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2014-06-24 4:00 PM

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Subject: LeBron Opts Out

6 days till free agency officially opens up.  Melo and LeBron have already decided to test the waters.  Probably likely that Melo leaves NY, but LeBron isn't necessarily leaving Miami.  What do you think will happen?  Wade and Bosh have yet to make their opt out decisions yet.  Do you have a favorite team that you hope to land one of these free agents?  

 



2014-06-24 4:04 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
So what. How many teams are going to blow themselves up to afford either ?
James will resign in Miami for another 2%
Melo ? Who cares. Let him go and mess up Boston or Chicago..
2014-06-24 6:12 PM
in reply to: louamerica

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I don't think James resigns with Miami unless Bosh and Wade opt out and resign for less money (or one of them opt out and go somewhere else...not likely).  Miami would be salary cap screwed if Bosh and Wade do not opt out and retain their combined $41 million in salaries for 2014/15.  If James were to resign at a discount (below the max available to him), you're still tying up over $60 million in three players, and only Haslem, Cole, and Anderson are under contract.  Good luck winning with that team considering they are already over the cap with just those players.  Therefore, I think James is weighing his options elsewhere to test Wade and Bosh's hand.  Do they really want to win (take less money), or do they want to get paid.  Clearly they are not worth the $42 million that each would be owed the next two years.

I agree that Melo is not a championship player, but where he goes will shake things up.  Not necessarily in a good way.  

2014-06-24 8:01 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Jason, I respectfully disagree when you say LBJ's not worth $42 million over the next 2 years.
He is easily the best player in the NBA with all due respect to Kevin Durant. They both score at will, but LeBron is a much better distributor and has a body that can bang down low.
The Heat have nothing down low in the form of a rebounding big man. Wade is clearly not the Dwyayne Wade of 2006, or even 2013.
James brought the Heat to 4 straight Finals...and even made the Finals single-handedly with an awful Cavs team a while back.

While I love Melo as a scorer, I need defense. Melo plays it when he wants to, and it's not all the time. If I'm a GM, I'm personally not spending the dough for Melo, but I will for King James.

My prediction at this time?
LeBron stays in Miami. They shuffle the deck on the supporting cast. Wade must cut his salary. Without pain meds, he should be made to test his vertical leap. Then, just compare it to his vertical leap in his prime, and cut his pay by that %.

Melo goes to Chicago and that team (as long as it stays healthy) will be very good. Melo needs to be on a team where he scores 28 per game and the rest of the team rebounds and plays defense.
2014-06-24 8:20 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Lebron and Durant are great players......Go Spurs Go
2014-06-24 9:44 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

Perhaps my post was not clear.  I was trying to state that Bosh and Wade are not worth the $42 million (each...~$20 mil in 2014 and ~$22 mil in 2015) they have left on their contract for the next two years.  James is worth more than the max allowed.  If there were no cap, he would likely make over $50 million a year (think similar to Beckam's contract with the Galaxy).  Jordan made $33 million in his final year with the Bulls in 1998.  The advertising dollars James brings in is far more than any other player in the league.  It's not to say that he's twice as good as others earning max contracts, but he's close to twice as valuable to an NBA owner looking to make a profit.  Same goes for Kobe Bryant...far more valuable to an owner than his contract dictates...even though you could make an argument that he's being overpaid for his production on the court.

So I think we agree that Bosh and Wade are highly overpaid unless they opt out and take a significant pay cut.  I think LeBron would agree with that notion as well.  Which makes me think it's unlikely that LeBron will resign with Miami unless those pay cuts are made.  I mean...why on Earth should LeBron be the one that has to take the pay cut just to make this work?

The thing is though that financially, it would be difficult for Wade to opt out.  With his ailing knees, he'll likely not get another big contract and certainly not a long term one.  Keep in mind that though Bosh, Wade, and LeBron all came from the same draft class, Wade is over 2 years older than Bosh and almost 3 full years older than James.  Bosh could opt out, sign a 2-3 year deal with a pay cut, and at age 32 or 33, still get another decent contract after that assuming his track record of staying relatively healthy keeps.  We just aren't sure how important money is to these guys.  They don't make nearly as much as LeBron does off the court.

I agree that Melo needs a supporting cast that plays defense.  I just don't see it as the full answer to winning a championship.  They have good pieces in place but I think they lose value when you put an isolation scorer in the mix.  The Bulls share the ball, and they all stay involved on both ends of the floor.  How many times do you see a team play great defense when everyone gets touches...then play poor defense when the offense relies on a black hole scorer.  Sort of like how the Lakers defense would suck when Kobe would average 35 points a game.  But be solid when he's averaging 24 points.

 



2014-06-24 10:29 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by Jason N

Perhaps my post was not clear.  I was trying to state that Bosh and Wade are not worth the $42 million (each...~$20 mil in 2014 and ~$22 mil in 2015) they have left on their contract for the next two years.  James is worth more than the max allowed.  If there were no cap, he would likely make over $50 million a year (think similar to Beckam's contract with the Galaxy).  Jordan made $33 million in his final year with the Bulls in 1998.  The advertising dollars James brings in is far more than any other player in the league.  It's not to say that he's twice as good as others earning max contracts, but he's close to twice as valuable to an NBA owner looking to make a profit.  Same goes for Kobe Bryant...far more valuable to an owner than his contract dictates...even though you could make an argument that he's being overpaid for his production on the court.

So I think we agree that Bosh and Wade are highly overpaid unless they opt out and take a significant pay cut.  I think LeBron would agree with that notion as well.  Which makes me think it's unlikely that LeBron will resign with Miami unless those pay cuts are made.  I mean...why on Earth should LeBron be the one that has to take the pay cut just to make this work?

The thing is though that financially, it would be difficult for Wade to opt out.  With his ailing knees, he'll likely not get another big contract and certainly not a long term one.  Keep in mind that though Bosh, Wade, and LeBron all came from the same draft class, Wade is over 2 years older than Bosh and almost 3 full years older than James.  Bosh could opt out, sign a 2-3 year deal with a pay cut, and at age 32 or 33, still get another decent contract after that assuming his track record of staying relatively healthy keeps.  We just aren't sure how important money is to these guys.  They don't make nearly as much as LeBron does off the court.

I agree that Melo needs a supporting cast that plays defense.  I just don't see it as the full answer to winning a championship.  They have good pieces in place but I think they lose value when you put an isolation scorer in the mix.  The Bulls share the ball, and they all stay involved on both ends of the floor.  How many times do you see a team play great defense when everyone gets touches...then play poor defense when the offense relies on a black hole scorer.  Sort of like how the Lakers defense would suck when Kobe would average 35 points a game.  But be solid when he's averaging 24 points.

 




Totally agree on almost all your points. The only one I'm interested to see how it would would work out is Melo in Chi-Town.
MJ was a black hole scorer...worked for him.
I think this Bulls team is gritty on D and NEEDS a scorer in the worst way. They couldn't buy a bucket in the playoffs this year. Melo is a prolific scorer. To say he's not a championship player is similar to saying Barry Sanders isn't a Super Bowl running back...the guy hasn't had a chance.

btw, I'm not a Bosh fan. I know he's hit some big shots, but I'm just not crazy about having my big that far out on the perimeter all the time. That's just me.
2014-06-26 4:29 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

I wouldn't consider Jordan a black hole scorer.  He was incredibly efficient.  If you look at his prime as a scorer, when he was averaging well over 30 points a game, he would do it on 53-55% shooting.  As he aged, and relied more on his jump shot, his shooting numbers did come down...around to the 48% mark...which is still much higher than Kobe or Melo.  But that's also around the time he started to depend more on Pippen, Kukoc, and other role players to share the load.  Jordan's assist numbers also dwindle Melo's.  Melo requires far more touches to get 25-30 points...and he often does it with clear outs or isolation rather than a triangle offense system.

Chicago needs a scorer...but not Melo...at least IMHO.  Of course assuming that Rose can come back healthy, they just need someone like a David Lee, Kevin Love, Paul George, etc type scorer.  

Melo is the kind of guy who can carry you for a game or two...but in the grind of the NBA playoffs which requires 16 wins, and likely around 25 total games, I just don't see his style prevailing.  He has too many games where he chucks up 28 shots and only scores 23 points.

2014-06-26 5:20 PM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by Jason N

Perhaps my post was not clear.  I was trying to state that Bosh and Wade are not worth the $42 million (each...~$20 mil in 2014 and ~$22 mil in 2015) they have left on their contract for the next two years.  James is worth more than the max allowed.  If there were no cap, he would likely make over $50 million a year (think similar to Beckam's contract with the Galaxy).  Jordan made $33 million in his final year with the Bulls in 1998.  The advertising dollars James brings in is far more than any other player in the league.  It's not to say that he's twice as good as others earning max contracts, but he's close to twice as valuable to an NBA owner looking to make a profit.  Same goes for Kobe Bryant...far more valuable to an owner than his contract dictates...even though you could make an argument that he's being overpaid for his production on the court.

So I think we agree that Bosh and Wade are highly overpaid unless they opt out and take a significant pay cut.  I think LeBron would agree with that notion as well.  Which makes me think it's unlikely that LeBron will resign with Miami unless those pay cuts are made.  I mean...why on Earth should LeBron be the one that has to take the pay cut just to make this work?

The thing is though that financially, it would be difficult for Wade to opt out.  With his ailing knees, he'll likely not get another big contract and certainly not a long term one.  Keep in mind that though Bosh, Wade, and LeBron all came from the same draft class, Wade is over 2 years older than Bosh and almost 3 full years older than James.  Bosh could opt out, sign a 2-3 year deal with a pay cut, and at age 32 or 33, still get another decent contract after that assuming his track record of staying relatively healthy keeps.  We just aren't sure how important money is to these guys.  They don't make nearly as much as LeBron does off the court.

I agree that Melo needs a supporting cast that plays defense.  I just don't see it as the full answer to winning a championship.  They have good pieces in place but I think they lose value when you put an isolation scorer in the mix.  The Bulls share the ball, and they all stay involved on both ends of the floor.  How many times do you see a team play great defense when everyone gets touches...then play poor defense when the offense relies on a black hole scorer.  Sort of like how the Lakers defense would suck when Kobe would average 35 points a game.  But be solid when he's averaging 24 points.

 




Totally agree on almost all your points. The only one I'm interested to see how it would would work out is Melo in Chi-Town.
MJ was a black hole scorer...worked for him.
I think this Bulls team is gritty on D and NEEDS a scorer in the worst way. They couldn't buy a bucket in the playoffs this year. Melo is a prolific scorer. To say he's not a championship player is similar to saying Barry Sanders isn't a Super Bowl running back...the guy hasn't had a chance.

btw, I'm not a Bosh fan. I know he's hit some big shots, but I'm just not crazy about having my big that far out on the perimeter all the time. That's just me.



Bosh only plays out because they want him to drag a defender away from the rim so Lebron/Wade can drive to the lane. In Toronto, Bosh played down low most of the time.
2014-06-26 5:48 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

Josh...I agree.  Within the offense Miami has (or maybe had), Bosh needed to get out of the paint to allow for driving lanes for Wade and James.  Bosh is barely an all star level player as it is with Miami, but if he went to another team on his own, I think he still has enough game to be a 22 and 10 player.  He just doesn't get enough touches, nor does the offense run through him as a first, or most times not even a second option.  Hard for him to get rebounds and second chance points when he's out near the 3 point line most of the time.



Edited by Jason N 2014-06-26 5:48 PM
2014-06-27 5:09 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by Jason N

I wouldn't consider Jordan a black hole scorer.  He was incredibly efficient.  If you look at his prime as a scorer, when he was averaging well over 30 points a game, he would do it on 53-55% shooting.  As he aged, and relied more on his jump shot, his shooting numbers did come down...around to the 48% mark...which is still much higher than Kobe or Melo.  But that's also around the time he started to depend more on Pippen, Kukoc, and other role players to share the load.  Jordan's assist numbers also dwindle Melo's.  Melo requires far more touches to get 25-30 points...and he often does it with clear outs or isolation rather than a triangle offense system.

Chicago needs a scorer...but not Melo...at least IMHO.  Of course assuming that Rose can come back healthy, they just need someone like a David Lee, Kevin Love, Paul George, etc type scorer.  

Melo is the kind of guy who can carry you for a game or two...but in the grind of the NBA playoffs which requires 16 wins, and likely around 25 total games, I just don't see his style prevailing.  He has too many games where he chucks up 28 shots and only scores 23 points.




Trust me, I won't argue that Jordan's in the top-2 or 3 when you're talking "best of all-time," but let's not forget, he did not average over 50% FG% past '92. btw, I didn't mean to imply a "black-hole" scorer is necessarily bad...as Jordan clearly illustrated.
Carmelo is 45% from the field, and MJ was about 48 to 49%. Melo is clearly a better 3-point shooter than MJ too.
Melo never had the supporting cast Michael had either.
Jordan's assist #'s kill Melo's because of the system they ran. Jordan brought the ball up the court too. He was a 6' 6" guard. Melo's a 6' 8" forward.
BUT, the reason why Melo should not be spoken in the same sentence as Jordan is one word. Defense.
Jordan did it on both ends. While I love Melo's offensive game, he doesn't have the defense.
Which is why I still believe he'd be a perfect fit in Chi-town. So he has a less than stellar game more frequently than Lee Love or George...but I'll roll with his guaranteed 30+ in the other games, plus, I'll take the future hall-of-famer any day over the "maybe a future hall-of-famer."
Add Lee, Love, or George to Chicago, and I still don't think that gets them over the hump.

btw, sorry I got off-topic here...I'll get back on-topic by proclaiming what I believe to be true, any team that gets LeBron James will be getting the man who, at the end of his career, will be known as the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game. He's worth every penny, and then some. Wade and Ray Allen are on the down side of their careers. Jordan had his Ho Grant, Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, etc. Kobe had Shaq for God's sake. Get LeBron the right supporting cast and he's unbeatable. If the Heat just "re-tool" like Riley said, they're screwed. James, Wade, Bosh, Allen may get to the Finals next year, but they can't beat the West with the same team. If they don't make a big move (which would mean the big 3 taking less money which aint gonna happen), I really think a Melo-led Bulls team (if D Rose stays healthy) could take them out.






2014-06-28 9:02 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by Jason N

I wouldn't consider Jordan a black hole scorer.  He was incredibly efficient.  If you look at his prime as a scorer, when he was averaging well over 30 points a game, he would do it on 53-55% shooting.  As he aged, and relied more on his jump shot, his shooting numbers did come down...around to the 48% mark...which is still much higher than Kobe or Melo.  But that's also around the time he started to depend more on Pippen, Kukoc, and other role players to share the load.  Jordan's assist numbers also dwindle Melo's.  Melo requires far more touches to get 25-30 points...and he often does it with clear outs or isolation rather than a triangle offense system.

Chicago needs a scorer...but not Melo...at least IMHO.  Of course assuming that Rose can come back healthy, they just need someone like a David Lee, Kevin Love, Paul George, etc type scorer.  

Melo is the kind of guy who can carry you for a game or two...but in the grind of the NBA playoffs which requires 16 wins, and likely around 25 total games, I just don't see his style prevailing.  He has too many games where he chucks up 28 shots and only scores 23 points.

Trust me, I won't argue that Jordan's in the top-2 or 3 when you're talking "best of all-time," but let's not forget, he did not average over 50% FG% past '92. btw, I didn't mean to imply a "black-hole" scorer is necessarily bad...as Jordan clearly illustrated. Carmelo is 45% from the field, and MJ was about 48 to 49%. Melo is clearly a better 3-point shooter than MJ too. Melo never had the supporting cast Michael had either. Jordan's assist #'s kill Melo's because of the system they ran. Jordan brought the ball up the court too. He was a 6' 6" guard. Melo's a 6' 8" forward. BUT, the reason why Melo should not be spoken in the same sentence as Jordan is one word. Defense. Jordan did it on both ends. While I love Melo's offensive game, he doesn't have the defense. Which is why I still believe he'd be a perfect fit in Chi-town. So he has a less than stellar game more frequently than Lee Love or George...but I'll roll with his guaranteed 30+ in the other games, plus, I'll take the future hall-of-famer any day over the "maybe a future hall-of-famer." Add Lee, Love, or George to Chicago, and I still don't think that gets them over the hump. btw, sorry I got off-topic here...I'll get back on-topic by proclaiming what I believe to be true, any team that gets LeBron James will be getting the man who, at the end of his career, will be known as the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game. He's worth every penny, and then some. Wade and Ray Allen are on the down side of their careers. Jordan had his Ho Grant, Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, etc. Kobe had Shaq for God's sake. Get LeBron the right supporting cast and he's unbeatable. If the Heat just "re-tool" like Riley said, they're screwed. James, Wade, Bosh, Allen may get to the Finals next year, but they can't beat the West with the same team. If they don't make a big move (which would mean the big 3 taking less money which aint gonna happen), I really think a Melo-led Bulls team (if D Rose stays healthy) could take them out.

 

No way, He will never be the GOAT (Greatest of all time). He will be known as a hired gun that would go anywhere that would give him a chance to win. He will be known as a great player that could never win it alone. For you to say he is the best player of all time is your opinion to have, IMO there are others ahead of him. Jordan went to 6 Finals and won 6 Championships, Kobe has 5,  Duncan has 5 and that is only going back to the modern era. To me, the greatest player ever does nto disappear in big games.

 

Does it not seem weird that everyone is always trying to convince people that LeBron is great? Shouldn't you be able to watch him play and be able to tell by his actions instead of people always telling us he is the greatest?

2014-06-28 10:09 AM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
Originally posted by jford2309

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
Originally posted by Jason N

I wouldn't consider Jordan a black hole scorer.  He was incredibly efficient.  If you look at his prime as a scorer, when he was averaging well over 30 points a game, he would do it on 53-55% shooting.  As he aged, and relied more on his jump shot, his shooting numbers did come down...around to the 48% mark...which is still much higher than Kobe or Melo.  But that's also around the time he started to depend more on Pippen, Kukoc, and other role players to share the load.  Jordan's assist numbers also dwindle Melo's.  Melo requires far more touches to get 25-30 points...and he often does it with clear outs or isolation rather than a triangle offense system.

Chicago needs a scorer...but not Melo...at least IMHO.  Of course assuming that Rose can come back healthy, they just need someone like a David Lee, Kevin Love, Paul George, etc type scorer.  

Melo is the kind of guy who can carry you for a game or two...but in the grind of the NBA playoffs which requires 16 wins, and likely around 25 total games, I just don't see his style prevailing.  He has too many games where he chucks up 28 shots and only scores 23 points.

Trust me, I won't argue that Jordan's in the top-2 or 3 when you're talking "best of all-time," but let's not forget, he did not average over 50% FG% past '92. btw, I didn't mean to imply a "black-hole" scorer is necessarily bad...as Jordan clearly illustrated. Carmelo is 45% from the field, and MJ was about 48 to 49%. Melo is clearly a better 3-point shooter than MJ too. Melo never had the supporting cast Michael had either. Jordan's assist #'s kill Melo's because of the system they ran. Jordan brought the ball up the court too. He was a 6' 6" guard. Melo's a 6' 8" forward. BUT, the reason why Melo should not be spoken in the same sentence as Jordan is one word. Defense. Jordan did it on both ends. While I love Melo's offensive game, he doesn't have the defense. Which is why I still believe he'd be a perfect fit in Chi-town. So he has a less than stellar game more frequently than Lee Love or George...but I'll roll with his guaranteed 30+ in the other games, plus, I'll take the future hall-of-famer any day over the "maybe a future hall-of-famer." Add Lee, Love, or George to Chicago, and I still don't think that gets them over the hump. btw, sorry I got off-topic here...I'll get back on-topic by proclaiming what I believe to be true, any team that gets LeBron James will be getting the man who, at the end of his career, will be known as the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game. He's worth every penny, and then some. Wade and Ray Allen are on the down side of their careers. Jordan had his Ho Grant, Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, etc. Kobe had Shaq for God's sake. Get LeBron the right supporting cast and he's unbeatable. If the Heat just "re-tool" like Riley said, they're screwed. James, Wade, Bosh, Allen may get to the Finals next year, but they can't beat the West with the same team. If they don't make a big move (which would mean the big 3 taking less money which aint gonna happen), I really think a Melo-led Bulls team (if D Rose stays healthy) could take them out.

 

No way, He will never be the GOAT (Greatest of all time). He will be known as a hired gun that would go anywhere that would give him a chance to win. He will be known as a great player that could never win it alone. For you to say he is the best player of all time is your opinion to have, IMO there are others ahead of him. Jordan went to 6 Finals and won 6 Championships, Kobe has 5,  Duncan has 5 and that is only going back to the modern era. To me, the greatest player ever does nto disappear in big games.

 

Does it not seem weird that everyone is always trying to convince people that LeBron is great? Shouldn't you be able to watch him play and be able to tell by his actions instead of people always telling us he is the greatest?




"A great player that could never win it alone..." Now that is priceless. Jordan had a heck of a supporting cast. Kobe...hmm, let's see. Who was that freak of nature, behemoth 3% body fat 300 pound hall-of famer he played with? Oh yeah, Shaq.
Here's the deal with GOAT...it's totally subjective. Roethlisberger's got more rings than Dan Marino. I s Big Ben better than Marino? Heck no. Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer have rings too. They're not even close to Marino.
From what I understand, Elgin Baylor never won a ring. He's still among the greatest of all time.

  • ..and please tell me you're joking if you are truly implying Jordan and Kobe didn't have people banging the drum of GOAT throughout their playing days. They most certainly did...and do have folks claiming that.
  • LeBron is a physical specimen we've never seen before. 6' 8", 250 pounds, and he's as quick as a guard. IMO, his biggest weakness is being too unselfish on the court.
    btw, to say he only does it with a strong supporting cast, just look at '07. The Cavs team that made the Finals was probably one of the worst teams ever.
    LeBron will get plenty more rings. Like you said JFord, he'll be criticized for going to different teams...which I think is unfair. If an owner is either too cheap (or too incompetent) to put the right pieces in place, players have to leave. Had LeBron stayed in Cleveland, he'd have 0 rings. Had Jordan or Kobe been in the same situation without a supporting cast, they'd also have zero rings.
    The negative on LeBron is his lack of Jordan-like charisma. Even Kobe who for God's sake was involved in a rape situation is probably liked by more folks out there than LeBron. Michael was a womanizing gambling addict...but he had/has charisma and folks will always love him. Personally, I could care less what athletes do off the court/field/etc., all these guys are great. Imagining each of them playing with different supporting casts is always fun.

    Melo's "decision" will be announced in early July. I think Houston's too muddy. Dwight's a headcase. If he's smart, he'll go to Chicago.

  • ..don'tcha love sports???

  • 2014-06-28 11:51 AM
    in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

    Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
    Originally posted by jford2309

    Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
    Originally posted by Jason N

    I wouldn't consider Jordan a black hole scorer.  He was incredibly efficient.  If you look at his prime as a scorer, when he was averaging well over 30 points a game, he would do it on 53-55% shooting.  As he aged, and relied more on his jump shot, his shooting numbers did come down...around to the 48% mark...which is still much higher than Kobe or Melo.  But that's also around the time he started to depend more on Pippen, Kukoc, and other role players to share the load.  Jordan's assist numbers also dwindle Melo's.  Melo requires far more touches to get 25-30 points...and he often does it with clear outs or isolation rather than a triangle offense system.

    Chicago needs a scorer...but not Melo...at least IMHO.  Of course assuming that Rose can come back healthy, they just need someone like a David Lee, Kevin Love, Paul George, etc type scorer.  

    Melo is the kind of guy who can carry you for a game or two...but in the grind of the NBA playoffs which requires 16 wins, and likely around 25 total games, I just don't see his style prevailing.  He has too many games where he chucks up 28 shots and only scores 23 points.

    Trust me, I won't argue that Jordan's in the top-2 or 3 when you're talking "best of all-time," but let's not forget, he did not average over 50% FG% past '92. btw, I didn't mean to imply a "black-hole" scorer is necessarily bad...as Jordan clearly illustrated. Carmelo is 45% from the field, and MJ was about 48 to 49%. Melo is clearly a better 3-point shooter than MJ too. Melo never had the supporting cast Michael had either. Jordan's assist #'s kill Melo's because of the system they ran. Jordan brought the ball up the court too. He was a 6' 6" guard. Melo's a 6' 8" forward. BUT, the reason why Melo should not be spoken in the same sentence as Jordan is one word. Defense. Jordan did it on both ends. While I love Melo's offensive game, he doesn't have the defense. Which is why I still believe he'd be a perfect fit in Chi-town. So he has a less than stellar game more frequently than Lee Love or George...but I'll roll with his guaranteed 30+ in the other games, plus, I'll take the future hall-of-famer any day over the "maybe a future hall-of-famer." Add Lee, Love, or George to Chicago, and I still don't think that gets them over the hump. btw, sorry I got off-topic here...I'll get back on-topic by proclaiming what I believe to be true, any team that gets LeBron James will be getting the man who, at the end of his career, will be known as the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game. He's worth every penny, and then some. Wade and Ray Allen are on the down side of their careers. Jordan had his Ho Grant, Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, etc. Kobe had Shaq for God's sake. Get LeBron the right supporting cast and he's unbeatable. If the Heat just "re-tool" like Riley said, they're screwed. James, Wade, Bosh, Allen may get to the Finals next year, but they can't beat the West with the same team. If they don't make a big move (which would mean the big 3 taking less money which aint gonna happen), I really think a Melo-led Bulls team (if D Rose stays healthy) could take them out.

     

    No way, He will never be the GOAT (Greatest of all time). He will be known as a hired gun that would go anywhere that would give him a chance to win. He will be known as a great player that could never win it alone. For you to say he is the best player of all time is your opinion to have, IMO there are others ahead of him. Jordan went to 6 Finals and won 6 Championships, Kobe has 5,  Duncan has 5 and that is only going back to the modern era. To me, the greatest player ever does nto disappear in big games.

     

    Does it not seem weird that everyone is always trying to convince people that LeBron is great? Shouldn't you be able to watch him play and be able to tell by his actions instead of people always telling us he is the greatest?

    "A great player that could never win it alone..." Now that is priceless. Jordan had a heck of a supporting cast. Kobe...hmm, let's see. Who was that freak of nature, behemoth 3% body fat 300 pound hall-of famer he played with? Oh yeah, Shaq. Here's the deal with GOAT...it's totally subjective. Roethlisberger's got more rings than Dan Marino. I s Big Ben better than Marino? Heck no. Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer have rings too. They're not even close to Marino. From what I understand, Elgin Baylor never won a ring. He's still among the greatest of all time. ...and please tell me you're joking if you are truly implying Jordan and Kobe didn't have people banging the drum of GOAT throughout their playing days. They most certainly did...and do have folks claiming that. LeBron is a physical specimen we've never seen before. 6' 8", 250 pounds, and he's as quick as a guard. IMO, his biggest weakness is being too unselfish on the court. btw, to say he only does it with a strong supporting cast, just look at '07. The Cavs team that made the Finals was probably one of the worst teams ever. LeBron will get plenty more rings. Like you said JFord, he'll be criticized for going to different teams...which I think is unfair. If an owner is either too cheap (or too incompetent) to put the right pieces in place, players have to leave. Had LeBron stayed in Cleveland, he'd have 0 rings. Had Jordan or Kobe been in the same situation without a supporting cast, they'd also have zero rings. The negative on LeBron is his lack of Jordan-like charisma. Even Kobe who for God's sake was involved in a rape situation is probably liked by more folks out there than LeBron. Michael was a womanizing gambling addict...but he had/has charisma and folks will always love him. Personally, I could care less what athletes do off the court/field/etc., all these guys are great. Imagining each of them playing with different supporting casts is always fun. Melo's "decision" will be announced in early July. I think Houston's too muddy. Dwight's a headcase. If he's smart, he'll go to Chicago. ...don'tcha love sports???

     

    Two things:

    1. Your comparison to Marino. Would LeFlop  Lebron (OK totally different convo) be any less a player had he stayed with the Cavs and won zero rings, just like Marino did with Miami? I would have more respect for him doing that instead of bouncing around from team to team being that hired gun to win a title.

    2. Yes Jordan had an excellent cast around him, but it was something that was developed and put in place. The Cavs in 07 had the best regular season record that year I believe in the NBA but couldn't do it duringt the playoffs. Jordan, Barkley (another great without a title) Bird and Johnson would have never teamed up just to wim a title. They would have all rather beat each other for the title. I don't see that with LeBron.

     

    I agree that LeBron is a great player, but I do nto see the killer instinct like other great have had consistently.

    2014-06-28 8:46 PM
    in reply to: jford2309

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
    Originally posted by jford2309

    Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
    Originally posted by jford2309

    Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
    Originally posted by Jason N

    I wouldn't consider Jordan a black hole scorer.  He was incredibly efficient.  If you look at his prime as a scorer, when he was averaging well over 30 points a game, he would do it on 53-55% shooting.  As he aged, and relied more on his jump shot, his shooting numbers did come down...around to the 48% mark...which is still much higher than Kobe or Melo.  But that's also around the time he started to depend more on Pippen, Kukoc, and other role players to share the load.  Jordan's assist numbers also dwindle Melo's.  Melo requires far more touches to get 25-30 points...and he often does it with clear outs or isolation rather than a triangle offense system.

    Chicago needs a scorer...but not Melo...at least IMHO.  Of course assuming that Rose can come back healthy, they just need someone like a David Lee, Kevin Love, Paul George, etc type scorer.  

    Melo is the kind of guy who can carry you for a game or two...but in the grind of the NBA playoffs which requires 16 wins, and likely around 25 total games, I just don't see his style prevailing.  He has too many games where he chucks up 28 shots and only scores 23 points.

    Trust me, I won't argue that Jordan's in the top-2 or 3 when you're talking "best of all-time," but let's not forget, he did not average over 50% FG% past '92. btw, I didn't mean to imply a "black-hole" scorer is necessarily bad...as Jordan clearly illustrated. Carmelo is 45% from the field, and MJ was about 48 to 49%. Melo is clearly a better 3-point shooter than MJ too. Melo never had the supporting cast Michael had either. Jordan's assist #'s kill Melo's because of the system they ran. Jordan brought the ball up the court too. He was a 6' 6" guard. Melo's a 6' 8" forward. BUT, the reason why Melo should not be spoken in the same sentence as Jordan is one word. Defense. Jordan did it on both ends. While I love Melo's offensive game, he doesn't have the defense. Which is why I still believe he'd be a perfect fit in Chi-town. So he has a less than stellar game more frequently than Lee Love or George...but I'll roll with his guaranteed 30+ in the other games, plus, I'll take the future hall-of-famer any day over the "maybe a future hall-of-famer." Add Lee, Love, or George to Chicago, and I still don't think that gets them over the hump. btw, sorry I got off-topic here...I'll get back on-topic by proclaiming what I believe to be true, any team that gets LeBron James will be getting the man who, at the end of his career, will be known as the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game. He's worth every penny, and then some. Wade and Ray Allen are on the down side of their careers. Jordan had his Ho Grant, Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, etc. Kobe had Shaq for God's sake. Get LeBron the right supporting cast and he's unbeatable. If the Heat just "re-tool" like Riley said, they're screwed. James, Wade, Bosh, Allen may get to the Finals next year, but they can't beat the West with the same team. If they don't make a big move (which would mean the big 3 taking less money which aint gonna happen), I really think a Melo-led Bulls team (if D Rose stays healthy) could take them out.

     

    No way, He will never be the GOAT (Greatest of all time). He will be known as a hired gun that would go anywhere that would give him a chance to win. He will be known as a great player that could never win it alone. For you to say he is the best player of all time is your opinion to have, IMO there are others ahead of him. Jordan went to 6 Finals and won 6 Championships, Kobe has 5,  Duncan has 5 and that is only going back to the modern era. To me, the greatest player ever does nto disappear in big games.

     

    Does it not seem weird that everyone is always trying to convince people that LeBron is great? Shouldn't you be able to watch him play and be able to tell by his actions instead of people always telling us he is the greatest?

    "A great player that could never win it alone..." Now that is priceless. Jordan had a heck of a supporting cast. Kobe...hmm, let's see. Who was that freak of nature, behemoth 3% body fat 300 pound hall-of famer he played with? Oh yeah, Shaq. Here's the deal with GOAT...it's totally subjective. Roethlisberger's got more rings than Dan Marino. I s Big Ben better than Marino? Heck no. Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer have rings too. They're not even close to Marino. From what I understand, Elgin Baylor never won a ring. He's still among the greatest of all time. ...and please tell me you're joking if you are truly implying Jordan and Kobe didn't have people banging the drum of GOAT throughout their playing days. They most certainly did...and do have folks claiming that. LeBron is a physical specimen we've never seen before. 6' 8", 250 pounds, and he's as quick as a guard. IMO, his biggest weakness is being too unselfish on the court. btw, to say he only does it with a strong supporting cast, just look at '07. The Cavs team that made the Finals was probably one of the worst teams ever. LeBron will get plenty more rings. Like you said JFord, he'll be criticized for going to different teams...which I think is unfair. If an owner is either too cheap (or too incompetent) to put the right pieces in place, players have to leave. Had LeBron stayed in Cleveland, he'd have 0 rings. Had Jordan or Kobe been in the same situation without a supporting cast, they'd also have zero rings. The negative on LeBron is his lack of Jordan-like charisma. Even Kobe who for God's sake was involved in a rape situation is probably liked by more folks out there than LeBron. Michael was a womanizing gambling addict...but he had/has charisma and folks will always love him. Personally, I could care less what athletes do off the court/field/etc., all these guys are great. Imagining each of them playing with different supporting casts is always fun. Melo's "decision" will be announced in early July. I think Houston's too muddy. Dwight's a headcase. If he's smart, he'll go to Chicago. ...don'tcha love sports???

     

    Two things:

    1. Your comparison to Marino. Would LeFlop  Lebron (OK totally different convo) be any less a player had he stayed with the Cavs and won zero rings, just like Marino did with Miami? I would have more respect for him doing that instead of bouncing around from team to team being that hired gun to win a title.

    2. Yes Jordan had an excellent cast around him, but it was something that was developed and put in place. The Cavs in 07 had the best regular season record that year I believe in the NBA but couldn't do it duringt the playoffs. Jordan, Barkley (another great without a title) Bird and Johnson would have never teamed up just to wim a title. They would have all rather beat each other for the title. I don't see that with LeBron.

     

    I agree that LeBron is a great player, but I do nto see the killer instinct like other great have had consistently.




    You're just giving LeBron more props for what he did carrying that sorry Cavs team on his shoulders into the Finals...and they did "do it" during the playoffs, just lost to a much better team in the Spurs in '07.
    Bird and Johnson never had to team up to win a title. They were on the best teams of the '80's. It was a different game back then. It was pre-salary cap.
    You had Magic-Worthy-Jabbar and excellent role players in Cooper-Scott-Rambis.
    You had Bird-McHale-Parrish with excellent role players in Ainge and DJ.
    So yes, had Bird or Johnson been on a franchise that sucked and had NO INTENTION of spending the necessary money to surround them with talent, you're darn right they would have flown the coop, absolutely no question about it. That's what competitors do.
    I think your better argument is the "killer instinct" argument. Yes, LeBron has come up short at some big times...but he's also absolutely nailed it in crucial games...I give you 2013's Game 7. That performance single-handedly won that game for the Heat. He was unreal and I think you know that.
    That said, it hasn't happened every time and he laid some eggs. The Finals against the Mavs? he just seemed to be pass-first. He needs to be more selfish on the court. Maybe Melo can give him some lessons on that in the off-season.
    2014-06-30 10:00 AM
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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
    Originally posted by jford2309

     

    Two things:

    1. Your comparison to Marino. Would LeFlop  Lebron (OK totally different convo) be any less a player had he stayed with the Cavs and won zero rings, just like Marino did with Miami? I would have more respect for him doing that instead of bouncing around from team to team being that hired gun to win a title.

    2. Yes Jordan had an excellent cast around him, but it was something that was developed and put in place. The Cavs in 07 had the best regular season record that year I believe in the NBA but couldn't do it duringt the playoffs. Jordan, Barkley (another great without a title) Bird and Johnson would have never teamed up just to wim a title. They would have all rather beat each other for the title. I don't see that with LeBron.

     

    I agree that LeBron is a great player, but I do nto see the killer instinct like other great have had consistently.




    1. You might have more respect for him but if he stays in Cleveland on bad teams his whole career, he'll never be considered GOAT. Instead of comparing him to Jordan, he'd be compared to Barkley or Malone. Both incredible players who could never win the big one.

    2. I really don't understand how people hold the fact that he didn't want to play for a bad organization his whole career against him. Why would he want to be the Barry Sanders of the NBA?

    Lebron is the best player in the league right now and I don't think even KD is that close to him.

    Edited by JoshR 2014-06-30 10:01 AM


    2014-07-09 9:14 AM
    in reply to: Jason N

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
    Is the shoe going to drop today? I think we can all agree at this point we are down to two teams in the LeBron sweepstakes, Miami and Cleveland. If he stays in Miami we either go through this again next year or in two. If he comes home to Cleveland, I think he signs for the full max in terms of years and money. As we sit here this morning before the big meeting with Riley et al, I think he is leaning towards Cleveland. Riley is an incredible salesman though and as a Cleveland fan that scares me. I hope LeBron gives the Cavs a chance to sit down with him after the Miami contingent is gone. With the summer league underway the coaching staff is in Las Vegas they have a good opportunity.

    I just hope we find out today. Then we can see what the rest of the league will do.
    2014-07-09 10:18 AM
    in reply to: Its Only Money

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
    Originally posted by Its Only Money

    Is the shoe going to drop today? I think we can all agree at this point we are down to two teams in the LeBron sweepstakes, Miami and Cleveland. If he stays in Miami we either go through this again next year or in two. If he comes home to Cleveland, I think he signs for the full max in terms of years and money. As we sit here this morning before the big meeting with Riley et al, I think he is leaning towards Cleveland. Riley is an incredible salesman though and as a Cleveland fan that scares me. I hope LeBron gives the Cavs a chance to sit down with him after the Miami contingent is gone. With the summer league underway the coaching staff is in Las Vegas they have a good opportunity.

    I just hope we find out today. Then we can see what the rest of the league will do.


    Latest scheme was Melo convincing LBJ to join him in New York. Get Philly to take Stoudemire and someone else to take Bargnani and they'd have just enough cap space to get it done. Seems totally far-fetched(esp. the part about Stoudemire) but wouldn't underestimate Jackson's skills. I know it was supposed to be down to Miami and Cleveland but it would be a mistake to rule out the appeal of New York..

    This has been one of the more compelling free-agent markets in a while..
    2014-07-11 11:44 AM
    in reply to: alltom1

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

    Yup. That just happened.

     

     

    2014-07-11 12:10 PM
    in reply to: cgregg

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

    Originally posted by cgregg

    Yup. That just happened.

     

     

    Good for him, my liking of LBJ just went up a few points!

    2014-07-11 2:03 PM
    in reply to: cgregg

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

    Originally posted by cgregg

    Yup. That just happened.

     

     

    I honestly did not expect that.  I bet there are a lot of people who wish they had not burned their James #23 jersey.  If he keeps his #6 (out of respect for Jordan), than those #23s would be a huge collector's item.



    2014-07-11 3:26 PM
    in reply to: Jason N

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
    Originally posted by Jason N

    Originally posted by cgregg

    Yup. That just happened.

     

     

    I honestly did not expect that.  I bet there are a lot of people who wish they had not burned their James #23 jersey.  If he keeps his #6 (out of respect for Jordan), than those #23s would be a huge collector's item.





    Once the Cavs seal up a deal for Kevin Love, they will undoubtedly be the favorite to win it all next season.
    Kudos to LBJ.

  • ..next, time for Melo to go back to NY and collect some very large checks.
  • I still think if he went to Chicago, that team could challenge Cleveland.
    If Melo goes back to NY, and Love goes to Cleveland, there will be a 99.999% certainty that Cleveland makes the Finals. Take it to the bank!

    2014-07-11 5:50 PM
    in reply to: jford2309

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

    Originally posted by jford2309

    Originally posted by cgregg

    Yup. That just happened.

     

     

    Good for him, my liking of LBJ just went up a few points!

     

    The letter he wrote, and the story of he and Dan Gilbert patching things over, has completely repaired my thoughts about him.  He gets it now.  More importantly, he regrets the way he handled it the first time around and realizes now just how he hurt his hometown.

     

    WITNESS -> QUITNESS -> FORGIVENESS

     

    Welcome Home, LeBron.

     

    Oh, and if we pull off getting KLove and have him, Tristan, Kyrie, LeBron, and Ender.... it's game over, lol.

     

     

     

    2014-07-11 7:25 PM
    in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out

    Bosh snubs Houston and takes a max deal with Miami.  Interesting play, but can't really blame him.  That's a lot of money to turn down, but I'm wondering if Miami will force Wade to take a significant pay cut, or possibly not resign him to keep their salary cap options open down the road for the next free agent classes.  I know Wade was seeking a 4ish year deal, but without James, that makes absolutely no sense now for Miami.  Maybe they give him a 2 year deal?  Not sure who's available in 2016.  it's pretty clear that Miami won't be a legit title contender in 2015.

    2014-07-11 7:39 PM
    in reply to: Jason N

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    Subject: RE: LeBron Opts Out
    Originally posted by Jason N

    Bosh snubs Houston and takes a max deal with Miami.  Interesting play, but can't really blame him.  That's a lot of money to turn down, but I'm wondering if Miami will force Wade to take a significant pay cut, or possibly not resign him to keep their salary cap options open down the road for the next free agent classes.  I know Wade was seeking a 4ish year deal, but without James, that makes absolutely no sense now for Miami.  Maybe they give him a 2 year deal?  Not sure who's available in 2016.  it's pretty clear that Miami won't be a legit title contender in 2015.




    Agreed.

    The interesting news I just saw is that Cleveland's refusing to include Wiggins in any deal for Love.
    It will be interesting to see what Cleveland can offer.

    Even without Love, Cleveland's now clearly the best in the East.
    WITH Love, they'd be the best in the whole league.

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