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2013-09-13 8:58 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: When will American's embrace Libertarian views?
Originally posted by tuwood

I was talking about that with a friend the other day too.  If you look at it in the purest form Communism is almost the perfect example of "everyone is equal" type of government.  Everyone does their fair share and everyone gets the same.

However, we came to the conclusion that it's counter to human nature where people want to be better, stronger, and faster than everyone else.  So, when you do have a communist government there is always corruption and people gaming the system to one up everyone else.

Honestly, I am really struggling with this right now. I honestly don't know the answer. I have always been driven. I want more. That may be good or bad, but it has got to a high position in my profession fast. And I have my eye on the next level and working on getting there. So with the filters of my experience... I see that as the "natural state" for all.

Yet I honestly belive, in a social society, that indeed some people just like being sheep. And I do not mean that as an insult. They are just happy to do their part. They go with the herd, stay in the middle, and live their lives. And that does not at all mean anything bad.

Look at any work force... the go getters are not the norm. you have about 10% that are go getters. You have about 10% you would like to fire. Heck, say it's 20%... that leaves 60% in the middle that just come to work, do their job, and go home. they are not problems, and they are not solutions either. But you do need those 60%, or nothing would get done.

So this discussion on governance... I feel the go getters will always find a way to game the system. I do not want the Government to have too much power, because "they" usually abuse it.... but perhaps my view of Utopia... a pure Libertarian society (within reason) is just as unrealistic as a pure "collective" run government (with in reason) many want to shape us into.  

Hummmm.....



2013-09-14 8:27 AM
in reply to: powerman

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Subject: RE: When will American's embrace Libertarian views?
Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by Jackemy1  Hey, I didn't make up my statement on my own. What I said is just fact and not my opinion. Thousands of years or human experience, wisdom, virtue and faith brought the age of Enlightenment. It just so happened that America's founding and founders were heavily influenced the Enlightened philosophies of that time period. The Declaration of Independence is arguably the greatest political document of the Enlightenment age. Our country was the first country born from the Age of Enlightenment. It is what it is. My point is Conservative and Liberty folks ideas about the rights of humankind fall in line with the philosophies of Enlightenment and by historical happenstance the political ideology that sparked the creation of this nation. Statist's thinking fall in line with the philosophies of Thomas More, Plato, and Hobbes.I am not aware of anyone who signed on the Declaration of Independence who was influenced by More, Hobbes, or Plato but there are many examples today of their influence in American political ideology. Heck, the majority of the citizens of this nation agree with the ideology of statism over the political ideology developed in the age of enlightenment. It is just different ways to view our existence. Now the Constitution has nothing to do with God any other divinity. The Constitution is just a simple contract between the government and the citizens. I guess the only thought I have regarding the different perspective between Statist and a Liberty types who confers right in this contract. A Statist would argue the rights are conferred from the State to its citizens. A Liberty type would argue that the individuals confer rights to the government in the form of enumerated powers in exchange.for common good. So you see, you really don't need to believe is God to believe in the US Constitution but understanding that this country was founded in that divine belief helps to understand the roots of this country.

OK, I understand the roots of the country and where our laws came from, but you said, "The Liberty crowd believe rights are God (or whatever etheral thing that floats you boat) given and place their faith in God and country"... and then finished with... "But my bearings are in line with this Democrat; "The right's of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God" - JFK".

So you framed your statements around God to begin with. I'm glad to see I don't have to believe in God, nor do I want to make it sound as if you think I do, but it does not even have to go there. It is very simple to say the People have the power and confer that to the government versus the State has the power and give it to the people and leave it at that... in fact, if it was packaged as such and sold accordingly, I do believe many more people would buy into it.That is what we have, it just seems lost on some.

This argument does sort of have a history of falling into the trap of religion... that I don't have to listen to your stupid socialist government because my rights come straight from the hand of God and he trumps you. I'm good with the People keeping the power simply because it's better than the State having it.Wink

 

As it stands... I have never thought our government to be evil. They never took a thing in their life... The People willingly gave it. I think too much has been given. I would like to reverse that trend.




"It is very simple to say the People have the power and confer that to the government versus the State has the power and give it to the people and leave it at that..."

It is not that simple as it fails to answer the philosophical question - what entitles people to that power? Without entitlement of that power from God then people conferring rights to government or government conferring right to people means the exact same thing. Because government is man.

Thomas Jefferson would not have had an argument to declare independence if was a simple as you state it.

Just for context, the Age of Enlightenment was marked with the rejection of religion to explain God's existence. Religion and God are truly independent. It is the idea that God can be explained through reason, nature, and science and not through religious revelation or supernatural events.






2013-09-14 9:10 AM
in reply to: Jackemy1

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Subject: RE: When will American's embrace Libertarian views?
Originally posted by Jackemy1

It is very simple to say the People have the power and confer that to the government versus the State has the power and give it to the people and leave it at that..." It is not that simple as it fails to answer the philosophical question - what entitles people to that power? Without entitlement of that power from God then people conferring rights to government or government conferring right to people means the exact same thing. Because government is man. Thomas Jefferson would not have had an argument to declare independence if was a simple as you state it. Just for context, the Age of Enlightenment was marked with the rejection of religion to explain God's existence. Religion and God are truly independent. It is the idea that God can be explained through reason, nature, and science and not through religious revelation or supernatural events.

 

What entitles people???... well at the end of the day, right now... we are all there is. We can talk about God all we want, but in the court room, in the Constitution, and on the street, we are it. It's the fact that one man agrees with another man to abide by a contract of how to run the country... and of course the other 350 million men and women in the country.

I don't see how it is the same. God can give the power to the state, and then the state can give to the people if they so choose... no different than theocracies. But the state would have the power. There does not have to be a God involved for the power to rest with the people in a representative republic. Chicken and the egg here... we can get all philosophical about it... but at the end of the day we are people in real life that has a Constitution and a contract among men of how to run the country. 

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