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Build from HIM to IM (Page 2)
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 2013-07-02 3:33 PM in reply to: timf79 |
Not a Coach  11473     Media, PA |  Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IMOriginally posted by timf79 Originally posted by tamason Lets see - "Galveston will make a not too hard race." "50k is a must." "12hr IM is also not something I have my mind set on.".......And your starting of the thread and question was for what purpose? To obtain feedback if the usual 30 -36 weeks IM training plan can be shortened to 26 weeks considering HIM fittness at the beginning of the 26 weeks. I have seen a 30week IM plan in which a HIM was at end of week 22 for training. There is no "usual" 30-36 week IM plan. An IM plan can easily be 10-12 weeks. But yours is going to be that long immediately preceded by a 50k run. Trying to do all those races within that time frame is going to cause your performance to suffer in all of them. Whether that matters to you or not is another question. I would agree that if you really want to go sub-5 for Cowtown, then focus on running this fall & winter. Let the other races go until another time. Or, just decide that you really don't care as much about your result, and just crossing the finish line at easch of those races is your reward/challenge. |
| 2013-07-02 3:40 PM in reply to: BigDLobo |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by BigDLobo I guess all I have to say is what is the rush to cram all those in next year? HIM, IM, and 50k aren't going anywhere. You said the Cowtown is a must because there is a new series of medals, well, do the Cowtown 50k. Focus and prepare for that as your A race and get your sub 5hr 50k. If you want to do the HIM you will have already done one by then and you will be in great running shape, so add in the biking and swimming as low impact workouts to stay in form and go hit Galveston for your 2nd HIM. Then allow yourself to do your Olympic's, Sprint's, HM's, for the balance of the year, all keeping a solid base in order to properly tackle the IM in 2015 as your A race and your full attention. .....again, they aren't going anywhere and you appear to be relatively young. The cowtown is a 3 year series and hence I plan on doing that another 3 year ;-) Which would put me at the same dilemma in 2015 and 2016. |
| 2013-07-02 3:46 PM in reply to: 0 |
| New user 46 | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM The cowtown is a 3 year series and hence I plan on doing that another 3 year ;-) Which would put me at the same dilemma in 2015 and 2016. Gotcha. I am not familiar with the Cowtown series. Shoot with as hot as it was at IMTX this year, try your luck in the Arizona or Florida sweepstakes and if you don't get in IMTX may still be open for registration....provided you decide an IM is a must next year. Edited by BigDLobo 2013-07-02 3:48 PM |
| 2013-07-02 3:48 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by Jason N Ok...so the question becomes...how much do you plan to run in training (and for how long...as in how many weeks) to get your endurance up to the point where you can sustain 9:39 per mile for 50k? Then ask yourself how you plan to swim and bike in prep for a HIM and IM at the same time while accounting for taper and recovery from each event. In a nutshell I plan on the following peek mileages (per week): Run 63 Bike 200 Swim 5.9 Total plan from 11/18/2013 to IM would be 26 weeks totalling miles/ hours (Hours up to 22hrs per week, average 16:14; total 406hrs) Run 1,010 / 150:04 Bike 3,257 / 186:49 Swim 108 / 68:32 Sub-plan just to the 50k (14weeks (199 hours ~ 14:15 avg. per week)): Run 565 / 84 Bike 1,400 / 80 Swim 52 / 35 |
| 2013-07-02 3:56 PM in reply to: timf79 |
| Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Seems like you still have the option of choosing a later season IM in July/August. That would give you a few weeks to recover from the 50k, then another 16ish weeks for IM specific training. It would also allow you to focus back on running in the fall/winter for the following year's 50k. I know that you would rather stay closer to home, but at a certain point is saving a thousand dollars or so really worth it? Given the hours and hours of training you're going to put into it...I'd give myself the best possible chance to succeed. But again...that's just me. |
| 2013-07-02 3:56 PM in reply to: timf79 |
Champion 14571 the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by timf79 Originally posted by Jason N In a nutshell I plan on the following peek mileages (per week): Run 63 Bike 200 Swim 5.9 Total plan from 11/18/2013 to IM would be 26 weeks totalling miles/ hours (Hours up to 22hrs per week, average 16:14; total 406hrs) Run 1,010 / 150:04 Bike 3,257 / 186:49 Swim 108 / 68:32 Sub-plan just to the 50k (14weeks (199 hours ~ 14:15 avg. per week)): Run 565 / 84 Bike 1,400 / 80 Swim 52 / 35 Ok...so the question becomes...how much do you plan to run in training (and for how long...as in how many weeks) to get your endurance up to the point where you can sustain 9:39 per mile for 50k? Then ask yourself how you plan to swim and bike in prep for a HIM and IM at the same time while accounting for taper and recovery from each event. so you are just going to follow an IM plan and in the middle of it race a 50k? your peak mileages won't happen until AFTER the 50k race. |
| 2013-07-02 4:02 PM in reply to: timf79 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM How much do you train now? That would be a recipe for burn-out for many (assuming they actually kept up with the plan). For others, it's fine. Given the little you've shared here, there is no way I would set out to do what you are proposing. Not would I advise anyone to do so. (I would advise against it if they asked). But, if you really want to do it this way, go ahead (it's unlikely to kill you). You never know for sure until you try. |
| 2013-07-02 4:05 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM |
| 2013-07-02 4:23 PM in reply to: rjrankin83 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by rjrankin83 Would you say it's realistic to think that someone going sub 5:30 HIM to go sub 12 IM on similar courses? Sorry to thread jack but sub 12 is my goal also I'd say those odds are good on a similar course. That stated, there's a 1000 things that can happen on race day to sidetrack things. Will it be your first IM? Which HIM and IM are you talking about? |
| 2013-07-02 4:23 PM in reply to: mehaner |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by mehaner so you are just going to follow an IM plan and in the middle of it race a 50k? your peak mileages won't happen until AFTER the 50k race. Nah, it's not really an IM plan. It's just the rough weekly mileage goals that I came up with in a first draft/feasability study. I considering going back to self coaching next season. The run will peak before the 50k (logically) the bike and swim after the 50k. |
| 2013-07-02 4:30 PM in reply to: timf79 |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by timf79 Originally posted by Jason N ETA: Just curious what your half marathon PR was before your first 50k...and what McMillian predicted? My HM best was 1:57 on a very hilly course (not one mile without hills), this comes to a McMillian 50k of 4:58. I think that close to 5hr time would have been not completly impossible. But the 50k was the first for my wife and me. The first time we do a distance we train, start and finish together. Hence I had some IT-Band issues from running at an unnatural pace for me. In the 50k my wife suffered from foot pain (PF?), while my IT band started to cause issues, so we ended up walking quite a bit after mile 24 (or so). Before that we where on track for a 5ish time. The other issue I had was that I hydrated too well the night before and needed a total of 4 rest room breaks (which take forever with the waiting in line). Just taking the rest room breaks out would have saved me 30minutes or more. I am not sure how much speed work one really needs to run a 9:39 min/mile (for a sub 5 50k). The focus would be more on building endurance to sustain that 9:39min/mile the whole time. Which I should be able to accomplish by running mostly in Z2. What happens if you have these issues again? You just threw away your HIM and IM entry fee? More power to you. I'm doing my IM this year and hope to attempt a 50k or 50 miler later next year. Based on my previous HM the mcmillan calculator says I'll run a 3:54 50k. I'll let you know how that goes  |
| 2013-07-02 4:31 PM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by timf79 There is no "usual" 30-36 week IM plan. An IM plan can easily be 10-12 weeks. But yours is going to be that long immediately preceded by a 50k run. Trying to do all those races within that time frame is going to cause your performance to suffer in all of them. Whether that matters to you or not is another question. I would agree that if you really want to go sub-5 for Cowtown, then focus on running this fall & winter. Let the other races go until another time. Or, just decide that you really don't care as much about your result, and just crossing the finish line at easch of those races is your reward/challenge. Originally posted by tamason Lets see - "Galveston will make a not too hard race." "50k is a must." "12hr IM is also not something I have my mind set on.".......And your starting of the thread and question was for what purpose? To obtain feedback if the usual 30 -36 weeks IM training plan can be shortened to 26 weeks considering HIM fittness at the beginning of the 26 weeks. I have seen a 30week IM plan in which a HIM was at end of week 22 for training.
I'll second Johnny's thoughts. A 36 week IM plan is ridiculous. The odds of anyone starting a 36 week plan and finishing it without a total burnout got to be close to zero. I'm doing IM Canada in 8 weeks. I started training yesterday. Granted, I have base endurance up the wazoo and I did a HIM a couple of months ago so it's not like I'm starting from nothing. Just pointing out the ludicrous nature of a plan that encompasses 70% of the year. |
| 2013-07-02 4:42 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by JohnnyKay How much do you train now? That would be a recipe for burn-out for many (assuming they actually kept up with the plan). For others, it's fine. Given the little you've shared here, there is no way I would set out to do what you are proposing. Not would I advise anyone to do so. (I would advise against it if they asked). But, if you really want to do it this way, go ahead (it's unlikely to kill you). You never know for sure until you try. In my 50k training I went from 32hrs per month (Oct 2012) to 56hrs a month (Jan 2012). Then my coach took over and the focused shifted to higher intensity (with the focus of olympics and sprints mid-year) Hence hrs. the dropped to 45, 37, 40. May and June was low due to mid-season break and injury with ~30hrs each. Nevertheless I did enjoy the high volume training more than the high intensity (long and slow versus short and fast). Edited by timf79 2013-07-02 4:44 PM |
| 2013-07-02 4:43 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by GMAN 19030 Originally posted by rjrankin83 Would you say it's realistic to think that someone going sub 5:30 HIM to go sub 12 IM on similar courses? Sorry to thread jack but sub 12 is my goal also I'd say those odds are good on a similar course. That stated, there's a 1000 things that can happen on race day to sidetrack things. Will it be your first IM? Which HIM and IM are you talking about? This will be my first IM, I'm doing IMFL in Nov. I live on the other coast of FL and did a local HIM on the beach last year (the swim was cancelled but that's my strength). I did the bike and run in 5 hours. I was still very new to biking (had my bike since June race in October) and overcooked the bike. My bike and run fitness has gotten much stronger over the year however I missed registration for Augusta so I'm going in a little blind. Last year I was doing OLY's in 2:28ish before the HIM and I just PR'd the same course in 2:12. I know it's hard to relate the 2 and a lot can go wrong over the course of an IM. My immediate goal, this being my first, is just to finish. Secondly I'd like to go sub 12 |
| 2013-07-02 4:48 PM in reply to: timf79 |
Elite 5145 Cleveland | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by timf79 I see that there are many 30+ week traininplans for IMs. In October I will do my 1st HIM, now I am considering to: Sprint in November (beginning of month) 1 week of (after sprint above) do a 50k in February (end fo month) a HIM in April (beginning of month) full IM in May (mid month) This would leave me 14 weeks to get ready for the 50k 20 weeks to get ready for the HIM 26 weeks to get ready for the IM Is that something that sounds realistic or are the timelines a bit tight?
If you build/prep for that 50k really well and have already built tons of bike fitness heading into that 50k, then I'd think you should be fine.
The thing you have to factor in is recovery from the 50k... you're probably going to want to shut down the running for a little bit right after it. BUT - it's not really terribly much more than running a marathon, so roughly one month after the 50k, your run legs should feel normal again. The great thing is that it will have you well prepared for the HIM run, so if you are good on bike fitness when that rolls around and use it as pacing practice for the full.... you should come away from it feeling fairly fresh and ready to have a last few solid weeks of prep for the full IM.
Basically, build your IM bike fitness at the same time you are prepping for the 50k and you will give yourself a MUCH better time of coming off each event into the next. |
| 2013-07-02 6:22 PM in reply to: cgregg |
| Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by cgregg If you build/prep for that 50k really well and have already built tons of bike fitness heading into that 50k, then I'd think you should be fine.
I would agree with this statement. I just have no idea how the OP would accomplish it. Usually building tons of bike fitness and prepping for a 50k really well do not go hand in hand. |
| 2013-07-03 8:53 AM in reply to: cgregg |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by cgregg BUT - it's not really terribly much more than running a marathon, so roughly one month after the 50k, your run legs should feel normal again. Roughly one month after the 50k, the OP is ~6 weeks out from his IM. Running a marathon 10 weeks before an IM is not a particularly good idea for most people. |
| 2013-07-03 9:07 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by Jason N Seems like you still have the option of choosing a later season IM in July/August. That would give you a few weeks to recover from the 50k, then another 16ish weeks for IM specific training. It would also allow you to focus back on running in the fall/winter for the following year's 50k. I know that you would rather stay closer to home, but at a certain point is saving a thousand dollars or so really worth it? Given the hours and hours of training you're going to put into it...I'd give myself the best possible chance to succeed. But again...that's just me. Skip the HIM and save some there, freeing up some more for the travel costs. I'm also seeing that "wanting redemption" as being an issue. It's going to mess up priorities. If it's the 50k, that's fine, but from what I've seen, don't think you won't want to stick it to the HIM or the IM after. And if you don't do as well as you think, that feeling could come back rather strong for those too. If the 3 year cowtown thing is your primary goal, then move everything else away from that. Even if one really does want to just complete any (or all) of these events, they are rather sizeable ones that will have a very noticeable effect on each other. Edited by brigby1 2013-07-03 9:12 AM |
| 2013-07-03 9:07 AM in reply to: timf79 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by timf79 In my 50k training I went from 32hrs per month (Oct 2012) to 56hrs a month (Jan 2012). Then my coach took over and the focused shifted to higher intensity (with the focus of olympics and sprints mid-year) Hence hrs. the dropped to 45, 37, 40. May and June was low due to mid-season break and injury with ~30hrs each. Nevertheless I did enjoy the high volume training more than the high intensity (long and slow versus short and fast). Start increasing your training load (gradually) now. You are looking to hold a higher training load for several months under your current 'plan'. You need to be prepared for that. And IM training is not really 10 weeks or 36 weeks or whatever your 'plan' is, it is ALL your training--including today. IM training is not all about just 'long and slow' either. |
| 2013-07-03 9:41 AM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by JohnnyKay IM training is not all about just 'long and slow' either. Could you elaborate on that? It is my understanding (especially in running) that you can train up to a certain point with long and slow. In running I would see this point around 75miles per week. Once you reach that peak weekly distance and you see no further improvements in speed you should go away from the "long and slow". Point taken that mixing training with other than long and slow will accelerate your speed gains, but as long as you don't max out on weekly mileage you still gain speed while doing long and slow. Hence my train of thought is that a IM training that does not have an overly agressive time goal can be build around a "long and slow" training plan. |
| 2013-07-03 10:41 AM in reply to: timf79 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM IM training includes biking and swimming, as well. You will need a lot of volume if you intend to practice 'long and slow' for those. Even a running plan should be MOSTLY EASY. That does not mean everything should be 'long and slow'. An under 12 finish for you does not appear to be overly aggressive. Combined with your other goals, however, it begins to look moreso. |
| 2013-07-03 11:42 AM in reply to: timf79 |
Member 109 | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM weren't you just recently injured from trying to do too much too soon? your race schedule next year sounds like a recipe for disaster. i think too many people get caught up with "having to do" this or that and don't really think it through... there is plenty of time to accomplish what you want unless you are in your late 50s or 60s. like being one year in the sport and then thinking they should jump straight up to IM distance... unless you have a bet with someone for some serious money, I'd rather take the scenic route and enjoy my training/racing for a few years as I build up the endurance base to tackle longer events, and significantly reduce my risk of injury and burnout. |
| 2013-07-03 12:12 PM in reply to: z2012 |
Master 1517 Grand Prairie | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Yeah some overuse injury in my ankle from too much cycling or switching too much between bikes and shoes. Not too big of a deal though. |
| 2013-07-03 10:07 PM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Expert 1130 Fernandina Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Build from HIM to IM Originally posted by JohnnyKay IM training includes biking and swimming, as well. You will need a lot of volume if you intend to practice 'long and slow' for those. Even a running plan should be MOSTLY EASY. That does not mean everything should be 'long and slow'. An under 12 finish for you does not appear to be overly aggressive. Combined with your other goals, however, it begins to look moreso. I think 12 hours is a little aggressive if 6 hours is the OP's goal HIM time. However I've never done an IM so I'm strictly guessing based on my expectations. OP you speak pretty confidently that 5 hours for your 50k is going to be easy. I understand you had troubles in your last 50k, but will 1.5 hours off last years time really be that easy? What's you PR marathon? HM? |
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