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2014-08-14 9:12 AM
in reply to: topolina

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Originally posted by topolina

Originally posted by braciole

topolina - not entirely accurate. Depends on the charge, right? This happened in NY? I didn't check but I know the track was close to Watkins Glenn. In NY for 1st degree manslaughter you need to prove intent to cause serious injury or intent to kill + extreme emotional disturbance. For lesser charges you wouldn't.

This comment is limited to the nitpicky legal point above, and expresses no opinion on the judgment or intent of the departed or others involved, the liklihood of charges being filed, or the entertainment value of watching cars turn left for several hours.


Not a point I really want to argue about, but 1st degree manslaughter is not what I mentioned. I mentioned involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide--very different charges. But, in any event, he will probably not be charged. Most DA's don't want to take a case unless they know they can get a conviction on. There are some exceptions, but those are rare.


In NY, all manslaughter is involuntary, including man1. No intent to kill (or intent to kill negated by EED) = involuntary homicide. So where you said above that there is "no criminal intent necessary for involuntary manslaughter", that's overly broad. for man1, you need intent to cause serious injury or intent to kill + EED. Here's NY's statute - - http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0125.20_125.20.html.

I've now watched the video and based on that agree no charges will be filed.


2014-08-14 9:40 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by jford2309

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by jford2309

Question:

Do these races have spotters at them and are thet in communication with the drivers like NASCAR?

And if they did...what difference would it make.  Ward put himself in harms way.  From everything I see in the video, all the drivers, including Stewart took an appropriate line to avoid Ward's wrecked car.  It was Ward who was the one deviating from a predictable line (staying in or near his car) and made his way into the middle of traffic.  I fully believe that if Stewart and the car in front of him knew Ward was out on the track, and decided to drive 10 feet farther inside to avoid him, Ward simply would have chased him another 10 feet farther down the track.

It COULD have made a lot of difference. If Stewart knew the guy was out of his car and someone had told him, then yeah, it COULD have made a big difference.

I like Tony Stewart as a driver, but I can totally see where Stewart would not like some kid yelling and pointing at him in the race and maybe trying to buzz him. I do not think he would ever purposefully try to hit someone, but I can see based on his past where he let his emotions get the best of him. Whether or not that is ever provable is another case but i can totally see it happeneing.

Or you could look at it from the other perspective.

If Ward didn't run down the track towards Stewart's car, do you think that COULD have made a difference?

Can you see how it's possible that Ward let his emotions get the best of him?

 

Yes, it would have made a difference, but my reply was in reply to your "And if they did...what difference would it make." when I asked about spotters and someone being able to tell him that Ward was out of his car and to stay low. I agree that Ward should not have gotten out on the track. And I then radio communication couuld have made a difference, but I also believe Stewart acted on his emotions. I have not heard if this is somethig Ward has done in the past or anything about his racing temperment.

2014-08-14 9:57 AM
in reply to: jford2309

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

It feels like suicide more than manslaughter to me.

The other interesting dynamic is that Tony Stewart owns both Tony Stewart Racing and Stewart-Hass Racing, the latter with drivers Danica Patrick, Kevin Harvick and Kurt Busch. Think about all of the sponsors wrapped into these racers. Remember when Clint Bowyer intentionally spun out last year (with no injuries), many of his sponsors immediately dropped him.  It's going to be super interesting to see what happens on that front. 

2014-08-14 11:29 AM
in reply to: ChineseDemocracy

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by ChrisM

I don't know anything about sprint car racing, but what I've read on the 'net, and it's just what I read, is that some people think that Stewart gunned the engine to teach this guy a lesson, but when you do that in those cars you tends to swing the rear out, which looks like what hit him.  Certainly merits some investigation as that could easily be seen as reckless




That was my first thought. It seems to me the most likely case is that of course the guy who got out of his car gesturing was reeeeeally stupid, BUT, it's not like that type of behavior is unheard of in the racing world after a wreck. In fact, hasn't Stewart himself done hot-headed stuff like throw his helmet at another car or get into a physical confrontation with other drivers? I thought I remembered seeing that on SportsCenter.
To me, he likely wanted to put a little scare into the kid, and it went horribly wrong. Seems to me that's the type of thing that gets "regular joes" prison time.



I am not following - because Tony Stewart is a hot head, the idiot on the race track at night, in black, running at Stewart's car was entitled to do the same because what is good for the goose is good for the gander? sure, the kid can do whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences.

Regarding "gunning" the engine, these cars don't handle like our sedans, SUVs or sports cars, the rev was his only chance to try to steer the car from hitting the knucklehead. Also, much ado is being made at the fact that the car in front of Stewart successfully swerved. how many times have any of us been in a car, or on a bike, and the car or bike in front of us suddenly swerves to miss something and we hit it because the person who swerved was blocking our line of vision. Add to that the fact that this guy ran right at Stewart, not the car in front of him, it is pretty hard to accuse Stewart of purposefully attempting to buzz the KH. that would mean he would have had to have seen him from far off, on a track full of cars, at night, with the guy wearing all black. not likely at all.
2014-08-14 11:53 AM
in reply to: lisac957

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Not sure if you are joking about suicide but these guys are not wired that way.

My take on the whole thing is that this is nothing new.  I have spectated many, many different types of national and local racing events (driven in a few small events).  From the time I was a little boy I have witnessed drivers getting into it with others on and off the track.  It is a part of the culture and always has been.  You can see old NASCAR clips of drivers fighting on and near the track.  It's acceptance reminds me somewhat of fighting in hockey.  While there have been attempts to minimize it through fines and threats of suspension it pretty much continues.

In the racing that I have done in "no contact" events if you did anything like this you would be immediately banned.  But nobody is buying a ticket to see that type of racing and whole the thing is about safety.  You would never think about going onto the track or anywhere near it outside of your car.

IMO, this was a case of unintended consequences stemming from a climate where driver antics and personalities are an integral part of the business.  How else could one justify allowing Danica Patrick to drive?  It is somewhat of a circus.   

2014-08-14 1:55 PM
in reply to: popsracer

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by popsracer

Not sure if you are joking about suicide but these guys are not wired that way.

If I told you someone knowingly/intentionally walked head-on into oncoming traffic on a highway... what would you think?

This guy knew all the risks of getting out of his car on an active track yet still did it. I am not sure what he expected? 



2014-08-14 2:13 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by lisac957

Originally posted by popsracer

Not sure if you are joking about suicide but these guys are not wired that way.

If I told you someone knowingly/intentionally walked head-on into oncoming traffic on a highway... what would you think?

This guy knew all the risks of getting out of his car on an active track yet still did it. I am not sure what he expected? 

First, I don't think he walked head-on into traffic.  He was just outside the line that cars were driving as he made his way down the track.  I think he misjudged exactly where that line was in those last fateful seconds but I do not believe he intended to cross that line.

Second, the track was not active per se but under caution.  Drivers exit their vehicles under caution routinely and there are course workers on the track as well.  I would not consider entering a track that is under caution to be a suicidal activity in and of itself.  Under green flag, maybe.

Just don't really think suicide was a motive.



Edited by popsracer 2014-08-14 2:14 PM
2014-08-14 7:50 PM
in reply to: sheesleeva

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
Originally posted by sheesleeva

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by ChrisM

I don't know anything about sprint car racing, but what I've read on the 'net, and it's just what I read, is that some people think that Stewart gunned the engine to teach this guy a lesson, but when you do that in those cars you tends to swing the rear out, which looks like what hit him.  Certainly merits some investigation as that could easily be seen as reckless




That was my first thought. It seems to me the most likely case is that of course the guy who got out of his car gesturing was reeeeeally stupid, BUT, it's not like that type of behavior is unheard of in the racing world after a wreck. In fact, hasn't Stewart himself done hot-headed stuff like throw his helmet at another car or get into a physical confrontation with other drivers? I thought I remembered seeing that on SportsCenter.
To me, he likely wanted to put a little scare into the kid, and it went horribly wrong. Seems to me that's the type of thing that gets "regular joes" prison time.



I am not following - because Tony Stewart is a hot head, the idiot on the race track at night, in black, running at Stewart's car was entitled to do the same because what is good for the goose is good for the gander? sure, the kid can do whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences.

Regarding "gunning" the engine, these cars don't handle like our sedans, SUVs or sports cars, the rev was his only chance to try to steer the car from hitting the knucklehead. Also, much ado is being made at the fact that the car in front of Stewart successfully swerved. how many times have any of us been in a car, or on a bike, and the car or bike in front of us suddenly swerves to miss something and we hit it because the person who swerved was blocking our line of vision. Add to that the fact that this guy ran right at Stewart, not the car in front of him, it is pretty hard to accuse Stewart of purposefully attempting to buzz the KH. that would mean he would have had to have seen him from far off, on a track full of cars, at night, with the guy wearing all black. not likely at all.


Stewart's a skilled, experienced driver. He just tapped the kid into the wall ending the kid's race prior to the fatal impact on the next lap. Under a yellow flag there's little doubt in my mind Stewart was aware of where the kid was. Did he hit him intentionally? I definitely don't think so. It was an unfortunate accident. I do believe Stewart didn't mind buzzing close to the kid. Kid got too close. That's all she wrote. Moral of story, don't be a hothead.



2014-08-15 6:42 AM
in reply to: #5037807

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?
how fast are these cars going under caution? and is one lap enough time to brake down to that speed (would Stewart have been gotten down to caution speed yet after a lap)?
2014-08-19 12:43 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Is this what Manslaughter Looks Like?

Originally posted by braciole how fast are these cars going under caution? and is one lap enough time to brake down to that speed (would Stewart have been gotten down to caution speed yet after a lap)?

They do not have a transmission so you can only go so slow before they will stall.  He was at caution lap speed.

He just tapped the kid into the wall ending the kid's race prior to the fatal impact on the next lap

Actually he never hit Ward's car.  Ward had the high line and Stewart had racing position.  Ward ran out of room and went into the wall.  Stewart did nothing wrong in that sense.

I grew up as part of a racing family.  While I never raced I've sat in and taken test laps in these cars.  These cars have NO visibility on the right side. You can also turn the steering wheel and they will NOT turn if you do not give them gas.  Without throttle they just skid along. When Stewart saw Ward he likely gassed it to allow him to try to turn away.

But all of this is really irrelevant considering Ward was taking his life into his own hands by trying to get that close to the cars.



Edited by TriRSquared 2014-08-19 12:44 PM
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