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2014-07-11 9:19 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

My guess is that Cleveland is just posturing for now.  You'll never know if Minnesota will bite on a deal for Love that doesn't include Wiggins unless you try first....right?  

 



2014-07-12 9:25 AM
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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by Jason N

My guess is that Cleveland is just posturing for now.  You'll never know if Minnesota will bite on a deal for Love that doesn't include Wiggins unless you try first....right?  

 




I just can't see anything Cleveland can offer that Boston (or any other Love suitor) could offer.
Especially considering the fact Cleveland's draft picks for the foreseeable future will be in the late 20's now they're guaranteed to win at least 55 games a year.
I'm really intrigued by Wiggins. He may not be ready to provide consistent scoring, but they say he's a lock-down defender.
Perhaps they could deal Anthony Bennett, Dion Waiters, cash, and multiple picks for Love.
I just don't know if all that's close to being worth Kevin Love.

edit: I just read an article that pointed something out I had forgotten. Cleveland gets Miami's 2015 1st Round pick. There's a little more ammo there to deal...so I guess Cleveland getting Love isn't impossible.

Edited by ChineseDemocracy 2014-07-12 9:48 AM
2014-07-13 6:14 PM
in reply to: #5017028

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
The funny thing about all of this is the Spurs quietly and unassumingly just kept their championship team intact.

2014-07-13 9:34 PM
in reply to: Hugh in TX

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by Hugh in TX

The funny thing about all of this is the Spurs quietly and unassumingly just kept their championship team intact.


That's true...but Mr. Duncan will be 38...and Mr. Ginobili will be 37 in '14-'15.
LeBron's in his prime and (barring injuries) will have a better supporting cast in Cleveland than he did in Miami this past season.

My money (and Vegas') is on Cleveland. The Cavs are 4 to 1 to win it all. OKC and San Antonio are 6 to 1. Da Bulls are 8 to 1. Clippers 10 to 1.

While I respect Kevin Durant and enjoy watching his game...LeBron's clearly the best player in the league. Cleveland will be extremely fun to watch next season.

2014-07-14 10:46 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by Jason N

My guess is that Cleveland is just posturing for now.  You'll never know if Minnesota will bite on a deal for Love that doesn't include Wiggins unless you try first....right?  

 




I just can't see anything Cleveland can offer that Boston (or any other Love suitor) could offer.
Especially considering the fact Cleveland's draft picks for the foreseeable future will be in the late 20's now they're guaranteed to win at least 55 games a year.
I'm really intrigued by Wiggins. He may not be ready to provide consistent scoring, but they say he's a lock-down defender.
Perhaps they could deal Anthony Bennett, Dion Waiters, cash, and multiple picks for Love.
I just don't know if all that's close to being worth Kevin Love.

edit: I just read an article that pointed something out I had forgotten. Cleveland gets Miami's 2015 1st Round pick. There's a little more ammo there to deal...so I guess Cleveland getting Love isn't impossible.


Cleveland has 3 1st's next year, unless Miami falls into the top 10 of the draft (not likely with Bosh/Wade/Deng now).
2014-07-14 11:24 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
If I was Cleveland though, I'd play hardball with Minnesota. Don't offer Wiggins. Love will be a FA next year. Whomever they trade him to has no guarantee he will sign an extension. Hell, if he really wants to play with Lebron, he could just wait until next season and sign on in Cleveland leaving them with Wiggins, Bennett, and 3 1st's still to trade or keep. That would be quite the formidable team. They would be very young (something that hurt Miami obviously) and have a bunch of guys on long term deals to fit under the cap still.


2014-07-14 11:32 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

Originally posted by JoshR If I was Cleveland though, I'd play hardball with Minnesota. Don't offer Wiggins. Love will be a FA next year. Whomever they trade him to has no guarantee he will sign an extension. Hell, if he really wants to play with Lebron, he could just wait until next season and sign on in Cleveland leaving them with Wiggins, Bennett, and 3 1st's still to trade or keep. That would be quite the formidable team. They would be very young (something that hurt Miami obviously) and have a bunch of guys on long term deals to fit under the cap still.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that this is what we'll do.

LeBron's letter basically said to not expect miracles the first year or two.  This is a process and it will take time.

 

So, if we don't get him this year, we'll be in position to snag him next year, and all of our guys will have a year of experience under their belt.

It's a good time to be from Cleveland (did I really just write that?).

2014-07-14 2:53 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

Originally posted by JoshR If I was Cleveland though, I'd play hardball with Minnesota. Don't offer Wiggins. Love will be a FA next year. Whomever they trade him to has no guarantee he will sign an extension. Hell, if he really wants to play with Lebron, he could just wait until next season and sign on in Cleveland leaving them with Wiggins, Bennett, and 3 1st's still to trade or keep. That would be quite the formidable team. They would be very young (something that hurt Miami obviously) and have a bunch of guys on long term deals to fit under the cap still.

Cleveland won't have enough salary cap space to sign Love as a free agent.  They already gave Irving a 5 year $90 million extension.  Combine that with the $22 million that Lebron will make in 2015-16, and there's no room for Love.

The thing Cleveland has going for them is that Love publicly stated that he is willing to sign a long term extension with Cleveland if he's traded there.  He has not given the same guarantee to any other team AFAIK.  So while other teams may have the capacity to offer Minnesota a better deal, they might not actually make that offer if they know they are just renting Love for one year, and he'll go elsewhere in free agency after that.

I know Wiggins has been touted to have tons of potential, but if you're Cleveland, I think if push comes to shove...you have to give him up for Love.  I agree with playing hardball now, but if Minnesota balks, Cleveland has to give in.  This is not about protecting the 10 year future of Cleveland by keeping a promising 19 year old.  It's about winning now.  Cleveland is a city that hasn't won a championship in 50 years.  And Lebron is only signing a 2 year deal...there is no guarantee he'll be there till he retires.  But if you can lock up Irving, Love, and James for the next 5 years...who cares if you end up sucking in 2021 if you end up with a couple of championships and 5 solid years of winning teams?  Maybe Wiggins is the real deal and ready to be a solid championship contributor right now...but compared to Love???

2014-07-14 3:13 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by JoshR If I was Cleveland though, I'd play hardball with Minnesota. Don't offer Wiggins. Love will be a FA next year. Whomever they trade him to has no guarantee he will sign an extension. Hell, if he really wants to play with Lebron, he could just wait until next season and sign on in Cleveland leaving them with Wiggins, Bennett, and 3 1st's still to trade or keep. That would be quite the formidable team. They would be very young (something that hurt Miami obviously) and have a bunch of guys on long term deals to fit under the cap still.

Cleveland won't have enough salary cap space to sign Love as a free agent.  They already gave Irving a 5 year $90 million extension.  Combine that with the $22 million that Lebron will make in 2015-16, and there's no room for Love.

The thing Cleveland has going for them is that Love publicly stated that he is willing to sign a long term extension with Cleveland if he's traded there.  He has not given the same guarantee to any other team AFAIK.  So while other teams may have the capacity to offer Minnesota a better deal, they might not actually make that offer if they know they are just renting Love for one year, and he'll go elsewhere in free agency after that.

I know Wiggins has been touted to have tons of potential, but if you're Cleveland, I think if push comes to shove...you have to give him up for Love.  I agree with playing hardball now, but if Minnesota balks, Cleveland has to give in.  This is not about protecting the 10 year future of Cleveland by keeping a promising 19 year old.  It's about winning now.  Cleveland is a city that hasn't won a championship in 50 years.  And Lebron is only signing a 2 year deal...there is no guarantee he'll be there till he retires.  But if you can lock up Irving, Love, and James for the next 5 years...who cares if you end up sucking in 2021 if you end up with a couple of championships and 5 solid years of winning teams?  Maybe Wiggins is the real deal and ready to be a solid championship contributor right now...but compared to Love???




I'm not as familiar with NBA salary cap as I am the NFL's, but why would they be able to trade for him and afford his salary (while also giving him the massive extension) but not as a FA?
2014-07-16 7:31 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by Jason N

. . . And Lebron is only signing a 2 year deal...there is no guarantee he'll be there till he retires.  But if you can lock up Irving, Love, and James for the next 5 years...who cares if you end up sucking in 2021 if you end up with a couple of championships and 5 solid years of winning teams?  Maybe Wiggins is the real deal and ready to be a solid championship contributor right now...but compared to Love???




The two year deal is all about the salary cap. We are not going through all of this again in two year, LJ will be a Cavalier for the long haul much to the worldwide leaders chagrin. The NBA TV contract is up after the 15 - 16 season, it is being assumed that the new contract is going to be quite a bit bigger than the current one. The max contract and salary cap is tied to the TV contracts. Remember LJ has been a trend setter on the contract front and is way ahead of the curve with his contract negotiations. He will sign a max deal with the Cavaliers under the terms of the new TV contract and will be making much more than Melo and Bosh after 3 years. LJ is not a businessman, LJ is a BUSINESS, man!

With or without Love the Cavaliers are still a contender in the East this year. How many games would the Heat have won last year without LJ? Would they have been that much better than the Cavs? He instantly would have made any team in the East a contender to make it to the Finals.

It is now 5 days later and I am still on cloud 9. Maybe things are starting to turn around for Cleveland sports.
2014-07-16 10:43 AM
in reply to: Its Only Money

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

Originally posted by Its Only Money
Originally posted by Jason N

. . . And Lebron is only signing a 2 year deal...there is no guarantee he'll be there till he retires.  But if you can lock up Irving, Love, and James for the next 5 years...who cares if you end up sucking in 2021 if you end up with a couple of championships and 5 solid years of winning teams?  Maybe Wiggins is the real deal and ready to be a solid championship contributor right now...but compared to Love???

The two year deal is all about the salary cap. We are not going through all of this again in two year, LJ will be a Cavalier for the long haul much to the worldwide leaders chagrin. The NBA TV contract is up after the 15 - 16 season, it is being assumed that the new contract is going to be quite a bit bigger than the current one. The max contract and salary cap is tied to the TV contracts. Remember LJ has been a trend setter on the contract front and is way ahead of the curve with his contract negotiations. He will sign a max deal with the Cavaliers under the terms of the new TV contract and will be making much more than Melo and Bosh after 3 years. LJ is not a businessman, LJ is a BUSINESS, man! With or without Love the Cavaliers are still a contender in the East this year. How many games would the Heat have won last year without LJ? Would they have been that much better than the Cavs? He instantly would have made any team in the East a contender to make it to the Finals. It is now 5 days later and I am still on cloud 9. Maybe things are starting to turn around for Cleveland sports.

 

Also, isn't there some goofy rule where if we resign a Max contract player (LeBron next year, or in two years), it somehow frees up a Max contract, which could be used to sign Love as a Free Agent at that time... or something like that? 

 

In any case... yes, LeBron is here to finish his career. Make no mistakes about that.  Also, I'm pretty sure that we can swing a deal for Love, and it won't involve Wiggins.

 

In fact, our best move is to sit tight until next year and sign Love as a free agent.  We just added Mike Miller, we keep Kyrie, Tristan, Wiggins, Bennett, etc.... add Love, and we still have three 1st round picks in the 2015 draft.



2014-07-16 9:30 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by JoshR If I was Cleveland though, I'd play hardball with Minnesota. Don't offer Wiggins. Love will be a FA next year. Whomever they trade him to has no guarantee he will sign an extension. Hell, if he really wants to play with Lebron, he could just wait until next season and sign on in Cleveland leaving them with Wiggins, Bennett, and 3 1st's still to trade or keep. That would be quite the formidable team. They would be very young (something that hurt Miami obviously) and have a bunch of guys on long term deals to fit under the cap still.

Cleveland won't have enough salary cap space to sign Love as a free agent.  They already gave Irving a 5 year $90 million extension.  Combine that with the $22 million that Lebron will make in 2015-16, and there's no room for Love.

The thing Cleveland has going for them is that Love publicly stated that he is willing to sign a long term extension with Cleveland if he's traded there.  He has not given the same guarantee to any other team AFAIK.  So while other teams may have the capacity to offer Minnesota a better deal, they might not actually make that offer if they know they are just renting Love for one year, and he'll go elsewhere in free agency after that.

I know Wiggins has been touted to have tons of potential, but if you're Cleveland, I think if push comes to shove...you have to give him up for Love.  I agree with playing hardball now, but if Minnesota balks, Cleveland has to give in.  This is not about protecting the 10 year future of Cleveland by keeping a promising 19 year old.  It's about winning now.  Cleveland is a city that hasn't won a championship in 50 years.  And Lebron is only signing a 2 year deal...there is no guarantee he'll be there till he retires.  But if you can lock up Irving, Love, and James for the next 5 years...who cares if you end up sucking in 2021 if you end up with a couple of championships and 5 solid years of winning teams?  Maybe Wiggins is the real deal and ready to be a solid championship contributor right now...but compared to Love???

I'm not as familiar with NBA salary cap as I am the NFL's, but why would they be able to trade for him and afford his salary (while also giving him the massive extension) but not as a FA?

In the NBA, there is not a hard cap.  One of the ways you can go over the salary cap is to resign a player that is already on your team (an extension), resign a free agent who was previously on your team, or sign the rookies you drafted (there are other ways like the mid level exception, etc).  So once Cleveland signs Wiggins, the other rookies, and whoever they fill out thier roster with (Mike Miller, etc), they will almost certainly be over the cap due to the big chunk that LeBron and Irving take up.  Once you're over the cap, you cannot sign any free agents that were not on your team...like Kevin Love.  If Cleveland made a trade for Love, then he would be a Cav...and when his contract is up after 2015, Cleveland can resign him for the max even though it puts them WAY OVER the cap.  However, they would be subject to luxury tax penalties.

I wasn't aware of the TV contract deal coming up...but that makes sense as to why LeBron did not sign a long term deal now.  Because of the financial security his endorsements offer, he can afford to do this unlike other guys like Melo and Bosh who should take their money while the iron is hot.

Chris also brought up a good point about LeBron's opt out option after 2015.  If he opts out, it might free up enough salary cap space to sign Love...then once Love is signed, LeBron can resign for another 1 year deal thus putting Cleveland over the cap again because it's allowed.  If LeBron signed a 2 year deal without an opt out option, there is no way they can sign another big decent free agent next year.

2014-07-17 6:15 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by JoshR
Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by JoshR If I was Cleveland though, I'd play hardball with Minnesota. Don't offer Wiggins. Love will be a FA next year. Whomever they trade him to has no guarantee he will sign an extension. Hell, if he really wants to play with Lebron, he could just wait until next season and sign on in Cleveland leaving them with Wiggins, Bennett, and 3 1st's still to trade or keep. That would be quite the formidable team. They would be very young (something that hurt Miami obviously) and have a bunch of guys on long term deals to fit under the cap still.

Cleveland won't have enough salary cap space to sign Love as a free agent.  They already gave Irving a 5 year $90 million extension.  Combine that with the $22 million that Lebron will make in 2015-16, and there's no room for Love.

The thing Cleveland has going for them is that Love publicly stated that he is willing to sign a long term extension with Cleveland if he's traded there.  He has not given the same guarantee to any other team AFAIK.  So while other teams may have the capacity to offer Minnesota a better deal, they might not actually make that offer if they know they are just renting Love for one year, and he'll go elsewhere in free agency after that.

I know Wiggins has been touted to have tons of potential, but if you're Cleveland, I think if push comes to shove...you have to give him up for Love.  I agree with playing hardball now, but if Minnesota balks, Cleveland has to give in.  This is not about protecting the 10 year future of Cleveland by keeping a promising 19 year old.  It's about winning now.  Cleveland is a city that hasn't won a championship in 50 years.  And Lebron is only signing a 2 year deal...there is no guarantee he'll be there till he retires.  But if you can lock up Irving, Love, and James for the next 5 years...who cares if you end up sucking in 2021 if you end up with a couple of championships and 5 solid years of winning teams?  Maybe Wiggins is the real deal and ready to be a solid championship contributor right now...but compared to Love???

I'm not as familiar with NBA salary cap as I am the NFL's, but why would they be able to trade for him and afford his salary (while also giving him the massive extension) but not as a FA?

In the NBA, there is not a hard cap.  One of the ways you can go over the salary cap is to resign a player that is already on your team (an extension), resign a free agent who was previously on your team, or sign the rookies you drafted (there are other ways like the mid level exception, etc).  So once Cleveland signs Wiggins, the other rookies, and whoever they fill out thier roster with (Mike Miller, etc), they will almost certainly be over the cap due to the big chunk that LeBron and Irving take up.  Once you're over the cap, you cannot sign any free agents that were not on your team...like Kevin Love.  If Cleveland made a trade for Love, then he would be a Cav...and when his contract is up after 2015, Cleveland can resign him for the max even though it puts them WAY OVER the cap.  However, they would be subject to luxury tax penalties.

I wasn't aware of the TV contract deal coming up...but that makes sense as to why LeBron did not sign a long term deal now.  Because of the financial security his endorsements offer, he can afford to do this unlike other guys like Melo and Bosh who should take their money while the iron is hot.

Chris also brought up a good point about LeBron's opt out option after 2015.  If he opts out, it might free up enough salary cap space to sign Love...then once Love is signed, LeBron can resign for another 1 year deal thus putting Cleveland over the cap again because it's allowed.  If LeBron signed a 2 year deal without an opt out option, there is no way they can sign another big decent free agent next year.




Thanks Jason, you made something that is complicated somewhat understandable!
I've got to think the Cavs and LeBron's agents have thought this whole thing through from 50 million different angles.
Basically, maximizing LeBron's income while allowing for maximum talent beside him on the Cavs.
  • ..and like you mentioned, and LeBron has mentioned, they are looking at long-term success.
  • Cleveland fans should be ecstatic!
    2014-07-17 6:42 AM
    in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

    I've got to think the Cavs and LeBron's agents have thought this whole thing through from 50 million different angles. 
    Basically, maximizing LeBron's income while allowing for maximum talent beside him on the Cavs.

     

    The one thing we couldn't ever do while he was here the first time, was afford to sign decent talent.

    Also, with him here, we were all but guaranteed to never pick him enough in the draft to really gain any star talent that way.

     

     

    Him leaving really was best for both of us.  We won 3 of 4 NBA lotteries, and acquired a lot of young up-and-coming talent by getting guys like Irving and Ender, we got our cap under control so that we can afford free agents going forward, and he got to go grab a couple of rings.

    Honestly, it couldn't have worked out better even if the entire thing had been planned.

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