken to meat Allah. No comment.
I'll bet it wasn't pork. |
| 2012-09-13 12:22 PM in reply to: #4409556 |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? r1237h - 2012-09-13 12:52 PM trinnas - 2012-09-13 6:42 AM Oh and not ascended as in died, ascended as in taken to meet Allah.
And then came back? Didn't know that. Thanks. Yes it is a common theme in many religions and mythologies as is a great flood, a virgin birth, and a number of other themes that I can't think of off the top of my head. Edited by trinnas 2012-09-13 12:23 PM |
| 2012-09-13 12:23 PM in reply to: #4409609 |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? mrbbrad - 2012-09-13 1:15 PM Goosedog - 2012-09-13 12:53 PM trinnas - 2012-09-13 9:42 AM Oh and not ascended as in died, ascended as in taken to meat Allah. No comment.
I'll bet it wasn't pork. Yeah... Heh heh... Oops, I guess I was a little hungry for lunch. |
| 2012-09-14 6:43 AM in reply to: #4407722 |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? I thought this was a great editorial by Ed Husain on CNN.com |
| 2012-09-14 7:53 AM in reply to: #4407722 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? I agree Brian, good article. |
| 2012-09-14 3:23 PM in reply to: #4411018 |
Elite 5145 Cleveland | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? Once you remove the Humans from the religions, they're all rather peaceful and coexist quite well..... so, I would say that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with any of them. |
| 2012-09-16 11:30 AM in reply to: #4407722 |
Champion 11641 Fairport, NY | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? ADMIN NOTE: A post that was over the line has been removed as were some that quoted it. The bar is set very low here when it comes to religious intolerance. There's a big difference between discussing a religion and making blanket derogatory statements about the adherents of one. Please keep this in mind.
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| 2012-09-17 10:33 AM in reply to: #4407722 |
Master 1440 | Subject: RE: Is there something fundamentally wrong with Islam? I would like to apologize to the group for my ill considered post on this subject. My intent was to say that it was the extrmeists that were wrong. I did not intend to indict the entire faith or those that peacefully follow it's teachings. |
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