General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Tumble turns and kicking off the wall Rss Feed  
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2016-12-01 6:28 PM

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Subject: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

Over the last few months I have decided to omit tumble turns and kicking off the wall.  I have pretty much kept this consistent  as to not skew my swim times.  Occasionally I will still do tumble turns or kick off the wall and when i do, I do it for the whole session.

Reason for not tumble turning or kicking, is have it in my mind that I am getting slightly better or maybe truer swim and I have no walls when i do open water swims.  By not doing these, i realize that my swim splits are not a sure reflection as i loose time on each turn.  But at least they are consistent throughout the session.

Any thoughts on whether to tumble turn and kick off the wall?  Or maybe do one and not the other?

 

Thanks

 

Tom



2016-12-01 9:11 PM
in reply to: #5206591

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
If you can do tumble(flip) turns then you should. But if you can't do them they aren't a skill that will make or break a open water swim. Most folks, myself included, get a big breath on the open turn that helps quite a bit. I feel flip turns would actually simulate open water slightly better as there isn't a small rest.

2016-12-01 11:27 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
Additionally, developing and holding a good flipturn is going to improve your streamlining during normal swimming as well.

I don't take short stops every 25m in open water, don't plan on doing it in the pool :p
2016-12-02 8:46 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

Originally posted by thomas.hands

Any thoughts on whether to tumble turn and kick off the wall?  Or maybe do one and not the other?

Thanks

 Tom

If you want to be a fast swimmer you need to train like swimmers train.  Swimmers flip turn and kick off the wall.  End of discussion.

(Edited because I can't spell).



Edited by k9car363 2016-12-02 8:47 PM
2016-12-02 9:37 PM
in reply to: thomas.hands

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
While I can think of a few possible arguments for not spending a lot of time learning flip turns if you don't already know how (sure, they help with streamlining, but there are other ways to work on that and other possible uses of a beginner's time, and, of course, one doesn't, or shouldn't, "flip" in open water), I cannot think of any arguments for not doing flip turns if you already know how! For me, it would really disrupt my swim rhyth to not flip or kick off the wall. Normally, the only time I don't "flip" is if I'm doing strokes where one doesn't (fly or breast stroke), or occasionally if an injury or low back tightness (happens sometimes with cold water in early AM) is making it difficult or painful to flip, or if I'm swimming in a really shallow pool where it's not safe. Also occasionally will do open turns if I don't trust the other person/people in a shared lane to stay on their side or circle swim correctly--I don't want to come off a flip turn into another swimmer!
2016-12-03 7:16 AM
in reply to: thomas.hands

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

Trying to rationalize open turns like this is a great example of how to outthink oneself.



2016-12-03 8:30 AM
in reply to: thomas.hands

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
I've trained with flip turns, open turns, and not touching the wall. IMO, I don't think that any of the 3 is necessarily better for triathlon as it relates to OWS. The biggest impact will be what you do in the 25 yards or so between the ends of the pool. I'd say do whatever YOU feel will help the most and that will probably work best. Best of Luck!
2016-12-03 4:55 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

Originally posted by brigby1

Trying to rationalize open turns like this is a great example of how to outthink oneself.

 

Yup

2016-12-03 5:13 PM
in reply to: thomas.hands


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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

Definitely DO the tumble turn. (flip turn)

It's not just because 'all the cool kids (swimmers)' do it. 

The hard reality is that unless you're already a very good swimmer, with open turns with no flip, you are giving yourself a small rest at each wall. Even though it might feel like 0.1 seconds to you, in reality for most adult-onset swimmers, it's close to an entire second 'rest stop' compared to a good flip turn. 

In a 25yd pool, that's 4 second/100 added rest, which is almost an entire different level of swimming performance once you're past beginner level. I'm not exaggerating - and this extra rest is the real reason a lot of adult-onset swimmers say the flip turns leave them 'winded' - they're missing those rest stops! 

Once you really get good at those flip turns, and see firsthand how much smoother and how much less rest you get at that wall, then you can talk about going back to open turns if you still prefer them.

2016-12-03 9:53 PM
in reply to: thomas.hands

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
Sandbagging turns means you are resting more during a given interval as opposed to at the end like you are supposed to.

You dont see 10 k open water swimmers training this way.. .
2016-12-04 8:46 AM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
Originally posted by Nick B
  • .. flip turns would actually simulate open water slightly better as there isn't a small rest.

  • This


    2016-12-04 10:08 PM
    in reply to: Oysterboy

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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
    Some of the guys I see I would call it a big rest... 2 second/25m is pretty big.
    2016-12-05 4:53 AM
    in reply to: simpsonbo

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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

    Thank you all for your thoughts.

    Being able to do flip turns is not the issue.  I was thinking how there are no walls in OWS then not flipping and kicking off the wall would be a bit more realistic.  I have to work a bit harder to get my times to the same as if i was doing flip turns and kicking off the wall.  I agree there is a rest period and it is more pronounce that kicking and flipping but at the same time I have to swim harder to get back up to speed.  Sort of like swimming in a pack.

    Thanks again for your input. 

    2016-12-05 10:38 AM
    in reply to: 0

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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

    Originally posted by thomas.hands

    Thank you all for your thoughts.

    Being able to do flip turns is not the issue.  I was thinking how there are no walls in OWS then not flipping and kicking off the wall would be a bit more realistic.  I have to work a bit harder to get my times to the same as if i was doing flip turns and kicking off the wall.  I agree there is a rest period and it is more pronounce that kicking and flipping but at the same time I have to swim harder to get back up to speed.  Sort of like swimming in a pack.

    Thanks again for your input. 

    And, how would stopping and turning without touching the wall be more like ows?    That's not done in ows either.

    Instead of trying to mimic ows during pool sessions, train to become a better swimmer in general.  That more or less means training like a swimmer - intervals, not continuous swimming; quick turns (flip, or open if you don't know how yet) with a good streamlined push off without resting; focusing on a combination of technique and effort in every session, etc.

    Open water skills are developed during ows sessions.

     



    Edited by TriMyBest 2016-12-05 10:40 AM
    2016-12-05 9:25 PM
    in reply to: TriMyBest


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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
    Originally posted by TriMyBest

    Originally posted by thomas.hands

    Thank you all for your thoughts.

    Being able to do flip turns is not the issue.  I was thinking how there are no walls in OWS then not flipping and kicking off the wall would be a bit more realistic.  I have to work a bit harder to get my times to the same as if i was doing flip turns and kicking off the wall.  I agree there is a rest period and it is more pronounce that kicking and flipping but at the same time I have to swim harder to get back up to speed.  Sort of like swimming in a pack.

    Thanks again for your input. 

    And, how would stopping and turning without touching the wall be more like ows?    That's not done in ows either.

    Instead of trying to mimic ows during pool sessions, train to become a better swimmer in general.  That more or less means training like a swimmer - intervals, not continuous swimming; quick turns (flip, or open if you don't know how yet) with a good streamlined push off without resting; focusing on a combination of technique and effort in every session, etc.

    Open water skills are developed during ows sessions.

     




    Yup this.
    2016-12-05 9:27 PM
    in reply to: thomas.hands


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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
    Originally posted by thomas.hands

    Thank you all for your thoughts.

    Being able to do flip turns is not the issue.  I was thinking how there are no walls in OWS then not flipping and kicking off the wall would be a bit more realistic.  I have to work a bit harder to get my times to the same as if i was doing flip turns and kicking off the wall.  I agree there is a rest period and it is more pronounce that kicking and flipping but at the same time I have to swim harder to get back up to speed.  Sort of like swimming in a pack.

    Thanks again for your input. 




    Forget triathlon for a minute, you are trying to be a better swimmer. That's your priority and you need to do the majority of your swim training like a swimmer. I do one OWS a week and that will replicate race conditions, sighting drills, swim starts etc


    2016-12-06 8:24 AM
    in reply to: zedzded

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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

    throw in some Tennessee turns too, those will help

    2016-12-06 9:21 AM
    in reply to: dmiller5

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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall
    I only do OWS now during races. I've done enough OWS to know what to expect. Actually got that out of the way after two seasons of triathlons. After that, just masters swimming and solo workouts banging out 100's.

    Want to be faster in OWS? Start swimming sets of 100's and set goals of improved interval times.

    Flip turns or no flip turns doesn't matter.

    For a set of 10x100 I used to need an interval of 2:00 to get 10-15s rest. I can now do a set of 20 on 1:40 coming in under 1:30 for most of them.

    When you do a smaller set, like 5x100 cut the interval a little shorter, like 1:30 or 1:35. After a few months of banging these things out see if you can reduce your interval times. If you are successful your OWS times will come down. It's that simple.

    IMO a lot of people put too much emphasis on OWS in terms of what they need to do them better. Yeah sure I now people need to practice sighting etc. and that's fine but the hard work in the pool is where it's at.

    We actualy do a couple of "No walls" sets (200's usually) once or twice a month. We swim to each end of the pool and turn around without kicking off the wall. Doing this on an interval will take the wind out of you. It reminds me of when you're in a crowded OWS and you run into somebody swimming much slower and you essentially have to stop/slow way down and start swimming again.
    2016-12-06 9:39 AM
    in reply to: reecealan

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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

    flip turns do matter.

    2016-12-06 1:19 PM
    in reply to: dmiller5

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    Subject: RE: Tumble turns and kicking off the wall

    Originally posted by dmiller5

    flip turns do matter.

    you forgot the #

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