Minimalist Training
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2012-11-10 8:46 AM |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: Minimalist Training Hey, what do you ppl think about this article written by Matt Fitzgerald? http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/triathlon/minimalist-ironman-training.aspx Here's a quote from the article: And by “successful” I don’t mean finishing alive. I mean covering the distance as fast as your genetic potential allows. In a nutshell: 1. Learn to swim correctly 2. After you've learned to swim correctly, don't bother with it too much. 3. Cycling fitness helps your run 4. Do cycling intervals 5. More than 2 or 3 long rides are not necessary I agree with some of those points. I'm going to work on my swim technique this winter...with a coach. Do you ppl think 3 sessions per week is enough to develop and maintain a fast swim? That's assuming you have technique down. As for cycling fitness, I agree that it can translate to the run. In fact, I'm going to "kind of" use this approach to train for Boston. I'm going to run slightly less than I did during my last marathon training, but plan to follow a cycling plan that involves alot of work at threshold. I topped out at 60mpw during marathon training this past spring, only hitting that volume 1 time. The last point is kind of interesting and one that I feel I "proved" for B2B half. I only did 2 rides longer than 3 hours, while doing a bunch of intervals during the build, and had one of the best bikes I've ever had. I realize there are NO shortcuts, but training smarter is a goal I am really interested in following for the coming year. For me, time is a commodity I don't have very much of...at all. All my training is before work and during lunch. Once in a while, I may workout during the week, but that's not often. Would like to hear feedback from the knowledgeable lot of BTers that frequent this forum. Rock on! Edited by d00d 2012-11-10 9:11 AM |
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2012-11-11 5:47 AM in reply to: #4492829 |
Veteran 236 Washington, Georgia | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training While I am a big fan of Matt's guidance, this advice scares me a bit. Let me chew on it more while I am out on the bike this morning, and put some more thoughts down later. But my first reaction is yikes! |
2012-11-11 7:50 AM in reply to: #4492829 |
Extreme Veteran 448 Atlanta | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training Alright, let's dive into this one... I'll start with a few general points then shift into each leg of training based on his article. The Purple Patch Effect: General Notes: Swim: Bike: Run: Summary: CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT. You have to look at everything you read/hear and take it into context. You cant' look at someone's training and go "Hey, Bill is doing a lot of interval work, why don't I do a lot of interval work?" Apply training stress when and where it's appropriate for the INDIVIDUAL. It's better to train at 80% consistently and remain healthy than to go 100% and be teetering with burnout/injury. Consistency is what matters in Triathlon. Whew, sorry for another long one. Please discuss and if you have any questions, feedback, different set of views then please share. |
2012-11-11 4:37 PM in reply to: #4492829 |
Elite 3658 Roswell, GA | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training I think his advice is great for the average MOPer. If you are trying to make the cutoff or Kona not so much. |
2012-11-12 3:24 PM in reply to: #4492829 |
Master 1730 Atlanta, GA | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training I took this approach with swimming this year and pulled it off. I swam about the same times this year with only 60% of the volume (and I could hardly call what I did volume). However, I will not be repeating that approach again. I found that I turned a strength into above average leg. Like everything else, training theories follow trends and trendy approaches. I like to think of the min training trend as "having your cake and eating too" approach. Who would not want to put in less time and perform at a high level? Very seductive pitch. There is some data and result to support the min. training approach. I think this is just another example of a training approach that will work for some and not for others. Best thing is to work with a coach and find the approach that works best for YOU. |
2012-11-12 4:40 PM in reply to: #4493610 |
Elite 3658 Roswell, GA | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training Shanks - 2012-11-11 8:50 AM ....- What most don't realize is that most/all of his athletes come from a High Volume background, so yes if you drop volume, add intensity (when there wasn't much at all before), and allow proper recovery then you will see positive results. ... ....- Tyler Stewart: Doesn't she come from a cycling background? One can ASSUME the reason she doesn't do long rides is because riding is her strength and she can use the other time to become a better swimmer or train for Western States as a google search provided haha....
thecaptin - 2012-11-12 4:24 PM (Note: thecaptin comes from a very strong swimming back ground)I took this approach with swimming this year and pulled it off.
The d00d and I were talking last week about developing running legs, cycling legs, and webbed fingers in order to get better. We both did crazy run volume this winter and saw big increases in our running fitness. We both were always good runners, but last winter gave us the base to build off of. It's very easy now for either of us to do a big volume (200 miles) month or focus on speed. Obviously if we did the same high volume running this winter we would see gains, but they would be much smaller. So, how do we do the same for cycling and swimming? Actually, let's just start with cycling. What if we did 800 miles of riding for 3 months with plenty of intensity? This would be similar to last winters running. What about setting a volume floor like 300 miles and seeing how many consecutive months we can maintain that? This would be similar to running 100 miles a month over and over to build consistency. Join a cycling team and have our rears handed to us for a few months? Basically, how did you cyclists out there develop cycling legs? |
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2012-11-12 10:17 PM in reply to: #4492829 |
Master 1730 Atlanta, GA | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training I can't pretend that I have any where near the cycling legs that I once had...but it was hard volume for a few years that gave me results. 200 plus miles a week and most were hard, very little junk miles. I was constantly hanging on the back for dear life in group rides and races. If it does not kill you, it will make you stronger. Singular focus for winter would produce results, but I think it is harder cycling than most tri focused athletes think. |
2012-11-13 11:10 AM in reply to: #4492829 |
Elite 3495 SE | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training I consider myself a decent cyclist (time trialer) and I think like running there is a certain part that is natural. However, to maximize my range of potential I trained in all three systems riding a lot of hard and long miles. Hills, rolling and flats. Not enough time in the gaps but when I do go I feel a nice fitness boost. Its never enough but my watts always seemed to grow with high volume and hard riding. You can get away with one long ride per week but to get two or more really helps. Interval sessions are also very good. Unlike running, you can get away with both volume and intensity on the bike. The trainer has been my friend like many of the better cycling triathletes. I hear the group rides are great, but I always end up pulling the whole time. Simple answers but that stuff really works. |
2012-11-13 2:59 PM in reply to: #4495436 |
Extreme Veteran 448 Atlanta | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training brown_dog_us - 2012-11-12 5:40 PM What if we did 800 miles of riding for 3 months with plenty of intensity? This would be similar to last winters running. What about setting a volume floor like 300 miles and seeing how many consecutive months we can maintain that? This would be similar to running 100 miles a month over and over to build consistency. Join a cycling team and have our rears handed to us for a few months? Basically, how did you cyclists out there develop cycling legs? You have to look at yourself as an individual and what races you'll be doing next year. Big Miles method: 800 miles a month on the bike is pretty solid, but if it's not something you've done before then up it bit by bit till you can handle the miles and still function in your daily life. Most of this is base miles but z3/4 gets sprinkled in via hills on your routes, not forcing the effort, just letting the HR rise a bit as you climb. Intensity method: I hate being cold. So spending a good bit of time on the trainer during the winter seems like a good idea. You target a few specific areas that you need to work on (single leg drills, climbing strength, threshold work, etc...) and you develop 2-4 weekly trainer workouts (60-75')to help develop those area's. Toss in a 2-3hr weekend ride to round things out and boom! Mixed Bag: Since your time during the week is limited you do focused, high intensity work on the bike during the week and on the weekend you have back to back rides (Sat and Sun 2-3+hr rides), usually 1 day much longer than the other (i.e. 4hr on Sat, 2hr on Sun). The thing here is either moving your "long run" to mid-week or not having a "long run" for a few months as you develop the bike. Focus more on frequency and form with 1-2 moderate mile runs (say 10mi is your long run then 6-8mi could be your moderate mile run) which would be easier to fit in time wise and limit leg fatigue that would allow you fresher legs on the bike. Usually the Mixed Bag is the way to go, that way you're not neglecting a particular energy source but you're still focused on getting in big mile months and working on your base (so allow for a quality warm up and appropriate recovery during the harder mid-week days). Hope that helps, reply with any other questions! |
2012-11-14 1:12 PM in reply to: #4492829 |
Veteran 446 | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training? Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike. I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI. |
2012-11-14 3:16 PM in reply to: #4498222 |
Elite 3658 Roswell, GA | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training? Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike. I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI. Work your weakest link very hard and just some maintenance for the other two disciplines.
ROI is a tough one. The best fitness ROI is running because you work the hardest per hour while running. The best for bleeding over to the other disciplines is cycling, but cycling takes up the most time. Finally, if you suck at swimming you will need to work tons on running and cycling to make up for that, so you would get a better ROI by learning to swim. Edited by brown_dog_us 2012-11-14 3:19 PM |
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2012-11-15 11:31 AM in reply to: #4498222 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training? Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike. I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI. Pick one and work it. Seriously, don't spread out the effort because you will get minimal gains in 3 vs huge in 1 (pick one) |
2012-11-15 12:04 PM in reply to: #4499370 |
Elite 3495 SE | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training For my athletes, I would see how much time available and try and apportion it out to the limiters taking into consideration ROI. A lot can be done in a week though so I wouldn't neglect any of the disciplines including transitions. I don't think Dan meant that a focus on one means an ignorance of the others. So I would not take his words to mean cycle to the exclusion of running or swimming or vice versa. The main reason I have chosen to focus on swim for myself, as its clearly my limiter (two weapon charlie), is that I am sick of not being able to figure out a technical activity like musical instruments, playing golf, shooting foul shots, etc. I think its not the best use of my time or money but I have to give myself a fair shot at learning something harder for me. Also, I am edging closer to the front end of the AG since my weight loss and every edge will help me if I try to make a push to qualifying, which may be in jeopardy because of my foot. Hopefully the healing process continues. Again, don't neglect any of the disciplines. Emphasize the one that gives you the biggest pay off race time.
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2012-11-16 9:53 AM in reply to: #4499370 |
Veteran 446 | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training Marvarnett - 2012-11-15 11:31 AM gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training? Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike. I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI. Pick one and work it. Seriously, don't spread out the effort because you will get minimal gains in 3 vs huge in 1 (pick one) I ask because I am horrible at running. I am not strong in any events but I tired of not being a better runner. My hope is that it will carry over to the others. |
2012-11-16 4:06 PM in reply to: #4500502 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training gabrelsj - 2012-11-16 10:53 AM Marvarnett - 2012-11-15 11:31 AM gabrelsj - 2012-11-14 2:12 PM You all are seasoned tirathletes so for the newer folks what would you say is the best ROI for winter training? Big run miles like dood and brown dog did or heavy on the bike. I know the best answer might be work on all three but I am wanting to know, in your opinion, which sport bleeds over the most into the other two...as far as ROI. Pick one and work it. Seriously, don't spread out the effort because you will get minimal gains in 3 vs huge in 1 (pick one) I ask because I am horrible at running. I am not strong in any events but I tired of not being a better runner. My hope is that it will carry over to the others. Harvey is mostly correct in what I meant. But I will clarify. If you want to work on your running, then run 5-6x per week and do 1 swim a week and 2 bikes a week. Be smart about your mileage on the run. If you want to work on your swim, then swim 5x per week and do 2 bikes and 3 runs a week. The 1 swim/week I would say is about 3k mostly drills and a mix of hard efforts (200-300s @ 80-90%) Gabrelsj: If you feel you are weak all around, then do the above pattern for 4-5 week for each discipline. NOTE: THESE ARE GENERAL GUIDELINES. |
2012-11-17 2:59 PM in reply to: #4492829 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Minimalist Training I've really struggled with the idea of only working one discipline to improve it while only maintaining the others...In a perfect world, I'd love to work all 3. Really going to have to sit down and digest this. |
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