Swim stroke rate (Page 4)
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2014-12-11 11:41 AM in reply to: marcag |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain USAT uses a 200/800 swim test for a benchmark for DL athletes. Both swam all out with a 1 minute rest between. Then sometime in the next week you swim a 100 all out. The benchmarks are different for different levels....but it's a good measure of swim speed and predicted speed at race distances up to 1500M. that makes sense. With the 200/800 they can assess a person's ability to hold a pace. With the 100 they can measure their raw speed. My 200 and 800 times are much better predictors of my 1500 and 1900m times. My 100 time puts me at a level I am not. Swimsmooth with their CSS do something similar, but they use a 200 and 400 and calculate a critical pace. I usually swim 50, 100 and the 400 at swim meets when the 800 and 1500 are not available. Does USAT use the 200/800 to calculate CSS (or something like it) or as a predictor for how the race goes? Fast start the first couple hundred and then hang on/cruise the rest in the pack (sort of). May not be a big deal, but isn't quite the same thing. |
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2014-12-11 11:43 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
New user 230 penticton | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate it depends, he work with long course athletes but he is also the most successful short course coach in the history also. He as produce both world class olympic swimmers and triathlete. everyone had a different preparation but the commune element was that been fast in open water/triathlon is different from been fast in the pool. This mean different training/approach/preparation. Big engine is needed at the ITU level. no douth. at ironman and long course, not as important, you can make very fast athlete on hard work and dedication. |
2014-12-11 12:10 PM in reply to: jonnyo |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2014-12-11 12:12 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain USAT uses a 200/800 swim test for a benchmark for DL athletes. Both swam all out with a 1 minute rest between. Then sometime in the next week you swim a 100 all out. The benchmarks are different for different levels....but it's a good measure of swim speed and predicted speed at race distances up to 1500M. that makes sense. With the 200/800 they can assess a person's ability to hold a pace. With the 100 they can measure their raw speed. My 200 and 800 times are much better predictors of my 1500 and 1900m times. My 100 time puts me at a level I am not. Swimsmooth with their CSS do something similar, but they use a 200 and 400 and calculate a critical pace. I usually swim 50, 100 and the 400 at swim meets when the 800 and 1500 are not available. Does USAT use the 200/800 to calculate CSS (or something like it) or as a predictor for how the race goes? Fast start the first couple hundred and then hang on/cruise the rest in the pack (sort of). May not be a big deal, but isn't quite the same thing. I don't know. I just know they use the formula for the Jr. Elite program, the collegiate recruitment program, and the Elite program. I also know that if done properly.....truly all out......it's a killer. |
2014-12-12 8:35 AM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by JohnnyKay My guess is that there generally aren't enough adults who really want to put in the time necessary to learn to swim fast. It's not something you can easily do on 2-3, maybe 1-hr, swims per week. For those that want to commit, I'm sure you can find a coach (though might not be in a convenient location or at a convenient time). But probably not a "program" because there aren't a critical mass of such adults in most locales. Precisely - the best swimmers that I know are swimming ~15-20 hours per week right now and have been swimming competitively for about ten years. Granted they've built up to those hours but most triathletes are lucky to hit the basic hours of a beginning swimmer (about 3 hours per week) so they are unlikely to ever swim fast. If you took someone who wanted to learn how to swim and they committed to swimming like a swim team kid, they could likely get much closer than a typical triathlete will ever achieve. Shane |
2014-12-12 9:53 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by JohnnyKay My guess is that there generally aren't enough adults who really want to put in the time necessary to learn to swim fast. It's not something you can easily do on 2-3, maybe 1-hr, swims per week. Precisely - the best swimmers that I know are swimming ~15-20 hours per week right now and have been swimming competitively for about ten years. Granted they've built up to those hours but most triathletes are lucky to hit the basic hours of a beginning swimmer (about 3 hours per week) so they are unlikely to ever swim fast. If you took someone who wanted to learn how to swim and they committed to swimming like a swim team kid, they could likely get much closer than a typical triathlete will ever achieve. Shane For those that want to commit, I'm sure you can find a coach (though might not be in a convenient location or at a convenient time). But probably not a "program" because there aren't a critical mass of such adults in most locales. Agreed...but they aren't just the best swimmers. In many cases these days they are the fastest triathletes. (at least for sprint/Oly) So......why can't adults swim MUCH more and run/bike less (timewise) but up the intensity, like I see the fastest Jrs. in the country do? The swimming, if done properly, builds an incredible engine, as you know.....and again, if done properly there are aspects of some swim workouts that appear to me to have great benefits to running/cycling (not take the place of it) such as hip and core development from kick sets, etc. What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? |
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2014-12-12 10:07 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by JohnnyKay My guess is that there generally aren't enough adults who really want to put in the time necessary to learn to swim fast. It's not something you can easily do on 2-3, maybe 1-hr, swims per week. Precisely - the best swimmers that I know are swimming ~15-20 hours per week right now and have been swimming competitively for about ten years. Granted they've built up to those hours but most triathletes are lucky to hit the basic hours of a beginning swimmer (about 3 hours per week) so they are unlikely to ever swim fast. If you took someone who wanted to learn how to swim and they committed to swimming like a swim team kid, they could likely get much closer than a typical triathlete will ever achieve. Shane For those that want to commit, I'm sure you can find a coach (though might not be in a convenient location or at a convenient time). But probably not a "program" because there aren't a critical mass of such adults in most locales. Agreed...but they aren't just the best swimmers. In many cases these days they are the fastest triathletes. (at least for sprint/Oly) So......why can't adults swim MUCH more and run/bike less (timewise) but up the intensity, like I see the fastest Jrs. in the country do? The swimming, if done properly, builds an incredible engine, as you know.....and again, if done properly there are aspects of some swim workouts that appear to me to have great benefits to running/cycling (not take the place of it) such as hip and core development from kick sets, etc. What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? I don't think many people see the ROI on improving their swim that much. They think they would have to spend a ton of time to cut 1 minute off their sprint swim time and for some reason that 1 minute isn't as important as the 1 minute they could cut off their 5k time. In the end, they might cut 1 minute off their swim time and more off the bike and run by not being hosed coming out of the water. Swimming more often is also a bigger time suck. A 1 hour swim typically kills 2 hours of my day, 20 mins to drive to the pool, 10 to get ready (including standing on the edge of the pool for 5 not wanting to get in the cold water ), then swim for an hour, 10 to shower and dress and 20 back home. |
2014-12-12 10:56 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? First, you have to have talent (genetics) to achieve those kinds of times. I'm sure there are some adults who could thrive by training in a similar fashio to what you see. But that is a small subset of adult triathletes who have a real desire to be long-term competitive and willing to commit to a dedicated swimming program for several years in order to get there. And have a lot of time to commit to training to begin with. It's just not the profile of many AG triathletes, so a small subset. And, for many of them, there are also usually other ways to get to their goals. |
2014-12-12 11:06 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain Agreed...but they aren't just the best swimmers. In many cases these days they are the fastest triathletes. (at least for sprint/Oly) So......why can't adults swim MUCH more and run/bike less (timewise) but up the intensity, like I see the fastest Jrs. in the country do? The swimming, if done properly, builds an incredible engine, as you know.....and again, if done properly there are aspects of some swim workouts that appear to me to have great benefits to running/cycling (not take the place of it) such as hip and core development from kick sets, etc. Adults can swim much more, however there are reasons why they don't; off the top of my head: 1) Family 2) Work 3) Pool hours 4) Pool location 5) Time it takes to swim for an hour is more than an hour 6) They get bored 7) They don't want to swim that much 8) The pool is too cold 9) The pool is too hot 10) They think (or have been told) swimming more won't help much 11) They hate swimming 12) Etc.... Beyond that, since there aren't a large number of adults who are looking for this type of program, it would be largely uncoached or be quite expensive in order to have a quality coach on deck for a small number of people. As for increasing intensity; this is what many triathletes do or should be doing on the bike. Ride lots, mostly hard, sometimes easy. However, for the run, unless one is gifted with great biomechanics and genetics, doing the same thing for running is often a recipie for injury. As a load bearing sport, it is the one that should be approached from the lots of easy running to support some occasional harder efforts. What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? You don't have to be young but you need at least some talent for the sport (as well as lots of training); most age group triathletes do not have the benefit of superior genetics to help them so following an elite style training plan is unlikely right for them. There is a reason why one doesn't simply take an elite program and reduce it by x% for volume to create an appropriate program for an AGer. Shane |
2014-12-12 11:09 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by axteraa I don't think many people see the ROI on improving their swim that much. They think they would have to spend a ton of time to cut 1 minute off their sprint swim time and for some reason that 1 minute isn't as important as the 1 minute they could cut off their 5k time. In the end, they might cut 1 minute off their swim time and more off the bike and run by not being hosed coming out of the water. An oft overlooked benefit of swimming more; when someone is in better swim shape, they can swim hard, get on the bike with faster (generally) athletes, then recover from the swim more quickly to bike and run faster. Swimming more often is also a bigger time suck. A 1 hour swim typically kills 2 hours of my day, 20 mins to drive to the pool, 10 to get ready (including standing on the edge of the pool for 5 not wanting to get in the cold water ), then swim for an hour, 10 to shower and dress and 20 back home. Time for an Endless Pool? Shane |
2014-12-12 11:09 AM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by Left Brain What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? First, you have to have talent (genetics) to achieve those kinds of times. I'm sure there are some adults who could thrive by training in a similar fashio to what you see. But that is a small subset of adult triathletes who have a real desire to be long-term competitive and willing to commit to a dedicated swimming program for several years in order to get there. And have a lot of time to commit to training to begin with. It's just not the profile of many AG triathletes, so a small subset. And, for many of them, there are also usually other ways to get to their goals. Sure....I understand that and I agree. But the goal is always improvement in times (at least for those doing triathlon as something more than a bucket item)....so I'm trying to look at another way other than what is normally prescribed in light of the fact that most people who do triathlon are abysmal swimmers compared to people who have fast triathlons. I can tell you that I am amazed at what I see......because it does go against what I had seen, and thought I knew, about training for triathlons over the past 30 years since I first did a triathlon. You could not have convinced me that a swim based training regimen would be as successful as I've watched it be......and was pretty resistant when I was pushed that way with my kid.....but the results, and not just with him but others doing the same work, have been pretty startling. |
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2014-12-12 11:10 AM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by Left Brain What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? First, you have to have talent (genetics) to achieve those kinds of times. I'm sure there are some adults who could thrive by training in a similar fashio to what you see. But that is a small subset of adult triathletes who have a real desire to be long-term competitive and willing to commit to a dedicated swimming program for several years in order to get there. And have a lot of time to commit to training to begin with. It's just not the profile of many AG triathletes, so a small subset. And, for many of them, there are also usually other ways to get to their goals. And not to forget that the relative importance of the 3 disciplines is completely different in non drafting and drafting triathletes. It's true for short course and t gets worst when you go long distance. |
2014-12-12 11:11 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by Left Brain What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? First, you have to have talent (genetics) to achieve those kinds of times. I'm sure there are some adults who could thrive by training in a similar fashio to what you see. But that is a small subset of adult triathletes who have a real desire to be long-term competitive and willing to commit to a dedicated swimming program for several years in order to get there. And have a lot of time to commit to training to begin with. It's just not the profile of many AG triathletes, so a small subset. And, for many of them, there are also usually other ways to get to their goals. Sure....I understand that and I agree. But the goal is always improvement in times (at least for those doing triathlon as something more than a bucket item)....so I'm trying to look at another way other than what is normally prescribed in light of the fact that most people who do triathlon are abysmal swimmers compared to people who have fast triathlons. I can tell you that I am amazed at what I see......because it does go against what I had seen, and thought I knew, about training for triathlons over the past 30 years since I first did a triathlon. You could not have convinced me that a swim based training regimen would be as successful as I've watched it be......and was pretty resistant when I was pushed that way with my kid.....but the results, and not just with him but others doing the same work, have been pretty startling. So does this mean we are going to see you swimming a lot and improving your times ? |
2014-12-12 11:18 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by gsmacleod Time for an Endless Pool? Shane I wish! Those things aren't cheap. |
2014-12-12 11:18 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by gsmacleod Time for an Endless Pool? Shane I wish! Those things aren't cheap. I swam an entire season in one. Never again! |
2014-12-12 11:20 AM in reply to: marcag |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by axteraa I swam an entire season in one. Never again! Originally posted by gsmacleod Time for an Endless Pool? Shane I wish! Those things aren't cheap. Needs a glass bottom. Then the TV will work. Put Shark Week on repeat. |
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2014-12-12 11:20 AM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by axteraa I swam an entire season in one. Never again! Originally posted by gsmacleod Time for an Endless Pool? Shane I wish! Those things aren't cheap. but what if it was in your basement providing as easy access as the trainer? |
2014-12-12 11:21 AM in reply to: marcag |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag I swam an entire season in one. Never again! Probably made the black line look fantastic when you got back in the pool! Shane |
2014-12-12 11:24 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by axteraa I wish! Those things aren't cheap. Hot tub/endless pool then? http://www.arcticspas.ca/our-products/all-weather-pools-swim-spas/ Shane |
2014-12-12 12:30 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by axteraa I swam an entire season in one. Never again! Originally posted by gsmacleod Time for an Endless Pool? Shane I wish! Those things aren't cheap. but what if it was in your basement providing as easy access as the trainer? I would have to do more research but I would consider a Vasa ergo trainer before and endless pool. |
2014-12-12 12:41 PM in reply to: marcag |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by gsmacleod Time for an Endless Pool? Shane I wish! Those things aren't cheap. I swam an entire season in one. Never again! Yeah......I couldn't see myself swimming in one of those long. I was going to do some threshold stuff today to figure my current swim fitness, but I chickened out. I was still feeling a little tired after my little snow run yesterday. Maybe next week. |
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2014-12-12 12:47 PM in reply to: BrotherTri |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by BrotherTri Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by gsmacleod Time for an Endless Pool? Shane I wish! Those things aren't cheap. I swam an entire season in one. Never again! Yeah......I couldn't see myself swimming in one of those long. I was going to do some threshold stuff today to figure my current swim fitness, but I chickened out. I was still feeling a little tired after my little snow run yesterday. Maybe next week. You'll never get to 1:12/100m if you procrastinate. After all that's the "gold standard" for fast old guys :-) |
2014-12-12 12:49 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain So does this mean we are going to see you swimming a lot and improving your times ? Originally posted by JohnnyKay Originally posted by Left Brain What I see are people who spend 60% of their workout time in the water and the rest split between cycling and running. The results are sub 1 hour sprint times and 2 hour Oly times. Do you have to be young to achieve fast times with those types of workouts? Why does it work so well for them but is mostly considered unworkable for any triathlete? First, you have to have talent (genetics) to achieve those kinds of times. I'm sure there are some adults who could thrive by training in a similar fashio to what you see. But that is a small subset of adult triathletes who have a real desire to be long-term competitive and willing to commit to a dedicated swimming program for several years in order to get there. And have a lot of time to commit to training to begin with. It's just not the profile of many AG triathletes, so a small subset. And, for many of them, there are also usually other ways to get to their goals. Sure....I understand that and I agree. But the goal is always improvement in times (at least for those doing triathlon as something more than a bucket item)....so I'm trying to look at another way other than what is normally prescribed in light of the fact that most people who do triathlon are abysmal swimmers compared to people who have fast triathlons. I can tell you that I am amazed at what I see......because it does go against what I had seen, and thought I knew, about training for triathlons over the past 30 years since I first did a triathlon. You could not have convinced me that a swim based training regimen would be as successful as I've watched it be......and was pretty resistant when I was pushed that way with my kid.....but the results, and not just with him but others doing the same work, have been pretty startling. Probably not until after elbow surgery next month. I've told you 100 times.......I don't give a rats arse about my triathlon ambitions anymore. My days of running fast and doing fast triathlon are long gone. What I have now is the ability to help and support young people do triathlon. Some to a very high level, some to a level of fun and fitness. I'm good with it.....and the more I understand what the fast people do and how it can or can't be applied the better I can help. You need to get over it......you're not exactly tearing up the road anymore at your age. LOL |
2014-12-12 12:54 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by Left Brain I know, that's why I want you in the sport. You make me look faster |
2014-12-12 1:47 PM in reply to: marcag |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Swim stroke rate Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by Left Brain ......you're not exactly tearing up the road anymore at your age. LOL I know, that's why I want you in the sport. You make me look faster haha, careful, his son might start going to races with him and then make you look really slow |
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