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2012-11-10 8:46 AM

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Subject: Minimalist Training

Hey, what do you ppl think about this article written by Matt Fitzgerald?

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/triathlon/minimalist-ironman-training.aspx

Here's a quote from the article:

And by “successful” I don’t mean finishing alive. I mean covering the distance as fast as your genetic potential allows.

In a nutshell:

1. Learn to swim correctly

2. After you've learned to swim correctly, don't bother with it too much.

3. Cycling fitness helps your run

4. Do cycling intervals

5. More than 2 or 3 long rides are not necessary

I agree with some of those points. I'm going to work on my swim technique this winter...with a coach. Do you ppl think 3 sessions per week is enough to develop and maintain a fast swim? That's assuming you have technique down.

As for cycling fitness, I agree that it can translate to the run. In fact, I'm going to "kind of" use this approach to train for Boston. I'm going to run slightly less than I did during my last marathon training, but plan to follow a cycling plan that involves alot of work at threshold. I topped out at 60mpw during marathon training this past spring, only hitting that volume 1 time.

The last point is kind of interesting and one that I feel I "proved" for B2B half. I only did 2 rides longer than 3 hours, while doing a bunch of intervals during the build, and had one of the best bikes I've ever had. 

I realize there are NO shortcuts, but training smarter is a goal I am really interested in following for the coming year. For me, time is a commodity I don't have very much of...at all. All my training is before work and during lunch. Once in a while, I may workout during the week, but that's not often.

Would like to hear feedback from the knowledgeable lot of BTers that frequent this forum. 

Rock on!



Edited by d00d 2012-11-10 9:11 AM


2012-11-11 5:47 AM
in reply to: #4492829

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
While I am a big fan of Matt's guidance, this advice scares me a bit.  Let me chew on it more while I am out on the bike this morning, and put some more thoughts down later.  But my first reaction is yikes!
2012-11-11 7:50 AM
in reply to: #4492829

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training

Alright, let's dive into this one... I'll start with a few general points then shift into each leg of training based on his article.

The Purple Patch Effect:
- Matt Dixon has been in pretty much every Triathlon type of magazine the past few years showing off his high intensity program, aka train 12-15hr/wk.
- What most don't realize is that most/all of his athletes come from a High Volume background, so yes if you drop volume, add intensity (when there wasn't much at all before), and allow proper recovery then you will see positive results.
- From what I've seen those results will last about 2 years, after that the athlete will begin to falter (Injury or decrease in performance) because you haven't changed the training stress.
- I guess Fitzgerald caught onto that and is making a market move for himself.

General Notes:
- The article summarizes what can be deemed "Everyman" training. Where while training for an Ironman most individual can only train 12-15hr/wk due to other commitments.
- Tyler Stewart: Doesn't she come from a cycling background? One can ASSUME the reason she doesn't do long rides is because riding is her strength and she can use the other time to become a better swimmer or train for Western States as a google search provided haha.
- Andy Potts: Same deal, came from a swimming background and has a HUGE engine. He has his 1 long ride a week and 5-6 other rides of shorter intensity/duration because that's what he needs to work on.
- It's an oddity that both examples he provided, PRO'S, train way more than 12-15hr a week. I think that hurts his argument to begin with.

Swim:
- Yes, form is very important.
- Training here seems about right, 3x1hr in the pool, or perhaps 2x45' sessions and one longer 1:15-1:30 session a week when the extra distance is needed.
- I usually shoot for 2-4 swim sessions a week. 2x/wk will get me 2:30ish, but I average 3x/wk and 3:30ish in the pool. But that involves getting in about 10-20' BEFORE Masters starts 1-2x/wk to get in a little extra yardage during prime Ironman build time.

Bike:
- Yes bike fitness will translate to the run.
- Yes focusing on all energy sources is a good thing (aka doing some high intensity during the week or mixing it into your longer ride if appropriate).
- The biggest FAULT here is his examples. Most/All of the people you list who are doing 12-15hr/wk training for an Ironman have a background of High Volume at some point of their life. Potts, Stewart, Leito, Corbin, Kessler... all of those examples of 12-15hr/wks were putting in mega 30+ hour training weeks for the majority of their lives or at least some point in the past few years.
- I find it hard to believe that by training purely z3/4 (as some will think this article stipulates) will help you in an event that's (for the most part) a z2 race. You are working completely different energy systems than what you'll use while racing, so you actually become a pretty ineffective long course racer if you don't have an efficient base.
- I was doing 4-6 rides/wk these past few months. Usually an easier/skill day, a high intensity day (indoor cycling class), then 1-2 "long rides" (2-3+hr). Mainly because cycling is my weakness so I was working hard at it. Cycling would easily double my time spent elsewhere (3hr swim, 8-9hr cycling, 1-4hr running).
- On bigger cycling weeks my running would get cut down (pulling different strings). Some weeks I'd run MAYBE 10 miles, the next week I'd be Mid-30's. I'll say that luckily I'm able to adjust my run mileage easily from playing all sorts of sports and being light on my feet.

Run:
- He's not too far off here either. I'd just be careful of that "high-intensity" workout.
- The long run is still in play. How long is the question. I've had a guy Negative Split an Ironman with a long run of 15 miles. Now-a-days in some running circles 16 miles is a popular long run number.
- This is the most injury prone side of Triathlon, so if you have a history here then ease into it and take it easy, as it says you can gain fitness from cycling and it's better if you can stay injury free the whole time rather than playing with fire and trying to push it too often/too hard.
- For Ironman Training just be careful with your "high-intensity" work. Heck z3 felt like high intensity for me while IM training. It doesn't say you should be on the track busting out 200 repeats like a Kenyan. Look at what events you're doing and focus on workouts that will make you effective/efficient for that event.

Summary:
- Most normal people will only be able to train 12-15hr a week, perhaps stretching to 18hr if their lifestyle can agree for a few weeks here and there. So on that front this article makes sense, I just don't think it was portrayed well in that sense.
- I heard in some clinic I took that if you want to "maintain" then you do an activity 3x/wk, if you want to grow and develop you do it more frequently. However if you're good at a particular event then you can afford to reduce a bit of time spent there and invest that time in another area that needs greater development. For myself running usually takes a step back while my cycling goes up, but that is also to reduce impact on the body so I can get in the bigger/harder bike days and not fall apart.

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT. You have to look at everything you read/hear and take it into context. You cant' look at someone's training and go "Hey, Bill is doing a lot of interval work, why don't I do a lot of interval work?" Apply training stress when and where it's appropriate for the INDIVIDUAL.

It's better to train at 80% consistently and remain healthy than to go 100% and be teetering with burnout/injury. Consistency is what matters in Triathlon.

Whew, sorry for another long one. Please discuss and if you have any questions, feedback, different set of views then please share.

2012-11-11 4:37 PM
in reply to: #4492829

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training

I think his advice is great for the average MOPer.  

If you are trying to make the cutoff or Kona not so much.

2012-11-12 3:24 PM
in reply to: #4492829

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training

I took this approach with swimming this year and pulled it off.   I swam about the same times this year with only 60% of the volume (and I could hardly call what I did volume).   However, I will not be repeating that approach again.    I found that I turned a strength into above average leg.  

Like everything else, training theories follow trends and trendy approaches.  I like to think of the min training trend as "having your cake and eating too" approach.  Who would not want to put in less time and perform at a high level?  Very seductive pitch.  There is some data and result to support the min. training approach.  I think this is just another example of a training approach that will work for some and not for others.   Best thing is to work with a coach and find the approach that works best for YOU.

2012-11-12 4:40 PM
in reply to: #4493610

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
Shanks - 2012-11-11 8:50 AM

....- What most don't realize is that most/all of his athletes come from a High Volume background, so yes if you drop volume, add intensity (when there wasn't much at all before), and allow proper recovery then you will see positive results. ...

....- Tyler Stewart: Doesn't she come from a cycling background? One can ASSUME the reason she doesn't do long rides is because riding is her strength and she can use the other time to become a better swimmer or train for Western States as a google search provided haha....

 

thecaptin - 2012-11-12 4:24 PM

I took this approach with swimming this year and pulled it off. 

(Note: thecaptin comes from a very strong swimming back ground)

 

The d00d and I were talking last week about developing running legs, cycling legs, and webbed fingers in order to get better.  We both did crazy run volume this winter and saw big increases in our running fitness.  We both were always good runners, but last winter gave us the base to build off of.  It's very easy now for either of us to do a big volume (200 miles) month or focus on speed.  Obviously if we did the same high volume running this winter we would see gains, but they would be much smaller.  

So, how do we do the same for cycling and swimming?  Actually, let's just start with cycling.  

What if we did 800 miles of riding for 3 months with plenty of intensity?  This would be similar to last winters running.  

What about setting a volume floor like 300 miles and seeing how many consecutive months we can maintain that?  This would be similar to running 100 miles a month over and over to build consistency. 

Join a cycling team and have our rears handed to us for a few months?  

Basically, how did you cyclists out there develop cycling legs?



2012-11-12 10:17 PM
in reply to: #4492829

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
I can't pretend that I have any where near the cycling legs that I once had...but it was hard volume for a few years that gave me results.  200 plus miles a week and most were hard, very little junk miles.  I was constantly hanging on the back for dear life in group rides and races.  If it does not kill you, it will make you stronger.  Singular focus for winter would produce results, but I think it is harder cycling than most tri focused athletes think.
2012-11-13 11:10 AM
in reply to: #4492829

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training

I consider myself a decent cyclist (time trialer) and I think like running there is a certain part that is natural. However, to maximize my range of potential I trained in all three systems riding a lot of hard and long miles. Hills, rolling and flats. Not enough time in the gaps but when I do go I feel a nice fitness boost.

Its never enough but my watts always seemed to grow with high volume and hard riding. You can get away with one long ride per week but to get two or more really helps. Interval sessions are also very good. Unlike running, you can get away with both volume and intensity on the bike. The trainer has been my friend like many of the better cycling triathletes. I hear the group rides are great, but I always end up pulling the whole time.

Simple answers but that stuff really works.

2012-11-13 2:59 PM
in reply to: #4495436

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
brown_dog_us - 2012-11-12 5:40 PM

What if we did 800 miles of riding for 3 months with plenty of intensity?  This would be similar to last winters running.  

What about setting a volume floor like 300 miles and seeing how many consecutive months we can maintain that?  This would be similar to running 100 miles a month over and over to build consistency. 

Join a cycling team and have our rears handed to us for a few months?  

Basically, how did you cyclists out there develop cycling legs?

You have to look at yourself as an individual and what races you'll be doing next year.

Big Miles method: 800 miles a month on the bike is pretty solid, but if it's not something you've done before then up it bit by bit till you can handle the miles and still function in your daily life. Most of this is base miles but z3/4 gets sprinkled in via hills on your routes, not forcing the effort, just letting the HR rise a bit as you climb.

Intensity method: I hate being cold. So spending a good bit of time on the trainer during the winter seems like a good idea. You target a few specific areas that you need to work on (single leg drills, climbing strength, threshold work, etc...) and you develop 2-4 weekly trainer workouts (60-75')to help develop those area's. Toss in a 2-3hr weekend ride to round things out and boom!

Mixed Bag: Since your time during the week is limited you do focused, high intensity work on the bike during the week and on the weekend you have back to back rides (Sat and Sun 2-3+hr rides), usually 1 day much longer than the other (i.e. 4hr on Sat, 2hr on Sun). The thing here is either moving your "long run" to mid-week or not having a "long run" for a few months as you develop the bike. Focus more on frequency and form with 1-2 moderate mile runs (say 10mi is your long run then 6-8mi could be your moderate mile run) which would be easier to fit in time wise and limit leg fatigue that would allow you fresher legs on the bike.

Usually the Mixed Bag is the way to go, that way you're not neglecting a particular energy source but you're still focused on getting in big mile months and working on your base (so allow for a quality warm up and appropriate recovery during the harder mid-week days).

Hope that helps, reply with any other questions!

2012-11-14 1:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training

You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training?   Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike.

I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI.

2012-11-14 3:16 PM
in reply to: #4498222

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM

You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training?   Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike.

I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI.

Work your weakest link very hard and just some maintenance for the other two disciplines.

 

ROI is a tough one.  The best fitness ROI is running because you work the hardest per hour while running.  The best for bleeding over to the other disciplines is cycling, but cycling takes up the most time.  Finally, if you suck at swimming you will need to work tons on running and cycling to make up for that, so you would get a better ROI by learning to swim.



Edited by brown_dog_us 2012-11-14 3:19 PM


2012-11-15 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM

You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training?   Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike.

I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI.

Pick one and work it.  Seriously, don't spread out the effort because you will get minimal gains in 3 vs huge in 1 (pick one)

2012-11-15 12:04 PM
in reply to: #4499370

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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training

For my athletes, I would see how much time available and try and apportion it out to the limiters taking into consideration ROI.  A lot can be done in a week though so I wouldn't neglect any of the disciplines including transitions. I don't think Dan meant that a focus on one means an ignorance of the others. So I would not take his words to mean cycle to the exclusion of running or swimming or vice versa.

The main reason I have chosen to focus on swim for myself, as its clearly my limiter (two weapon charlie), is that I am sick of not being able to figure out a technical activity like musical instruments, playing golf, shooting foul shots, etc. I think its not the best use of my time or money but I have to give myself a fair shot at learning something harder for me.

Also, I am edging closer to the front end of the AG since my weight loss and every edge will help me if I try to make a push to qualifying, which may be in jeopardy because of my foot. Hopefully the healing process continues.

Again, don't neglect any of the disciplines. Emphasize the one that gives you the biggest pay off race time. 

 

2012-11-16 9:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
Marvarnett - 2012-11-15 11:31 AM
gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM

You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training?   Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike.

I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI.

Pick one and work it.  Seriously, don't spread out the effort because you will get minimal gains in 3 vs huge in 1 (pick one)

I ask because I am horrible at running.  I am not strong in any events but I tired of not being a better runner.  My hope is that it will carry over to the others.

2012-11-16 4:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training
gabrelsj - 2012-11-16 10:53 AM
Marvarnett - 2012-11-15 11:31 AM
gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM

You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training?   Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike.

I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI.

Pick one and work it.  Seriously, don't spread out the effort because you will get minimal gains in 3 vs huge in 1 (pick one)

I ask because I am horrible at running.  I am not strong in any events but I tired of not being a better runner.  My hope is that it will carry over to the others.

Harvey is mostly correct in what I meant.  But I will clarify.

If you want to work on your running, then run 5-6x per week and do 1 swim a week and 2 bikes a week.  Be smart about your mileage on the run.

If you want to work on your biking, then bike 4-5x per week and do 1 swim and 3 runs a week

If you want to work on your swim, then swim 5x per week and do 2 bikes and 3 runs a week.

If you have a true limiter, mine is running, then do something like the above for 8-10 weeks for the required discipline. 

The 1 swim/week I would say is about 3k mostly drills and a mix of hard efforts (200-300s @ 80-90%)

Gabrelsj:  If you feel you are weak all around, then do the above pattern for 4-5 week for each discipline. 

NOTE:  THESE ARE GENERAL GUIDELINES. 

And please monitor your mileage on the run as that is the quickest way to de-rail  your efforts.  Lots of small runs make up those 5-6 runs/week.

2012-11-17 2:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Minimalist Training

I've really struggled with the idea of only working one discipline to improve it while only maintaining the others...In a perfect world, I'd love to work all 3.

Really going to have to sit down and digest this.



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