WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss (Page 4)

I can send you the link to my brother-in-laws obituary.  When you have some one close to you die after an athletic event, you don't take these things lightly anymore.

I did CDA  last year as my first IM. The part I was MOST anxious about was the swim.Was the swim chaotic and did parts of it suck? YES! But it was 'part' of the experience. I signed up again for this year knowing what I was getting into and looking forward to it. The cannon firing followed by crowd surging forward. I know my family enjoyed watching it as well. 

I did the Boise 70.3 with the wave starts and it just wasn't the same, Although I had plenty of open water.

Two problems I see.

1) In theory everyone will cross the start line in less than 6-7 minutes. Last year we were barely able to get on to the beach for the mass start after the pros had started 25 min before. I don't know how they are going to organize groups of 100 and have them on to the beach  and off in less than 25 minutes. I am sure they have considered this but I would like to hear the solution.

2) At some point won't all the faster swimmers jam into the back of the slower swimmers(which I consider myself to be)?  Avg IM swim time is around 1:20, so 40 minutes per lap. The faster swimmer are 25-30 for the first lap and right on the tail of slowest swimmers who are last in the water(on my guess 25 minutes after the first swimmers go). The fastest swimmers in the mix with the slowest should be fun........Hopefully I am wrong on this and the theory is right.

There's a race here that sends out an athlete every 15 seconds.  

As a beginner, I don't like the mass starts.  Water isn't my comfort zone and being kicked while I'm trying to remain calm doesn't help.  The races I've seen with waves start with the fastest age group and work through to the slowest.  You can ask to be put in a certain wave if you feel you deserve to be further in front or want to cool it at the back.  That eliminates a lot of the faster swimmers having to pass the slower ones.

If we have to move to wave starts, how about wave starts based on proof of time instead of age?  Would that at least help some of the concern over bottlenecking?  You have until a certain deadline to provide a proof of time for either an IM or HIM race.  Since registration is a year out, don't require it until later in the year, but with enough time for WTC registration to be able to organize the waves.  Obviously an HIM is not the same as IM, but at least you can paint a picture of an expected pace.  I'm sure if someone took a long and educated look, a pretty reliable formula could be developed for HIM times.  If you can't provide proof of time, then you will most likely end up in the latter waves.  Instead of starting in the 40-44 wave, I'm in wave 5.

I also think the entire start needs to be completed by 0700.  Having 17hrs to be done before the stroke of midnight is another great part of the IM mystique.  If you start the pros and faster racers early, they're really not going to take advantage of the head start to finish by midnight, but it gives the athletes racing the clock a fair shake.  Keep the cutoff system in place as is.

not to sound callous, but did he die in a mass start swim wave and what was the cause? I'm only asking because this topic is about that specifically so if the extremely unfortunate incident occurred as a result of something else then I'm truly sorry for your loss, but it has no bearing on this thread.

As to the other wave start comments, there will be people that try to get around the issue and start sooner to "get extra time" just as you see those who try to get into earlier waves for marathons, etc. I also would get concerned about multi-loop courses.. you now have the faster swimmers catching and overtaking the slower swimmers, which can have it's own set of issues..

I don’t like the idea. I’ve done IMWI twice. I’m a slow swimmer (1:30) but a MOP finisher (13:15). When I get on the bike, I’m just holding on to the back of the pack. I can see people during the bike and then move into the main pack during the run. If there were a wave start, especially if slow swimmers started last, my race would be totally different. I’d be much more isolated the entire day.

As others have said, part of the fun of IM is being on the same course at the same time, and IM is way too long to be standing around waiting to start.

I did IMFL this past year and thought the mass start was awesome!  (BTW, it was my first mass start).  I wasn't upfront, but did get bashed/pushed/kicked a few times, but that's part of doing an Ironman.  I would be totally against the move to swim waves for IM races.  

The mass start is part of Ironman history - don't change it.

Wave starts would alter the importance of the 12:00 midnight deadline.  It would be unfair to the folks in the final wave since they would have less than 17 hours to complete the race.  I assume they're keeping the midnight deadline, right?

Ironman has built its reputation on the Kona race...and they (along with NBC here in the US) sell that race as the ultimate prize in Ironman distance races.  Why mess with that formula?  

Anybody remember "New" Coke? It sounds like WTC is creating a problem where none exists.  

whoops, double post.

Potentially, if they said any swim deaths were "insignificant," changed nothing and hand one happen, they'd (presumably) open themselves to the lawsuit of the century. 

I'd assumed they were using the "dangerous" start to move to a wave start which would allow more folks to race and generate more revenue. They also open themselves to swimming venues with smaller starting areas and potentially more races. I can also see the move as a push by their insurers, otherwise they lose or struggle to afford their coverage. 

Death, dismemberment and injury are a fact of life every time we leave the house, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't do something to offset the risk. 

I'm in or IMLOU this year. Sure, the mass start would be nice but it's not a deal breaker. After the first half a mile, there's still 140.1 to go. 

This I could live with, but the problem is, that it won't work for every Ironman out there.  Essentially, in the northern Hemisphere it won't work for any race in the Fall or Winter months because of the number of daylight hours.  At IMFL, at 6 am it would be pitch black.  even by 6:30 there would not be enough daylight to make swimming safe.  The bike cut off is essentially at sunset, so they can't extend the race that way.  It would be the same for Kona, IMAZ, IMCOZ and perhaps others?  at 6 am at Wisconsin, I think it would have just been starting to get light out, but I was holed up inside at that time, so I can't fully comment.

What one of the local Half IMs does here is really great.  you self seed, when you go to packet pickup, you estimate your swim time (say 35 minutes would put you into the 32-35 minute "wave" and you get a certain colour swim cap).  At the start of the race, you align yourself with the people with the same coloured swim cap which will be in the right order.  It is still a mass start, but the colour of swim cap helps people seed themselves properly.  I have done this race twice now, and both times, I have ended up swimming with mostly the same colour swim caps throughout the swim portion.  the odd cap from the group in front and the odd cap from the group behind, but people usually have a pretty good idea of what they are capable of.  Even with a mass start of 700 people one year, there was no chaos and it was a very smooth start.

I sort of think this will jump the shark. Most want the mass start here on BT by almost 2 to 1. This has been the discussion on some group rides and when I canvass the athletes, changing the start has gotten zero support, and this includes a lot of weak swimmers.

When the annual question comes up here as to why Louisville doesn't sell out, the first answer is always the swim start (followed by a few referencing the heat).

I have an Ironman literally in my back yard, and even though a time trial start is to my advantage being a strong swimmer, I, like everyone else, am looking for the experience. So I would most likely travel back to Cozumel or someplace that keeps the mass start.

By catering to a very small but vocal minority, I think they will take the shine off of the gem that they have.

Perhaps I missed something, but is there a correlation between the deaths and a mass start?  I am thinking not since several have died in non-mass starts.  Personally, I like the edgy feeling of a mass start and I am very comfortable in open water - that being said I get people being nervous about it.  But with all other skills, you learn by doing - therefore someone earlier stated people having to have to do at least 1/2 IM before entering a IM; hard to believe this is not a requirement already.  Get used to it would and should be mantra being chanted rather than dumbing down the race.  What's next no hills where you can reach 45+mph on the bike? (I have other points to make, don't get too exited yet...)

At IMLP, even with a mass start by the second loop there is still contact and jostling for position in the swim.  Unless you are going to drop the enrollment numbers not much is going to change is my thinking with a wave start.  I am skeptical a cap on enrollment will happen since IM St. George was eliminated when the enrollment dropped to what, 1800?  Experience shows WTC does not have this particular viewpoint.

Lastly, as mentioned, I am comfortable in open water.  I would encourage the community to discuss proper etiquette when swimming.  I have on more than one occasion been grabbed and pulled in open water triathlon swims; jostling, bumping, etc. I get since it is crowded  - and I have taken a few kicks to the face.  I am talking about the folks who are outright grabbing people and trying to use this as an advantage.  Stupid, dangerous are a few choice words - but impolite is being generous.  You can feel the difference between a bump and a grab when someone begins to use you as leverage; when i get this,  they have been given a corresponding shove and or kick.  My point is this negative aspect needs to be discussed along with the high energy (which I appreciate) of a mass start.   (no grabbing in the swim, no drafting on the bike....)

I am very surprised by the amount of athletes jumping the gun and already complaining about the change, before it is even confirmed, and before anyone really knows anything about what is going to be done. I wrote this up on my blog last night and scratches the surface of my thoughts. 

Just remember all sports evolve over time and changes are made. If this is a change to improve safety then you cannot get mad at WTC for trying to make a safer product for YOU the athlete.

Correction: There's been no deaths at IMTX, and will still be a mass start....

I thought it was because it's not wetsuit legal?  Just doing my part to jump the thread...

And I'm very surprised by the number of athletes jumping on the bandwagon without evidence of an increase in safety.

This "Talk to a widow" line is getting old.  Not because we don't sympathize, but because it is not relevant to the facts.  If you want me to talk to the widow from a mass start then you can talk to the one from IMNY - a TT start.   Does that help you at all?

NO ONE would oppose this if it would make a difference.

IMNY was NOT a mass start.  The studies we have seen have seen no increase due to the start type.

We really know nothing here.  We suspect a feeling of panic that results in a similar experience to be the trigger in these cases.  We know that the feeling of panic for most triathletes comes from: Not warming up, cold water in the face, race start jitters, and contact. 

The TT start may reduce contact, but it may also decreases the chance of warming up in a relevant time period as well and increase jitters. 

IMHO Crossing a timing mat on the beach  to start the race, after standing inline for an hour, will cause more of a jump in adrenalin than a deep water start where your heart rate was already up from treading water before the gun.

But isn't that essentially how the other 99% of triathlons start? You wait till your wave goes off, which means standing around for hours before the race without a proper warm up. At least that's how it goes for my races. 70.3s are the worst, I wait at LEAST an hour after transition closes to start my race - every time.

You are?

I thought it's because it's in Kentucky and nobody would voluntarily pay money to go to Kentucky... 

Truthfully though, I know quite a few people who said the start was the worst part about that race. 

Yes, 99% of the other tris start with waves, but only IM makes such a big deal and an event unto itself out of the 12 midnight deadline...and I think that's the difference.  IMHO, it's difficult to change the beginning of the race without impacting the end.  WTC 'sells' the mass start and the 12 midnight finish drama, why change the formula?  I haven't heard a good reason yet.  

^^This