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2015-12-18 8:50 AM


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Subject: How to Sub 12
Here's the plan: 1.25 swim, 6.5 bike, 4 run. That leaves 15 mins for transitions and will put me right around 12 hrs.
My question is, if those are my target numbers, what should I realistically be able to do for training? Should I be able to run a 3.25 he marathon by itself in order to do a 4 hr during an ironman? What about the bike? Thanks for your input.


2015-12-18 9:38 AM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12
Originally posted by ajwestlund

Here's the plan: 1.25 swim, 6.5 bike, 4 run. That leaves 15 mins for transitions and will put me right around 12 hrs.
My question is, if those are my target numbers, what should I realistically be able to do for training? Should I be able to run a 3.25 he marathon by itself in order to do a 4 hr during an ironman? What about the bike? Thanks for your input.


That's not a plan, that's a goal.

Looking at what you have I assume you have a good run? and you are weak on the bike and the swim?
To run a 4hr you should be able to do a stand alone Marathon in at least 3:45 or faster.
2 minutes in each transition may not be enough time.
Bike - that's 17 1/2 mph avg- most people who can run a 3:45 M can bike that fast

putting all 3 together is not as easy as it sounds.
2015-12-18 9:52 AM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12
This has been my goal now for 3 Ironman seasons and I have yet to go sub 12:30 (PB is 12:30:12).

I have the swim down to 1:10. My bike is 6:30 to 6:45. The wheels fall off during the run. My best run is 4:16. I spend way to much time in transitions as well. Usually 15-20 minutes combined for T1+T2. I do a full change in both transitions so I take time in both. My PB for a stand alone marathon is 3:10. I am 46.

I have done IM Wisconsin, Whistler, Coeur d'Alene, Muskoka and Lake Tahoe. Not exactly easy courses, but I think I should be able to go sub 12.

I have yet to have all the pieces fall into place. But, I keep plugging away. It keeps me motivated to improve year after year as I get older.
2015-12-18 10:01 AM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12
years ago, there was a rule of thumb that said take your HIM time, double it and add an hour. Does that fit where you are today? or can be during your training up to that point?

2015-12-18 10:04 AM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12

As Mike Tyson quoted "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

IM is similar to getting punched in the face. My first IM goal was to finish less than 12 hours (Louisville). I was on schedule until stomach issues hit me on run. I finished just over 14 hours which included two IVs after the race. My second IM (B2B) was a little over 12 hours after learning some lessons from the first (and the heat was not as bad helped).

Hard for us to answer without more information. Other factors could impact time as well. Do you plan to stop any during race for restroom, special needs bags, etc. Bike issues, flats, chain coming off, wreck, etc

Good luck on goal.


2015-12-18 10:04 AM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12
What's your fitness like now?

What's your training like now?

Have you done any bike or swim standalone time trials that we can compare?

Have you done an IM or half IM before?

If you run a standalone 3:25 marathon, a 4 hour IM marathon should be no problem if you've paced correctly, and I'd get working on the limiters, that swim and bike, based on your goal times, plus being a better cyclist will leave you with more in the tank on the run, even if you rode at the same speed.

I just did my first IM this year, I was focused on shorter distance run and bike time trials, but only ramped up the swim late.

Doing a 1:40 HM, I should be capable of around a 3:30 HM, but hadn't trained fully for the distance.

Signing up 6 weeks out and doing a wort of reverse build, that landed me at about a 1:10 swim, just under a 6 hour bike, a 5:45 bike, keeping fully to my goal zones, but after the half-way mark on the marathon the stomach tightened up, causing me to miss 3 or 4 aid stations, and lose a LOT of time on the back half of the marathon despite already slowing things down.

Still managed to squeeze in a few mins under 12 hours though.



2015-12-18 10:37 AM
in reply to: DeVinci13

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12

Originally posted by DeVinci13 This has been my goal now for 3 Ironman seasons and I have yet to go sub 12:30 (PB is 12:30:12). I have the swim down to 1:10. My bike is 6:30 to 6:45. The wheels fall off during the run. My best run is 4:16. I spend way to much time in transitions as well. Usually 15-20 minutes combined for T1+T2. I do a full change in both transitions so I take time in both. My PB for a stand alone marathon is 3:10. I am 46. I have done IM Wisconsin, Whistler, Coeur d'Alene, Muskoka and Lake Tahoe. Not exactly easy courses, but I think I should be able to go sub 12. I have yet to have all the pieces fall into place. But, I keep plugging away. It keeps me motivated to improve year after year as I get older.

Fix your swim and your bike.  With a 3:10 marathon, there is no way you should not be able to get well under 12 if you focus on it.

2015-12-18 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by DeVinci13 This has been my goal now for 3 Ironman seasons and I have yet to go sub 12:30 (PB is 12:30:12). I have the swim down to 1:10. My bike is 6:30 to 6:45. The wheels fall off during the run. My best run is 4:16. I spend way to much time in transitions as well. Usually 15-20 minutes combined for T1+T2. I do a full change in both transitions so I take time in both. My PB for a stand alone marathon is 3:10. I am 46. I have done IM Wisconsin, Whistler, Coeur d'Alene, Muskoka and Lake Tahoe. Not exactly easy courses, but I think I should be able to go sub 12. I have yet to have all the pieces fall into place. But, I keep plugging away. It keeps me motivated to improve year after year as I get older.

Fix your swim and your bike.  With a 3:10 marathon, there is no way you should not be able to get well under 12 if you focus on it.

X2.  Your bike fitness is inadequate, so that's the lowest hanging fruit.  Plus, work on your race execution.  A 3:10 open marathon and 4:16 IM run implies that you're over biking your fitness (most likely) or you simply didn't have enough training volume overall (2nd most likely).

For the OP, what are your recent HIM times?

 



Edited by TriMyBest 2015-12-18 11:30 AM
2015-12-18 2:05 PM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12

Originally posted by ajwestlund Here's the plan: 1.25 swim, 6.5 bike, 4 run. That leaves 15 mins for transitions and will put me right around 12 hrs. My question is, if those are my target numbers, what should I realistically be able to do for training? Should I be able to run a 3.25 he marathon by itself in order to do a 4 hr during an ironman? What about the bike? Thanks for your input.

The majority of people who go around 12 hours are not running 4 hour marathons.  They're more like in the 4:15-4:30 range, but they bike faster.  There are some people who bike 6:30 and still run 4:00, but you likely need a ton of run fitness to do so.  I'd guess something closer to a 3:10 open marathon.  The reason being is that if you are swimming and biking for 8 hours before you start your IM run...that's a lot of energy you expended and the difference between your open marathon and IM marathon will be greater.

If you were a better swimmer and biker, and could start the IM marathon at the 7:15 mark...that's 45 less minutes of energy expenditure compared to the example above.  So you may be able to pull off a 4 hour IM run even if your open marathon is 3:20.

 

2015-12-18 2:15 PM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12

This is what one of the on-line pace predictors gives.  It suggest that you need a 19:51 race time in a 5K to be a 4:00 runner in an IM.  You can also look at the paces for shorter triathlons.  If you are faster than the times listed your goal is going to be realistic for an IM, if not don't give up on the goal just work towards it knowing that it is above your current level and your will have to improve to get there.

2015-12-18 2:48 PM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12
Originally posted by ajwestlund

Here's the plan: 1.25 swim, 6.5 bike, 4 run. That leaves 15 mins for transitions and will put me right around 12 hrs.
My question is, if those are my target numbers, what should I realistically be able to do for training? Should I be able to run a 3.25 he marathon by itself in order to do a 4 hr during an ironman? What about the bike? Thanks for your input.


I think you've got a lot of good responses so far, but in particular...that's your GOAL.

How & Why did you choose these numbers?
Why is this total time important to you?
What will it mean to you if you can do this time?
What's your tri background? How many years, what kind of races?
What's your current level of fitness & training?
What kind of stand alone racing have you done in the past?
How many hours do you currently train?
What else consumes your waking hours? (job, family, friends, social life, other sports...)
How many years are you willing to dedicate to triathlon to meet your goal?
Are you willing to focus on the process of building endurance and speed and not look at your race outcomes as validating events? In otehrwords...does training satisfy you, or only results?

I know none of those are what you asked, but you have answers to the "what target numbers" already in terms of pacing. There are lots of additional considerations.

Soem people can do a 10 hour IM their first time attempting it, others train for years and never go sub 15.




2015-12-18 3:25 PM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12
Bike, Bike and Bike. Work on your bike split. Invest in Trainerroad and work your butt off getting your bike time down. You should be able to go 5:45-6 hrs on the bike with your run time. Also, get a trisuit and work on your transitions. You admitted that you take your time. That's an easy 10 minutes right there.
2015-12-19 11:14 AM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by ajwestlund Here's the plan: 1.25 swim, 6.5 bike, 4 run. That leaves 15 mins for transitions and will put me right around 12 hrs. My question is, if those are my target numbers, what should I realistically be able to do for training? Should I be able to run a 3.25 he marathon by itself in order to do a 4 hr during an ironman? What about the bike? Thanks for your input.

The majority of people who go around 12 hours are not running 4 hour marathons.  They're more like in the 4:15-4:30 range, but they bike faster.  There are some people who bike 6:30 and still run 4:00, but you likely need a ton of run fitness to do so.  I'd guess something closer to a 3:10 open marathon.  The reason being is that if you are swimming and biking for 8 hours before you start your IM run...that's a lot of energy you expended and the difference between your open marathon and IM marathon will be greater.

If you were a better swimmer and biker, and could start the IM marathon at the 7:15 mark...that's 45 less minutes of energy expenditure compared to the example above.  So you may be able to pull off a 4 hour IM run even if your open marathon is 3:20.

 

Agree 100%.  I went 11.5 hrs last October and I was bike focused all summer.  I did that at a cost of not fully building up for the marathon.  It's really easy to bike too hard during an IM.  And it's hard / nearly impossible to overtrain on the bike.  Get that time down in the 5:30 range on a flat course and you'll be able to loaf the marathon and still hit your goal.

Side note: to the split calculator I saw in this thread: if you're a MOP swimmer and male, plan on a slower T1 in a WTC IM event.  I've done under 3 mins in T2 easily, T1 not so much.

2015-12-19 6:58 PM
in reply to: ajwestlund

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12

Originally posted by ajwestlund Here's the plan: 1.25 swim, 6.5 bike, 4 run. That leaves 15 mins for transitions and will put me right around 12 hrs. My question is, if those are my target numbers, what should I realistically be able to do for training? Should I be able to run a 3.25 he marathon by itself in order to do a 4 hr during an ironman? What about the bike? Thanks for your input.

1:25 swimmers and 6:30 cyclist don't typically run a 4:00 IM marathon.  My guess is that a typical 1:25 swimmer + 6:30 cyclist does the marathon in 4:30-5:00.

2015-12-22 11:08 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: How to Sub 12
I'll chime in. First IM I was: 1:21 swim, 5:55 bike, and 4:01 run. My swim fitness then was about 1:40-1:45/100yd, biked a lot (no PM back then...~19-20 mph ish on 80-120m flat rides), and could run a stand alone marathon in 3:30.

2nd IM (year later on harder course):
1:15 swim, 5:35 bike, and 3:55 run. Swim was about the same but closer to 1:40/100 yd, FTP was at 265ish, and I ran + PR'ed a full marathon 2 week after this IM in 3:21.

These are 30-60 minutes above your goal, so it might give you something to at least base some numbers on. None of my IM times are amazing but they are semi close to my standalone times. I'm ok/decent in the sports but I excel in putting it all together. Every workout I do is a "brick" and I think that helps me with my endurance. My "brick" workouts may have 10-20 minutes rest if I'm driving to a lake after a swim or to home to bike but I try to do a real bike/run brick 2x a week after I'm past the base period.
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