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2013-02-15 11:08 PM

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Subject: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

Some background - I've been training for about 4 years in all 3 sports, and have been swimming regularly for about 2 years. My pace is at ~01:50/100 meters. My goal for next season is to shave time on sprint tris (hoping for a first AG podium).

I've been swimming by myself, and lately, have been able to swim 3-4 (sometimes 5) times a week. The reason is that I live very close to the pool (about 2 minutes walk) which makes things very flexible, and whenever I have a free hour I'm off swimmin.

Now my pool membership ends next month, and the dilemma is this: there's another pool which is about 15 minutes away (by car) , which has a masters class (the 'coach', who swims with them, is the no.1 open water swimmer AG in the country). I have a friend swimming there, and I know they have very intense sessions. Because the masters pool is not a walking distance, I believe I will not be able to swim more than 2, maybe 3, times a week.

When I swim by myself, workouts last for about 45-50 minutes, and I take a lot of breaks between sets and generally don't push myself very hard. On the other hand, since I swim frequently, I believe I have a good 'water feel', from the first lap in my warmup I feel like I have a good swimming form and I feel light and relaxed (comparing to the past when I used to swim 1-2 times a week).

So this is the question - where am I better off swimming, high intensity,2-3 times a week, or lower intensity, 3-4 times a week?



2013-02-15 11:31 PM
in reply to: #4624661

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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
2-3 vs 3-4 is one session per week difference.

Given the higher intensity AND having an awesome coach.....  it's pretty well a no-brainer to me.

Go join the class.  Best thing I ever did was get coached.  Dropped from 2:00/100m to 1:39/100m in 7 sessions over 2 months. ( I swam alone other than once a week coaching )
2013-02-15 11:46 PM
in reply to: #4624661

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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

This isn't just high intensity vs lower w/more frequency. You'll also be getting some good instructions. That's a big difference. You should really consider this. After seeing the difference between going on my own and being in a masters, I would. I can work myself into the ground on my own, but the feedback at masters is much better leading to more improvement. I've gotten better fast, and see where that can continue as well.

If you signed up, how long would it be for? And how easily could you switch back to your normal place? Is there a "vacation" option where they'd just charge a few bucks a month in that time? 

2013-02-16 1:03 AM
in reply to: #4624661

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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Do you need to choose either or? How about once a week with the masters program/coach? Then practice on your own? You really need outside observeration to make significant improvement in swimming. OTH, a fast swimmer doesn't necessarily make a great coach. Go check it out and see what you think
2013-02-16 6:44 AM
in reply to: #4624703

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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
AdventureBear - 2013-02-16 2:03 AMDo you need to choose either or? How about once a week with the masters program/coach? Then practice on your own? You really need outside observeration to make significant improvement in swimming. OTH, a fast swimmer doesn't necessarily make a great coach. Go check it out and see what you think
This was exactly my first thought. Do both.
2013-02-16 7:29 AM
in reply to: #4624661

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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Check out if the coach is a good coach. And if he is, then because u don't push yourself , go to the masters. I am a decent swimmer, and swam solo for a while. I started swimming masters and have gotten faster, just by pushing myself to keep up.


2013-02-16 10:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Even without the added benefit of coaching, I would recommend swimming with masters... especially if they're faster than you.  You may think you push yourself appropriately while swimming alone, but I would bet that the majority of us swim harder and get a better workout when we do sets with others.
2013-02-16 11:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
I think it depends on the quality of the masters program. I swam on a masters team for a little over a year, but didn't gain a ton of speed. There was very little coaching - pretty much just sets to swim. I now just swim at a local gym, but I'm pushing myself hard this year, as my goal is getting to Kona. Why not do frequency and intensity - unlike running you can include faster sets in all your swims. And don't be that guy taking a two minute break at the end of each set - that only wastes your own time. When you go for a ride or run do you stop every few minutes for a break? Little breaks (5-10 sec) work well, but nothing over :30 unless you're doing a TT or all out sprints.
2013-02-16 11:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

TriMyBest - 2013-02-16 7:44 AM
AdventureBear - 2013-02-16 2:03 AMDo you need to choose either or? How about once a week with the masters program/coach? Then practice on your own? You really need outside observeration to make significant improvement in swimming. OTH, a fast swimmer doesn't necessarily make a great coach. Go check it out and see what you think
This was exactly my first thought. Do both.

If you read his post, I don't think that was an (easy) option.  Two different pools with different memberships.

To the OP, unless you start pushing yourself in your solo workouts, you are stagnating on the swim leg.  If your goal is to improve, you need to do something different.  I think you should switch pools, at least for awhile.  After some time learning how to swim hard (and hopefully getting some good tips) with others, maybe you will be better off switching back and swimming more frequently (plus harder) on your own.  So, I sort of agree with the above posters, but don't think you (necessarily) need to do both at the same time.

2013-02-16 11:44 AM
in reply to: #4624781

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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
I'm swimming solo because even with one of the best masters programs in town there is only 2 or 3 guys there who can push me in any way shape or form and that is assuming I attend the same practices that they do. Next year I'll be trying to swim with the national level youth squad if I can get that going. My focus will be Masters Worlds for swimming and ITU worlds (AG sprint triathlon). I have only 2-3 days/week to swim right now and most days it's high intensity intervals for 2000-2500 out of 2500-3500 meteres with my bigger days being in the 4000-5000 range. I have one big masters meet I am prepping for in 7 weeks and then its a couple of sprints, a 70.3 distance race and then Ironman Whistler. I have 6-7 weeks between my 70.3 and Whistler so I will probably not race much but will try to swim 2x week trying to maintain what I will be gaining in the next 6 weeks.
2013-02-16 11:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Swim with the squad plus 1-2x on your own and get 4 swims per week. 1:50/100m is weak to hit the podium even if you are a stud bike/run guy. At 1:25 (+/- 5 sec/100) you will be much more competative. You will still lose time but you will be limiting the loss to an amount you can overcome. Right now you are probably losing 5 minutes in the swim alone to the fastest swimmers at a bigger sprint race. I will be under 9:00 OW at my focus race in 2014, I am a solid cyclist and my run will hopefully be in the 18-19 range. You would have to run. Sub 17 5 k to even think of catching me and I'm 35-39. The younger age groups have some blazing fast guys for the 5 k since many of them are still trying to crack he elite ranks or are racing AG and are former JR elite guys with college commitments.


2013-02-16 4:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

simpsonbo - 2013-02-16 9:44 AM I'm swimming solo because even with one of the best masters programs in town there is only 2 or 3 guys there who can push me in any way shape or form and that is assuming I attend the same practices that they do. Next year I'll be trying to swim with the national level youth squad if I can get that going. My focus will be Masters Worlds for swimming and ITU worlds (AG sprint triathlon). I have only 2-3 days/week to swim right now and most days it's high intensity intervals for 2000-2500 out of 2500-3500 meteres with my bigger days being in the 4000-5000 range. I have one big masters meet I am prepping for in 7 weeks and then its a couple of sprints, a 70.3 distance race and then Ironman Whistler. I have 6-7 weeks between my 70.3 and Whistler so I will probably not race much but will try to swim 2x week trying to maintain what I will be gaining in the next 6 weeks.

 

Brag much?   Undecided

2013-02-16 4:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
triosaurus - 2013-02-16 5:02 PM

simpsonbo - 2013-02-16 9:44 AM I'm swimming solo because even with one of the best masters programs in town there is only 2 or 3 guys there who can push me in any way shape or form and that is assuming I attend the same practices that they do. Next year I'll be trying to swim with the national level youth squad if I can get that going. My focus will be Masters Worlds for swimming and ITU worlds (AG sprint triathlon). I have only 2-3 days/week to swim right now and most days it's high intensity intervals for 2000-2500 out of 2500-3500 meteres with my bigger days being in the 4000-5000 range. I have one big masters meet I am prepping for in 7 weeks and then its a couple of sprints, a 70.3 distance race and then Ironman Whistler. I have 6-7 weeks between my 70.3 and Whistler so I will probably not race much but will try to swim 2x week trying to maintain what I will be gaining in the next 6 weeks.

 

Brag much?   Undecided

LOL!  Yeah, I've got to admit I've thought the same thing about some of simpsonbo's posts too, but I suppose it's like Kid Rock says in his song "Cocky" - "It aint braggin' motherf.....r if you back it up."

Dude's fast.

 

 

2013-02-16 5:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Have you been doing the same thing for the past 2 years? (Swimming wise). And have you seen any major change recently? If not I would say change it up and go with masters. Many times we plateau and need a little variety to stimulate an improvement.
2013-02-16 7:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

peteweb55403 - 2013-02-16 6:38 PM Have you been doing the same thing for the past 2 years? (Swimming wise). And have you seen any major change recently? If not I would say change it up and go with masters. Many times we plateau and need a little variety to stimulate an improvement.

Variety doesn't stimulate improvement.  Progressive overload or increases in skill level do.

 

2013-02-16 10:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Although i envy the better swimmers on BT, they like to brag way more than the better cyclists or runners here.


2013-02-17 4:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

mad-dog - 2013-02-17 12:56 AM Although i envy the better swimmers on BT, they like to brag way more than the better cyclists or runners here.

It's all we've got.  We get spanked once we are out on the bike and run...  

2013-02-17 7:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

SO is the 2 gym membership idea out of the question? I have similar problem. Very close gym, crappy pool, not full length. Further gym bigger, more people, lap pool, friends train there, workout sessions etc.

I think if you can swing the financial both is the best training wise. I am personally afraid as you are that if you have drive I wont get as much in. For me the total difference would be $45 a month. Down the cable package a bit, cut back on spending ......

2013-02-18 5:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

Make sure the coach is a great coach and not just a great swimmer.  I'm in a similar situation.  I live about 5 mins (by car) to the local college pool with really bad hours.  The next closest pool without a masters group is an hour away and the closest pool with a masters group is 1.5 hours away.  I wanted to join so bad despite a 3 hour round trip.  I thought maybe once/week.  But I found out that while he is a great coach, he brings in a USA team of kids to practice at the same time and only focuses on the kids.  The adults pay the yearly US Masters fee and a monthly fee that is pretty steep.  If you want him to correct any flaws then you have to hire him privately.  So I'd be out a 3 hour drive, gas, and a lot of money for him to just give me a workout plan.  So I decided just to swim on my own, research videos/books, and find my own workout plans.  Just do the research and make sure it's really going to be better.

jami

2013-02-18 9:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Some good discussion here. I'll second the consensus of many to check out the Masters program and coach and see how it works for you. And while having to work hard to keep up with better swimmers does offer some value as an incentive, just swimming hard with poor technique isn't a good path towards ultimately reaching your potential as a swimmer. Make sure you get sufficient drill and technique work to make sure you're improving in this component.

And just my personal opinion, but I don't see much value in swimming 4X a week, unless you're really concentrating on the swim for a while. 2-3 well-balanced session should do the trick. As an experiment of one, I swim 2x a week, about 75 minutes (3500-4000 yards) per session. Of that yardage, usually about 1500-2000 yards will be intervals or harder tempo swimming.

Good luck!

Ken
2013-02-18 10:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

It's also not just the higher intensity. You could raise your intensity and still swim solo.  I've done plenty of high intensity swims by myself.   It's about having a coach that's watching and correcting your form.  Believe it or not, but you probably have a LOT of minor flaws that you have no idea about, but a coach is going to see instantly. I had been swimming for about 6 years since I started and had never been coached. In my first 2-3 sessions the coach in my masters group pointed out probably 10 or so flaws in my stroke. Nothing tremendously substantial, but they add up like crazy.  In swimming, far more than the other two sports, technique makes such a massive difference.  

Like others have said, this is a no brainer of a decision.  Besides, just because the other pool is an extra 10 minutes away, does that really preclude you from going just as often?  It's not like you're talking about 2 minutes vs 30 minutes away.  



2013-02-18 2:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency

While your sessions may be down, I bet your volume is about the same.   It wasn't until I joined masters that I really understood what swim volume was.

 

2013-02-18 2:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
ziggie204 - 2013-02-18 3:22 PM

While your sessions may be down, I bet your volume is about the same.   It wasn't until I joined masters that I really understood what swim volume was.

 

Excellent point, didn't think of this. Since I started with my masters class,  my frequency hasn't changed but my volume and intensity  has gone through the roof.

2013-02-18 7:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Long swim day... 10 x 400 @ 5:30 average pace 1:13/100m
2013-02-18 8:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming - Intensity vs. frequency
Its all relative. Seriously how am I supposed to find comparable masters swimmers to train with? I lapped the field in the 1500 at Masters Nationals last spring. Just stating my situation and what I am doing to improve my CURRENT swimming. I used to be way faster when I was training full time.
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