General Discussion Triathlon Talk » bike meltdown - what would you do Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
Show Per page
 
 
of 2
 
 
2013-11-05 3:27 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image


257
1001002525
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by LPJmom

Originally posted by cynner
Originally posted by jeng

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to read the responses, but you think your frame is too small? I'm 5'2 with a 28" inseam and have shorter legs proportionately. I have never been able to buy a bike that is too small. I've always bought the smallest frame size that is available in the bike that I want. What bike do you have now? I usually use a longer stem than what comes with the bike to make up for my shorter leg, longer torso. 

I have to agree with this. My specialized Ruby was a 51 and that was perfectly fine for a road bike for me. As I mentioned, I'm 5'2" ... 29" inseam, so my legs are slightly longer. My bike fit included a shorter stem for my shorter torso. It also included slimmer bars, so my hands weren't so wide (for the drop). And, as I mentioned, I switched out my cranks. Someone else mentioned that different cranks on a road bike doesn't make that much of a difference. I can tell you that I felt the extra power by switching. But again...it's all personal preference and there are a lot of thoughts/opinions.

 

Yes on the variable thoughts/opinions and personal preference. Its nice to think out loud sometimes and bounce ideas around - hear all the feedback, which I appreciate from everyone.

Excuse my lack of bike information. Not sure why I didnt  post it earlier.  Specialized Dolce 44 size frame with Shimano Tiagra, 10-speed, 12-30 cassette and a  FSA Tempo, compact crank.

I can borrow a trainer and get some pictures taken, but I have a technical problem with that: How do you post a message and include a picture or embed a video file?

You realize that not one of those things matters in a fit, right?  Even frame "sizes" can be wildly variable.

 

Yes I'm fully aware that a Trek 50 does not equal a Felt 50 != Specialized 50 != Cervelo 50 !=Guru 50  etc etc etc



2013-11-05 3:27 PM
in reply to: tkd.teacher

User image

Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Oh this all sounds so familiar.

I can tell you what I DID because I could have wrote this same post several years ago.

This may not be you but in my case when I bought my first road bike I thought I would now be able to go out and ride for miles and miles with no problem. I had been riding a hybrid for 7 years and could go 20 miles on that old thing so I figured I already had bike fitness. Well it did not work out that way for me. I built up to 30 miles that first summer, bought my bike in April, but it was not easy. I had tingling hands, an aching sit bone and lower back, fatigue in my legs all the time. I had a terrible time trying to keep up with my friends. I took my bike back the shop for fit adjustments, bought a different saddle, put aero bars on it to help my hands. I paid big bucks for an different fit over an hour away. Sound familiar?

Guess what, I didn't have bike fitness, That is all. Time in the saddle FOR ME did not come in 4 or 5 or 6 months. It took years to build.

Now, like you, I blamed the bike. I never loved that bike. I was on a budget so it was an entry level bike. The gears were not smooth, the chain dropped a lot, it sucked the life out of me going uphill. I bought a tri bike. I love the tri bike which means I ride it more which means I have developed better bike fitness. I no longer struggle to keep up with my friends on group rides.

Just this year I sold that first road bike to a friend thinking I would be satisfied with the tri bike all year but again I was wrong. So this fall I shopped around and purchased a different used road bike and I think I've got something that fits the criteria I was frustrated with in the old road bike. It is older but better components and a very smooth ride.

You know I don't regret any of those decisions. It was a learning process and I just had to figure it out. And some of it I didn't figure out until years later. But one thing I know, if you don't love the bike you won't ride as much and you can't build your bike fitness if your not riding the bike. In may case - it was "worth it" to me to try to do everything I possibly could with the bike I already had but in the end it still didn't work out with that bike.

Good luck!

2013-11-05 3:33 PM
in reply to: LPJmom

User image

Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by LPJmom

Originally posted by cynner
Originally posted by jeng

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to read the responses, but you think your frame is too small? I'm 5'2 with a 28" inseam and have shorter legs proportionately. I have never been able to buy a bike that is too small. I've always bought the smallest frame size that is available in the bike that I want. What bike do you have now? I usually use a longer stem than what comes with the bike to make up for my shorter leg, longer torso. 

I have to agree with this. My specialized Ruby was a 51 and that was perfectly fine for a road bike for me. As I mentioned, I'm 5'2" ... 29" inseam, so my legs are slightly longer. My bike fit included a shorter stem for my shorter torso. It also included slimmer bars, so my hands weren't so wide (for the drop). And, as I mentioned, I switched out my cranks. Someone else mentioned that different cranks on a road bike doesn't make that much of a difference. I can tell you that I felt the extra power by switching. But again...it's all personal preference and there are a lot of thoughts/opinions.

 

Yes on the variable thoughts/opinions and personal preference. Its nice to think out loud sometimes and bounce ideas around - hear all the feedback, which I appreciate from everyone.

Excuse my lack of bike information. Not sure why I didnt  post it earlier.  Specialized Dolce 44 size frame with Shimano Tiagra, 10-speed, 12-30 cassette and a  FSA Tempo, compact crank.

I can borrow a trainer and get some pictures taken, but I have a technical problem with that: How do you post a message and include a picture or embed a video file?

Ohhh, didn't see this post before I replied. Guess what kind of bike my first roadie was that I was never happy with?

2013-11-05 3:35 PM
in reply to: LPJmom

User image

Pro
15532
50005000500050025
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by LPJmom

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by LPJmom

Originally posted by cynner
Originally posted by jeng

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to read the responses, but you think your frame is too small? I'm 5'2 with a 28" inseam and have shorter legs proportionately. I have never been able to buy a bike that is too small. I've always bought the smallest frame size that is available in the bike that I want. What bike do you have now? I usually use a longer stem than what comes with the bike to make up for my shorter leg, longer torso. 

I have to agree with this. My specialized Ruby was a 51 and that was perfectly fine for a road bike for me. As I mentioned, I'm 5'2" ... 29" inseam, so my legs are slightly longer. My bike fit included a shorter stem for my shorter torso. It also included slimmer bars, so my hands weren't so wide (for the drop). And, as I mentioned, I switched out my cranks. Someone else mentioned that different cranks on a road bike doesn't make that much of a difference. I can tell you that I felt the extra power by switching. But again...it's all personal preference and there are a lot of thoughts/opinions.

 

Yes on the variable thoughts/opinions and personal preference. Its nice to think out loud sometimes and bounce ideas around - hear all the feedback, which I appreciate from everyone.

Excuse my lack of bike information. Not sure why I didnt  post it earlier.  Specialized Dolce 44 size frame with Shimano Tiagra, 10-speed, 12-30 cassette and a  FSA Tempo, compact crank.

I can borrow a trainer and get some pictures taken, but I have a technical problem with that: How do you post a message and include a picture or embed a video file?

You realize that not one of those things matters in a fit, right?  Even frame "sizes" can be wildly variable.

 

Yes I'm fully aware that a Trek 50 does not equal a Felt 50 != Specialized 50 != Cervelo 50 !=Guru 50  etc etc etc

No, I was talking about cassette, compact crank, etc.   They make no difference in fit.

2013-11-05 4:33 PM
in reply to: trigal38

User image

Elite
4048
2000200025
Gilbert, Az.
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do
Originally posted by trigal38

Ohhh, didn't see this post before I replied. Guess what kind of bike my first roadie was that I was never happy with?




I believe a lot of your problems were from poor fit and bottom end components, honestly. Even with the extra fit session. Tingling hands are a nerve problem with too much weight on the hands without shifting position, seats are notorious for needing to find the one that fits your particular sit bones, etc.

The dropped chain/noisy and all if that is the Tiagra. Tiagra/Sora, all of that is basically (IMHO) barely functional crap that they hang on a frame to meet a low price point. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than Rival or 105. There's just too much downside for a race bike to be relying on bottom end components.

Here's a nice example: Just from different pulleys and chain lube, you can gain 10 watts of power.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/02/bikes-and-tech/six-watts-fro...

There are people that crank on the pedals for months without seeing a gain like that. Now, that doesn't mean I think everyone should immediately run out and buy P5's with Zipp 808/disc combos, but for the difference between a tiagra/sora and a 105, it's worth it.

John
2013-11-05 4:58 PM
in reply to: tkd.teacher

User image

Master
1366
10001001001002525
PNW
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do
Originally posted by tkd.teacher

Originally posted by trigal38

Ohhh, didn't see this post before I replied. Guess what kind of bike my first roadie was that I was never happy with?




I believe a lot of your problems were from poor fit and bottom end components, honestly. Even with the extra fit session. Tingling hands are a nerve problem with too much weight on the hands without shifting position, seats are notorious for needing to find the one that fits your particular sit bones, etc.

The dropped chain/noisy and all if that is the Tiagra. Tiagra/Sora, all of that is basically (IMHO) barely functional crap that they hang on a frame to meet a low price point. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than Rival or 105. There's just too much downside for a race bike to be relying on bottom end components.

Here's a nice example: Just from different pulleys and chain lube, you can gain 10 watts of power.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/02/bikes-and-tech/six-watts-fro...

There are people that crank on the pedals for months without seeing a gain like that. Now, that doesn't mean I think everyone should immediately run out and buy P5's with Zipp 808/disc combos, but for the difference between a tiagra/sora and a 105, it's worth it.

John


I agree. Good components make a HUGE difference in bike satisfaction and bike satisfaction makes a huge difference in ride time. My Dolce was a higher level (all 105) and I still had issues with the way it operated. It is definitely part of the reason I was ready to jump ship when I had the chance. That said, fit can be a much bigger deterrent to ride time, particularly for small women.

If a new bike doesn't break the bank and can solve both problems, then great. But really, it sounds like your bike is likely pretty close on size and could be dialed in by the right fitter.

If the idea of having a well-fit, comfortable bike doesn't excite you to want to ride more, then the problem likely isn't the fit...it's something else about your bike that is holding you back.


2013-11-05 6:52 PM
in reply to: GLC1968

User image

Regular
120
100
NJ
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do
Most of the previous responses have already offered some great advice, so all I can add is anecdotal.

My carbon tri bike fell over the day before an Ironman and the seat stay cracked all the way through. I was forced to buy a new frame in the expo. The frame was built with my old bike's components and "eyeball adjusted" by the assembler. It was OK for the race, but I was not nearly as comfortable on the new frame as I was the old one. The new frame was a supposedly higher end piece.

A month after the Ironman, I took the new bike to a highly recommended fitter. I spent 3hrs there. In that 3 hours they found about 20 watts of power by simply adjusting things a centimeter or two. I was amazed. It was costly; the fitter is in New York City, but well worth the price for me.

There have been a few "how's my fit" threads lately with pictures. Take a look at those and see if your position closely resembles the pictures. The ones I have seen have been commented upon as needing few adjustments. Those pictures should give you an idea of how close or far off your fit may be.
2013-11-05 7:18 PM
in reply to: tkd.teacher

User image

Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by tkd.teacher
Originally posted by trigal38

Ohhh, didn't see this post before I replied. Guess what kind of bike my first roadie was that I was never happy with?

I believe a lot of your problems were from poor fit and bottom end components, honestly. Even with the extra fit session. Tingling hands are a nerve problem with too much weight on the hands without shifting position, seats are notorious for needing to find the one that fits your particular sit bones, etc. The dropped chain/noisy and all if that is the Tiagra. Tiagra/Sora, all of that is basically (IMHO) barely functional crap that they hang on a frame to meet a low price point. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than Rival or 105. There's just too much downside for a race bike to be relying on bottom end components. Here's a nice example: Just from different pulleys and chain lube, you can gain 10 watts of power. http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/02/bikes-and-tech/six-watts-fro... There are people that crank on the pedals for months without seeing a gain like that. Now, that doesn't mean I think everyone should immediately run out and buy P5's with Zipp 808/disc combos, but for the difference between a tiagra/sora and a 105, it's worth it. John

Oh I totally agree. Just like the OP I never felt like the fit was right on that bike. I don't know what it was but I really tried. I posted pics here more than once, went back to the original shop multiple times, paid for the expensive fit and went back there for follow ups. The problems I described in my first few months did not last for the duration of me owning that bike, most of them were taken care of with time in the saddle. But I was not expecting all of that for a break in period and I was not expecting the break in period to take so long!

I actually ended up loving that saddle strangely enough. Way back then I bought a new saddle, road 10 miles in it then put the original saddle back on. In fact I wound up liking it so much that I actually moved it to my tri bike and then bought the same one to replace the saddle on my recently purchased used road bike. The components, yes, I wish I would have known more about that back when I originally purchased but there was a lot of sticker shock for me at that time and I really did not know what I was doing AT ALL.  And my first race was in 2 weeks but you didn't hear me say that right?

My recently purchased used road bike has campy components and a steel frame. The bike is 10 years old but my ride comfort has improved dramatically. It is fun to ride.

2013-11-05 8:36 PM
in reply to: tkd.teacher

User image

Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do
Originally posted by tkd.teacher


The dropped chain/noisy and all if that is the Tiagra. Tiagra/Sora, all of that is basically (IMHO) barely functional crap that they hang on a frame to meet a low price point. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than Rival or 105. There's just too much downside for a race bike to be relying on bottom end components.



Has anyone tried the new Tiagra that's now 10 speed? I think it was just released in 2012 and from my guess it's probably supposed to be similar to the older 105-5600 (that's the version of 105 that first went to 10 speed in 2007).

I would agree that 9 speed Tiagra is probably less than ideal for racing. But just wondering if the cliche saying of "105 as a minimum" is going to change as Shimano trickles down their technology a bit more.

You can see a more detailed progression of the advancement of each Shimano group here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimano

It seems pretty predictable how the upgrade starts from DA and almost every year the next line down gets a face lift. How much of that is trickle down is the question. Is Tiagra 4600 = 105-5600? Maybe...maybe not.
2013-11-05 9:32 PM
in reply to: Jason N

User image

Pro
4482
20002000100100100100252525
NJ
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by tkd.teacher The dropped chain/noisy and all if that is the Tiagra. Tiagra/Sora, all of that is basically (IMHO) barely functional crap that they hang on a frame to meet a low price point. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than Rival or 105. There's just too much downside for a race bike to be relying on bottom end components.
Has anyone tried the new Tiagra that's now 10 speed? I think it was just released in 2012 and from my guess it's probably supposed to be similar to the older 105-5600 (that's the version of 105 that first went to 10 speed in 2007). I would agree that 9 speed Tiagra is probably less than ideal for racing. But just wondering if the cliche saying of "105 as a minimum" is going to change as Shimano trickles down their technology a bit more. You can see a more detailed progression of the advancement of each Shimano group here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShimanoIt seems pretty predictable how the upgrade starts from DA and almost every year the next line down gets a face lift. How much of that is trickle down is the question. Is Tiagra 4600 = 105-5600? Maybe...maybe not.

Jason, I've used the 2012 Tiagra 12-30. I had it on a spare wheel that I use on the trainer and swapped out cassettes for a hilly century ride a few months ago (you were right that I would be happy to have that extra gear).  I have a 2006 road bike that came with 105 12-27.   I wouldn't call it an even trade in terms of smooth shifting. It was a bit noisier but I never dropped a chain and it was very rideable.  This was a recreational century not a race but I wouldn't have an issue riding with it year round if that was what my budget allowed. But then most of my races times look a bit recreational.   

2013-11-05 11:27 PM
in reply to: mike761

User image

Elite
3090
20001000252525
Spokane, WA
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by LPJmom

 

500-600 miles is just the break in period for the bike, over a 5 month period is only 100 miles a month. I put 500 to 1000 miles before trying to make changes to my fit. You have not really said what is uncomfortable. Road bikes are different than hybrids and comfort bikes you are leaning forward and it takes core strength to keep you stable. Sit ups by the way are not a good core exercise. Is it painful or just uncomfortable?

x2. This is what I was thinking as well. It doesn't seem like you've ridden the bike enough to know for sure that the fit isn't right. My concern would be that you'd pour money into a different fit or a different bike and have similar problems.

Good luck and feel free to keep us updated.



2013-11-06 8:17 AM
in reply to: Jason N

User image


257
1001002525
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by tkd.teacher The dropped chain/noisy and all if that is the Tiagra. Tiagra/Sora, all of that is basically (IMHO) barely functional crap that they hang on a frame to meet a low price point. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than Rival or 105. There's just too much downside for a race bike to be relying on bottom end components.
Has anyone tried the new Tiagra that's now 10 speed? I think it was just released in 2012 and from my guess it's probably supposed to be similar to the older 105-5600 (that's the version of 105 that first went to 10 speed in 2007). I would agree that 9 speed Tiagra is probably less than ideal for racing. But just wondering if the cliche saying of "105 as a minimum" is going to change as Shimano trickles down their technology a bit more. You can see a more detailed progression of the advancement of each Shimano group here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShimanoIt seems pretty predictable how the upgrade starts from DA and almost every year the next line down gets a face lift. How much of that is trickle down is the question. Is Tiagra 4600 = 105-5600? Maybe...maybe not.

 

In 2013 they switched the Tiagra shifters from the button style on the hoods to shifter levers as is the 105 style. I don't know if that also means they improved the Tiagra as a whole to make in more inline with the 105 but it does give evidence to Shimano trickling down technology to make improvements on lower end systems.

2013-11-06 8:27 AM
in reply to: zed707

User image


257
1001002525
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do

Originally posted by zed707

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by LPJmom

 

500-600 miles is just the break in period for the bike, over a 5 month period is only 100 miles a month. I put 500 to 1000 miles before trying to make changes to my fit. You have not really said what is uncomfortable. Road bikes are different than hybrids and comfort bikes you are leaning forward and it takes core strength to keep you stable. Sit ups by the way are not a good core exercise. Is it painful or just uncomfortable?

x2. This is what I was thinking as well. It doesn't seem like you've ridden the bike enough to know for sure that the fit isn't right. My concern would be that you'd pour money into a different fit or a different bike and have similar problems.

Good luck and feel free to keep us updated.

 

I'm happy to hear people echo what the fitter said about doing more core work and it wasn't about telling me BS to cover fit mistakes. As a newbie I had no idea it -really- takes over a year to acclimate to riding.

 

2013-11-06 10:10 AM
in reply to: LPJmom

User image

Member
1748
100050010010025
Exton, PA
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do
Originally posted by LPJmom

Originally posted by Jason N
Originally posted by tkd.teacher The dropped chain/noisy and all if that is the Tiagra. Tiagra/Sora, all of that is basically (IMHO) barely functional crap that they hang on a frame to meet a low price point. Personally, I wouldn't go lower than Rival or 105. There's just too much downside for a race bike to be relying on bottom end components.
Has anyone tried the new Tiagra that's now 10 speed? I think it was just released in 2012 and from my guess it's probably supposed to be similar to the older 105-5600 (that's the version of 105 that first went to 10 speed in 2007). I would agree that 9 speed Tiagra is probably less than ideal for racing. But just wondering if the cliche saying of "105 as a minimum" is going to change as Shimano trickles down their technology a bit more. You can see a more detailed progression of the advancement of each Shimano group here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShimanoIt seems pretty predictable how the upgrade starts from DA and almost every year the next line down gets a face lift. How much of that is trickle down is the question. Is Tiagra 4600 = 105-5600? Maybe...maybe not.

 

In 2013 they switched the Tiagra shifters from the button style on the hoods to shifter levers as is the 105 style. I don't know if that also means they improved the Tiagra as a whole to make in more inline with the 105 but it does give evidence to Shimano trickling down technology to make improvements on lower end systems.




I actually have tiagra on my road bike (2005) and the and all the shifting is in the brake lever. They switched at some point to a thumb shifter and now they have switched back again. At this point I would never go lower than a 105 again however the tiagra that is sold today is probably as good as the 105's of about 5 or 6 years ago. There is nothing wrong with starting with tiagra level components, just now that when you get about 4000 miles on them they maybe done. With that said my rear derailer on that bike is a 105 but the front is still tiagra. Because of the front I still drop a chain occasionally but I don't race that bike so it's not a big deal. My tri bike is ultegra and super smooth in comparison.

Remember these are just components and can be changed out any time.
2013-11-06 10:40 AM
in reply to: LPJmom

User image

Champion
9407
500020002000100100100100
Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: bike meltdown - what would you do
Originally posted by LPJmom

In 2013 they switched the Tiagra shifters from the button style on the hoods to shifter levers as is the 105 style. I don't know if that also means they improved the Tiagra as a whole to make in more inline with the 105 but it does give evidence to Shimano trickling down technology to make improvements on lower end systems.



I'm almost positive that Tiagra has never had a button for shifting; that was Sora which now has gotten rid of the button as well.

As to the groupsets, my first real road bike was a 2001 Trek 2000 and it had a Tiagra 9-speed groupset; it was slightly more finicky than my 105 and higher level bikes but as long as it had new cables and trimmed it when required, the shifting performance was never an issue. After I upgraded my road bike, this bike served two years as a commuter with lots of rain, snow and salt and although everything showed lots of wear, it still worked very well. I never hesitated to race this bike and it served me well through several crits and three draft legal triathlons; my lack of performance in these events was never tied to the quality of the groupset. I bought the bike used with about 5000km on it and I put at least 10,000km on that bike so, IME, the durability issues of Tiagra are highly overstated.

Shane

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » bike meltdown - what would you do Rss Feed  
Show Per page
 
 
of 2
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Done and done

Started by skinnyterror
Views: 1907 Posts: 13

2013-07-11 4:55 PM TTom

Anyone doing/done the Santa Rosa Island Tri or Destin Crab Trap Tri

Started by pilotzs
Views: 1410 Posts: 5

2013-05-28 5:00 PM tacetman

coming back from a short meltdown

Started by JoshKaptur
Views: 1008 Posts: 11

2007-12-20 12:54 PM writers2

Build done! Bike Porn 8)

Started by jmcelroy
Views: 1338 Posts: 23

2006-09-17 8:36 PM jmcelroy

MIdwest Meltdown 8/1/04

Started by dgerdts
Views: 412 Posts: 1

2004-07-27 11:58 PM dgerdts
RELATED ARTICLES
date : August 11, 2011
author : FitWerx
comments : 1
Dean from Fitwerx answers a BT member question about what kind of bike should be the "next bike."
 
date : June 29, 2011
author : alicefoeller
comments : 4
Second in a series of three articles about the basics, the niceties and the luxuries
date : April 28, 2011
author : fivecents
comments : 5
What my first sprint distance triathlon taught me about myself.
 
date : December 27, 2008
author : FitWerx
comments : 9
Are you a beginner triathlete? This video will compare triathlon bikes and road bikes to help you figure out what is best for you as you begin your triathlon training.
date : December 24, 2008
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
Discussions on indoor cycling drills such as one legged drills and power intervals. Also we discuss how many half Ironman races should be done before your first full Ironman.
 
date : October 7, 2008
author : Coach AJ
comments : 0
I'm going to let you in on how to get faster by doing nothing. Well, not exactly nothing, but you won't have to raise your heart rate, put out 300 watts, or really even break a sweat.
date : August 5, 2008
author : mrakes1
comments : 0
Are you traveling to a race and need to ship your bike? This video will demonstrate how to disassemble your bike to be able to pack it properly in a bike case for shipping.
 
date : August 17, 2007
author : scoli121
comments : 6
I quickly browsed an article in Men's Health that talked about doing a triathlon, and how it wasn't really that hard. With a "tsk!" I quickly turned the page while thinking, "Yeah, right!"