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2013-01-29 4:55 PM
in reply to: #4597695


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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?

 

if you aint cheating, you anit trying...



2013-01-29 5:47 PM
in reply to: #4600191

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
Marvarnett - 2013-01-29 4:35 PM
TriMyBest - 2013-01-29 9:54 AM

This is an interesting discussion that never gets old.

Maybe it's semantics, but I don't qualify all rules violations as cheating.  IMO, cheating is intentionally breaking the rules to gain a competitive advantage.  On the other hand inadvertently breaking a rule with no advantage gained isn't cheating.  It just happens, and you need to deal with it.

It's the difference between intentionally sucking onto someone's wheel during the bike, and getting caught up in a group of riders at a bottleneck.

I do believe that Lance used those exact words to justify his doping.  He wasn't gaining a competitive advantage because everyone else was doping.  Slightly apples to oranges, but you know what I mean.

Only, he WAS intentionally breaking the rules to gain advantage. Whether anyone else is doing the same is irrelevant.
2013-01-29 6:43 PM
in reply to: #4598910

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
mr2tony - 2013-01-28 7:47 PM
Kido - 2013-01-28 1:48 PM

I guess I have a comment on this issue and some of the posts.

I see your point and agree with most of it, and you can do what you want.  But FOR ME...  It doesn't matter if "they don't care" if you are slow or not going for a podium spot.  Or it only matters if you get caught or do it in front of an official.  It's a RULE so I try not to break it.  It doesn't matter if they don't care, or I can get away with it.  I care and I would know...

I just carefully plan my race clothes.  I either have disposable gloves or something I can throw in the trash, or know I can stash it in my special needs bag if needed.  I usually dress to be cold at the start, knowing I will warm up later.

I don't care if other people want to drop off stuff, honestly.  I don't judge.  But I don't in the spirit of the sport and the rules.

It's a calculated risk that I'm willing to take. Like speeding or drifting through a stop sign. My guess is there either won't be a cop around to catch me or if there is he won't care enough to pull me of. But the rule is the rule and if they want the can penalize me for handing off a shirt to family members. It's worth a 2-minuter to not have to throw it away or lug it along for another 15 or 16 miles. That said, if The Bear is officiating, you can rest assured I won't be cheating. That's one curmedgeonly Cajun!

And that's fine for you.

I would feel guilty and unhappy with myself, so I choose to lug it.  But again, I plan carefully so that shouldn't happen in the first place.

I bought a 99 cent fleece hat and used old tube socks as arm warmers on a run just so IF I needed to get rid of them, I could throw them in the trash and not throw $25 arm warmers or a $15 running hat away.  Or tie my fleece around my waste or hang my sunglasses on my collar so I don't have to ditch them - I wouldn't hand them away.  Just me.  I like to know I did my best to follow all the rules at all times, rather than calculate my risks.  Then no one, no how, no where, can say I got an advantage.

2013-01-29 7:20 PM
in reply to: #4597695

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?

For me, the real issue here is the "intent" of the rules... Abandonment = let's not leave a bunch of trash on the course.  Passing a used gu or tee shirt to a friend on the side of the course is not an advantage. 

I am willing to bet that same friend who took the gu is also cheering on all of the other racers and making for a better race experience for everyone - Hard for some of us to belive, but your friends and family are cheering on your competition!  As most of us will not be on the poduim, it is important to keep the racing in perspective.

 

 

2013-02-01 8:11 AM
in reply to: #4597695

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?

This past fall I some how did not put my running shorts in my transition bag as IMAZ.  So started running in my UA Compression.  Saw my wife coming out of transition and told her about the issue.  She did ask race officials if it was OK to get me my shorts for when I come around after lap 1 and they were fine with it.  Probably more than fine

 

2013-02-03 7:56 AM
in reply to: #4597695

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?

For a WTC (IM) race, do they actually give penalties on the run that are anything other than a DQ for severe violations? I know how the penalty tents on the bike work, but I've never seen mention of a penalty tent on the run or of variable time penalties being assessed. How would they be included in the results since there's not "penalty" column to add the time into.

Every year at the hot races in Texas, you see a guys running with no shirt. I also always see a few people running with headphones.

My speculation is that WTC uses an "honor system" approach to enforcement of rules on the run, but I don't know that for sure.



2013-02-03 12:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
g_shotts - 2013-02-03 7:56 AM

For a WTC (IM) race, do they actually give penalties on the run that are anything other than a DQ for severe violations? I know how the penalty tents on the bike work, but I've never seen mention of a penalty tent on the run or of variable time penalties being assessed. How would they be included in the results since there's not "penalty" column to add the time into.

Every year at the hot races in Texas, you see a guys running with no shirt. I also always see a few people running with headphones.

My speculation is that WTC uses an "honor system" approach to enforcement of rules on the run, but I don't know that for sure.

I've worked New Orleans's IM70.3 every year in existence and we do officiate the run on bicycles. No penalty tent but we do "stand down" the offending participants for a couple minutes. I've penalized runners for headphones, naked torso (usually just "put that shirt back on and don't let me see it off again.'), outside assistance (nutrition hand-up), and pacing.

2013-02-03 12:19 PM
in reply to: #4606430

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
the bear - 2013-02-03 12:01 PM

I've worked New Orleans's IM70.3 every year in existence and we do officiate the run on bicycles. No penalty tent but we do "stand down" the offending participants for a couple minutes. I've penalized runners for headphones, naked torso (usually just "put that shirt back on and don't let me see it off again.'), outside assistance (nutrition hand-up), and pacing.

So can you see a case where you would penalize someone for giving something to a spectator?  In that same case would you also penalize them for throwing the same thing away?

I guess I can't see anything significant enough that would be a benefit to carry up to the point you handed it off.

2013-02-03 12:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-03 12:19 PM
the bear - 2013-02-03 12:01 PM

I've worked New Orleans's IM70.3 every year in existence and we do officiate the run on bicycles. No penalty tent but we do "stand down" the offending participants for a couple minutes. I've penalized runners for headphones, naked torso (usually just "put that shirt back on and don't let me see it off again.'), outside assistance (nutrition hand-up), and pacing.

So can you see a case where you would penalize someone for giving something to a spectator?  In that same case would you also penalize them for throwing the same thing away?

I guess I can't see anything significant enough that would be a benefit to carry up to the point you handed it off.

I guess it would be possible but it would have to involve an unfair advantage or safety issue, like a water bottle ejecting onto the course. Littering out of the view of an aid station is definitely a penalty if seen.

Even the OP's situation could be construed as an unfair advantage as he had the use of the sunglasses during the day but did not have to carry them after the sun went down. Others without the person to hand them to had to do without, carry them the whole time, or throw them away in the aid stations.

Would I penalize a 16-hour finisher for that? If I saw it I would probably tell him to stop and take the glasses back. Th disruption would be penalty enough.

2013-02-03 10:56 PM
in reply to: #4600398

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
Kido - 2013-01-29 6:43 PM

mr2tony - 2013-01-28 7:47 PM
Kido - 2013-01-28 1:48 PM

I guess I have a comment on this issue and some of the posts.

I see your point and agree with most of it, and you can do what you want.  But FOR ME...  It doesn't matter if "they don't care" if you are slow or not going for a podium spot.  Or it only matters if you get caught or do it in front of an official.  It's a RULE so I try not to break it.  It doesn't matter if they don't care, or I can get away with it.  I care and I would know...

I just carefully plan my race clothes.  I either have disposable gloves or something I can throw in the trash, or know I can stash it in my special needs bag if needed.  I usually dress to be cold at the start, knowing I will warm up later.

I don't care if other people want to drop off stuff, honestly.  I don't judge.  But I don't in the spirit of the sport and the rules.

It's a calculated risk that I'm willing to take. Like speeding or drifting through a stop sign. My guess is there either won't be a cop around to catch me or if there is he won't care enough to pull me of. But the rule is the rule and if they want the can penalize me for handing off a shirt to family members. It's worth a 2-minuter to not have to throw it away or lug it along for another 15 or 16 miles. That said, if The Bear is officiating, you can rest assured I won't be cheating. That's one curmedgeonly Cajun!

And that's fine for you.

I would feel guilty and unhappy with myself, so I choose to lug it.  But again, I plan carefully so that shouldn't happen in the first place.

I bought a 99 cent fleece hat and used old tube socks as arm warmers on a run just so IF I needed to get rid of them, I could throw them in the trash and not throw $25 arm warmers or a $15 running hat away.  Or tie my fleece around my waste or hang my sunglasses on my collar so I don't have to ditch them - I wouldn't hand them away.  Just me.  I like to know I did my best to follow all the rules at all times, rather than calculate my risks.  Then no one, no how, no where, can say I got an advantage.




At IMAZ, I had Monica's parents hold my Nebraska jersey, which I wore on the bike, until the last lap so I could get my finisher's photo in it. My only other option would be to buy a second Nebraska jersey to the tune of about $100 to use it both on the ride and on the last lap of the run. Yeah, the 2-minute penalty totally would've been worth it.

I don't see how me giving my jersey to a family member gave me any sort of advantage over someone who threw their 99-cent shirts in the garbage. Technically, we're both unloading things we're not going to use, it's just a matter of where.
2013-02-04 9:55 PM
in reply to: #4606469

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
the bear - 2013-02-03 12:44 PM
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-03 12:19 PM
the bear - 2013-02-03 12:01 PM

I've worked New Orleans's IM70.3 every year in existence and we do officiate the run on bicycles. No penalty tent but we do "stand down" the offending participants for a couple minutes. I've penalized runners for headphones, naked torso (usually just "put that shirt back on and don't let me see it off again.'), outside assistance (nutrition hand-up), and pacing.

So can you see a case where you would penalize someone for giving something to a spectator?  In that same case would you also penalize them for throwing the same thing away?

I guess I can't see anything significant enough that would be a benefit to carry up to the point you handed it off.

I guess it would be possible but it would have to involve an unfair advantage or safety issue, like a water bottle ejecting onto the course. Littering out of the view of an aid station is definitely a penalty if seen.

So how about stopping to get a family member to apply sunscreen (say at a HIM where there aren't volunteers to do this)?



2013-02-05 2:46 AM
in reply to: #4608740

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
sand101 - 2013-02-04 10:55 PM
the bear - 2013-02-03 12:44 PM
NewClydesdale - 2013-02-03 12:19 PM
the bear - 2013-02-03 12:01 PM

I've worked New Orleans's IM70.3 every year in existence and we do officiate the run on bicycles. No penalty tent but we do "stand down" the offending participants for a couple minutes. I've penalized runners for headphones, naked torso (usually just "put that shirt back on and don't let me see it off again.'), outside assistance (nutrition hand-up), and pacing.

So can you see a case where you would penalize someone for giving something to a spectator?  In that same case would you also penalize them for throwing the same thing away?

I guess I can't see anything significant enough that would be a benefit to carry up to the point you handed it off.

I guess it would be possible but it would have to involve an unfair advantage or safety issue, like a water bottle ejecting onto the course. Littering out of the view of an aid station is definitely a penalty if seen.

So how about stopping to get a family member to apply sunscreen (say at a HIM where there aren't volunteers to do this)?

How does stopping during a race provide an unfair advantage?
2013-02-05 1:38 PM
in reply to: #4607073

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?
mr2tony - 2013-02-03 8:56 PM
Kido - 2013-01-29 6:43 PM
mr2tony - 2013-01-28 7:47 PM
Kido - 2013-01-28 1:48 PM

I guess I have a comment on this issue and some of the posts.

I see your point and agree with most of it, and you can do what you want.  But FOR ME...  It doesn't matter if "they don't care" if you are slow or not going for a podium spot.  Or it only matters if you get caught or do it in front of an official.  It's a RULE so I try not to break it.  It doesn't matter if they don't care, or I can get away with it.  I care and I would know...

I just carefully plan my race clothes.  I either have disposable gloves or something I can throw in the trash, or know I can stash it in my special needs bag if needed.  I usually dress to be cold at the start, knowing I will warm up later.

I don't care if other people want to drop off stuff, honestly.  I don't judge.  But I don't in the spirit of the sport and the rules.

It's a calculated risk that I'm willing to take. Like speeding or drifting through a stop sign. My guess is there either won't be a cop around to catch me or if there is he won't care enough to pull me of. But the rule is the rule and if they want the can penalize me for handing off a shirt to family members. It's worth a 2-minuter to not have to throw it away or lug it along for another 15 or 16 miles. That said, if The Bear is officiating, you can rest assured I won't be cheating. That's one curmedgeonly Cajun!

And that's fine for you.

I would feel guilty and unhappy with myself, so I choose to lug it.  But again, I plan carefully so that shouldn't happen in the first place.

I bought a 99 cent fleece hat and used old tube socks as arm warmers on a run just so IF I needed to get rid of them, I could throw them in the trash and not throw $25 arm warmers or a $15 running hat away.  Or tie my fleece around my waste or hang my sunglasses on my collar so I don't have to ditch them - I wouldn't hand them away.  Just me.  I like to know I did my best to follow all the rules at all times, rather than calculate my risks.  Then no one, no how, no where, can say I got an advantage.

At IMAZ, I had Monica's parents hold my Nebraska jersey, which I wore on the bike, until the last lap so I could get my finisher's photo in it. My only other option would be to buy a second Nebraska jersey to the tune of about $100 to use it both on the ride and on the last lap of the run. Yeah, the 2-minute penalty totally would've been worth it. I don't see how me giving my jersey to a family member gave me any sort of advantage over someone who threw their 99-cent shirts in the garbage. Technically, we're both unloading things we're not going to use, it's just a matter of where.

I can tell you don't see the difference.  That's fine.  I do see a difference, and that's fine.

It's up to your interpretation of the rules, I suppose.

2013-02-05 3:29 PM
in reply to: #4609738

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Subject: RE: Abandonment in IM?

nm

just realized how silly this thread is...



Edited by tri808 2013-02-05 3:39 PM
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