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2017-08-01 7:00 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by Left Brain

Yep, that's not the article I read, but it was the Frankfurt European Championship that was referenced....and that's just the folks who voluntarily admit it. 




Last week I was with some pro cyclists and saw them get tested as much as twice a day.
They test pro triathletes twice a year and AG athletes twice per century.



2017-08-01 7:02 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
LB, I think you're missing my point. If some random schmo who has no appreciable background in endurance athletics (and showed zero promise at a young age) can get to the top <3% of a big race, then think of all the guys out there who were ex D1, high school all stars, etc. That more than makes up the of the pointy end of the field. I don't think any of them are (or need to be) dopers.
2017-08-01 7:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by 3mar LB, I think you're missing my point. If some random schmo who has no appreciable background in endurance athletics (and showed zero promise at a young age) can get to the top <3% of a big race, then think of all the guys out there who were ex D1, high school all stars, etc. That more than makes up the of the pointy end of the field. I don't think any of them are (or need to be) dopers.

That's crazy talk.  That's like saying Olympians (those REALLY gifted folks ) don't dope because they have the other gifts......we all know how that goes.

Look, wealthy people don't need to steal, but how come we keep arresting those who do?  Drugs to enhance health and performance is the story of our generation......it crosses all levels in sport.  Now put them in a sport that virtually NEVER tests (AG triathlon).  This is easy.



Edited by Left Brain 2017-08-01 7:16 PM
2017-08-01 7:19 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar LB, I think you're missing my point. If some random schmo who has no appreciable background in endurance athletics (and showed zero promise at a young age) can get to the top <3% of a big race, then think of all the guys out there who were ex D1, high school all stars, etc. That more than makes up the of the pointy end of the field. I don't think any of them are (or need to be) dopers.

That's crazy talk.  That's like saying Olympians (those REALLY gifted folks ) don't dope because they have the other gifts......we all know how that goes.

Look, wealthy people don't need to steal, but how come we keep arresting those who do?  Drugs to enhance health and performance is the story of our generation......it crosses all levels in sport.  Now put them in a sport that virtually NEVER tests (AG triathlon).  This is easy.




Well then I default to my original comment....whatever. The field is what it is and that's what I'm competing against, and I believe with enough work I can get to the front regardless of who's cheating.

It's the same as flying past two yahoos drafting....I always make a comment along the lines of, "even cheating, ya'll are slow!" And boy does that em off!!
2017-08-01 7:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar LB, I think you're missing my point. If some random schmo who has no appreciable background in endurance athletics (and showed zero promise at a young age) can get to the top <3% of a big race, then think of all the guys out there who were ex D1, high school all stars, etc. That more than makes up the of the pointy end of the field. I don't think any of them are (or need to be) dopers.

That's crazy talk.  That's like saying Olympians (those REALLY gifted folks ) don't dope because they have the other gifts......we all know how that goes.

Look, wealthy people don't need to steal, but how come we keep arresting those who do?  Drugs to enhance health and performance is the story of our generation......it crosses all levels in sport.  Now put them in a sport that virtually NEVER tests (AG triathlon).  This is easy.

Well then I default to my original comment....whatever. The field is what it is and that's what I'm competing against, and I believe with enough work I can get to the front regardless of who's cheating. It's the same as flying past two yahoos drafting....I always make a comment along the lines of, "even cheating, ya'll are slow!" And boy does that em off!!

Yeah, I agree with  the "whatever" comment.....because, as you said, it is what it is.  But a level playing field is what we should all shoot for. THAT'S sport!  The data suggests you get beat by at least SOMEONE who cheats with PED's.  That's forked up.



Edited by Left Brain 2017-08-01 7:38 PM
2017-08-02 8:58 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

3Mar, i think you're overestimating the effects of something like T-doping by an AGer.  A 55 year old might be taking T to get to a normal level, this isn't going to make them some crazy superstar necessarily.  BUT, it might mean that when he should be declining, he isn't.  Maybe he is still coming in 25th place overall, and you don't care, but he may still be placing in his AG and getting a KQ rolldown. 

 

I've also been in/watched enough races where 30 seconds was the difference between podium and not to be upset about these people taking T, or even pain killers.



2017-08-02 12:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by 3mar


Well then I default to my original comment....whatever. The field is what it is and that's what I'm competing against, and I believe with enough work I can get to the front regardless of who's cheating.



This is the right attitude to have.

That being said, you have stated you would love to KQ one day. Slots are going to get harder and harder to come by. As IM expands internationally fewer slots per race will be available and there will be an increase in the percentage of people willing to cheat at the pointy end. While I think KQ is an admirable goal, keep in mind that it will never be a level field getting there.

T is a problem, EPO is a problem, but the cheaters are continuously finding ways to cheat the system. The pointier end of the field is using more sophisticated techniques.I wish it was as easy as saying "more testing" but it isn't.

It's also a problem that exists across all sports at all levels. My Dr told me that the highest frequency of PEDs he gets requests for is from high school kids. Scary.



Edited by marcag 2017-08-02 12:19 PM
2017-08-02 7:10 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by Left Brain

The data suggests you get beat by at least SOMEONE who cheats with PED's. 




And that I beat quite a few that do too...statistically, most of them. I'll take it as an extra feather in my cap. I can't do anything about it, so might as well use it as an extra challenge. The alternative is just toxic.

Originally posted by marcag

While I think KQ is an admirable goal, keep in mind that it will never be a level field getting there.




I can see what it takes to get there, and I'm heading in the right direction. My progress hasn't slowed and I can still see low hanging fruit to attack to get faster. My options are to focus on the cheaters, get upset, or use it as an excuse for not making the cut. Or take it in stride and just see it as a higher mountain to climb. I'm confident that I can get fast enough to get there based on the current field (cheaters and all). Better to focus that energy internally.
2017-08-02 7:16 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by Oysterboy I think you guys are getting off on a tangent here. IMHO Lefty was principally talking about 45-60 AGers taking testosterone. Any number of reasons that a reputable MD would prescribe testosterone, some medical, some largely vanity (ie, we have all seen the guy in his 50's or 60's with a six pack and a bikini babe on his arm). Of course if you happen to have prostate cancer then you are likely pouring gas on that fire. I can see medical levels of testosterone being a PED and may be common among top AGers, but we are far from Barry Bonds here.

I actually think there are probably a lot of people "doping" in those age groups, but not necessarily doing it to win.  As you noted, vanity is a contributor and I've heard (mostly seen in writing) people say things like, "Well, it's not like I'm winning anyways, so it doesn't really matter if I take testosterone."  Sure, it's doping....but they're not the ones taking the WC slots.

I like to think that everyone who beats me is clean and that they beat me simply because they worked harder, have been at it longer, or are simply more talented than I am.  And I'm with Omar....if they're doping and beating me by only "small" amounts, then they're sure taking a lot of risk for not a lot of reward.  That said, I don't actually know how potent PED's are....are they going to take me from a 4:50 HIM'er to a 4:20 HIM'er?  Or are we talking 4:50 to 4:45?  Cause you're still not winning at 4:45!

That's the thing. It's either not that common, or not that effective. All of the dudes who podiumed on Sunday were KQers and I was 8 minutes off 5th. Again; I couldn't have even thought about D1 in swimming, and I couldn't even stay on the track team in high school...like couldn't even be the slowest guy, they just stopped putting me in races, and started sending me off to do runs by myself through neighborhoods while everyone else was on the track, until I finally got the hint and quit. Now you take all the ex D1 athletes and track stars, people with actual genetic gifts, and those with just more dedication, and that easily fills the gap in front a guy like me. No need to look at doping.

Dude - KQ is plenty of reason for some folks to cheat.  Spend some time googling......it's probably close to common.  I read an article to day about an IM in Europe where it was theorized that 20% used PED's.  I don't doubt it for a minute.  I can go back and find the article......but if you make me do that I'm going to put this laptop in the dishwasher.  LOL




http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.00...

Wait one minute, peer-reviewed scientific literature on the pages of BT? What are we coming to here folks?
2017-08-02 8:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Marcaq has good stuff. All i know is it would be frustrating having a doggy paddling doper pass me on the swim.
2017-08-02 10:06 PM
in reply to: runtim23

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
All the doping in the world is not going to help someone pass you doing doggy paddle! I don't think there's any "supplement" that can teach someone how to have an effective swim stroke, or be comfortable in open water!


2017-08-03 8:29 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by Hot Runner All the doping in the world is not going to help someone pass you doing doggy paddle! I don't think there's any "supplement" that can teach someone how to have an effective swim stroke, or be comfortable in open water!

I've heard good things about Xanax!  

2017-08-03 9:05 AM
in reply to: Hot Runner

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by Hot Runner All the doping in the world is not going to help someone pass you doing doggy paddle! I don't think there's any "supplement" that can teach someone how to have an effective swim stroke, or be comfortable in open water!

Might need an expert in stroke analysis as I'm not qualified to compare it to "doggy".

2017-08-03 5:21 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
His (her?) swim stroke appears to be quite efficient--seems to be moving as fast as or faster than the people, without benefit of drafting. But he (she?) should have studied the course map better!

2017-08-03 5:38 PM
in reply to: brigby1


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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
That deer needs to be tested.
2017-08-03 8:09 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by Left Brain

Yeah, I agree with  the "whatever" comment.....because, as you said, it is what it is.  But a level playing field is what we should all shoot for. THAT'S sport!  The data suggests you get beat by at least SOMEONE who cheats with PED's.  That's forked up.

You say "a level playing field is what we should all shoot for" and yet are the first person to say "everyone is doping".....how do you suggest we shoot for that level playing field?  I'm a big proponent for a level playing field.....and that goes for things like doping, mechanical doping, or a-holes who decide to deflate other competitor's tires in transition.  But when we all (or you) say/believe that people are doping and it's far more widespread than people want to think/believe, how do we deal with it?  How do we fix the issue?

I'm with 3mar here.....the system is broken.  It might not be fixable in the short term....and if that's the case, I'm going to do everything I can to compete against the dopers/cheaters in the most honest way possible.  I'm going to work my butt off, and if/when I get beaten, I'm going to work harder and I'm not going to dwell on it or stress out about it, but given the opportunity/knowledge, I will absolutely out someone who is not going about it in a legal/fair way.  I'm not sure there's much else to do beyond whining about it on the internet, and I'm pretty sure that's solved a whole lotta nothing in the past. 



2017-08-03 10:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by Left Brain

Yeah, I agree with  the "whatever" comment.....because, as you said, it is what it is.  But a level playing field is what we should all shoot for. THAT'S sport!  The data suggests you get beat by at least SOMEONE who cheats with PED's.  That's forked up.

You say "a level playing field is what we should all shoot for" and yet are the first person to say "everyone is doping".....how do you suggest we shoot for that level playing field?  I'm a big proponent for a level playing field.....and that goes for things like doping, mechanical doping, or a-holes who decide to deflate other competitor's tires in transition.  But when we all (or you) say/believe that people are doping and it's far more widespread than people want to think/believe, how do we deal with it?  How do we fix the issue?

I'm with 3mar here.....the system is broken.  It might not be fixable in the short term....and if that's the case, I'm going to do everything I can to compete against the dopers/cheaters in the most honest way possible.  I'm going to work my butt off, and if/when I get beaten, I'm going to work harder and I'm not going to dwell on it or stress out about it, but given the opportunity/knowledge, I will absolutely out someone who is not going about it in a legal/fair way.  I'm not sure there's much else to do beyond whining about it on the internet, and I'm pretty sure that's solved a whole lotta nothing in the past. 

Show me where I said "everyone is doping"......I never said that.  I DID say it's far more widespread then you think it is.  You solve it by testing.....just like every sport works to solve it.  Triathlon is not that interested at this point, outside of a bit of eyewash  And at the AG level there will NEVER be any true interest....so yeah, as I said, it is what it is. 

It's not whining.  It's a discussion about whether it's prevalent or not, and it certainly is.  It's all fine to say that you will just work harder and beat those folks......I hope you do and I'm rooting for you.  It got so bad in cycling that the athletes came to realize they COULDN'T beat the guys who were doping, harder work be damned.... which led to even more widespread use.  You're probably a better athlete then those guys were.



Edited by Left Brain 2017-08-03 10:19 PM
2017-08-04 7:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
I don't know much about epo endurance PEDs but if its anything like anabloic steroids its highly unfair. I had a weight lifting buddy that was pretty close to my equal but when he started juicing its like he wasnt even human anymore. Untouchable.
2017-08-04 8:39 AM
in reply to: runtim23

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
EPO gotta be good stuff, drug of choice for the Tour de France. Seriously, EPO (erythropoietin) is made by the kidneys and stimulates red blood cell production. With high RBC levels in the blood you get better muscle oxygenation during aerobic exercise. The benefits are huge, and because, unlike anabolic steroids it is a natural body product it is tough to know who is doping.
2017-08-04 8:58 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
How about a non-profit that offers free testing for all podium finishers at big races (IM branded for the most part) and when passed it posts their name up on the internet along with the other podium finishers who opt out. If there is enough concern among the triathlon community to donate to the cause, then there's a good chance it could be feasible. Then, whenever someone comes up with some lame excuse like "privacy" or some ambiguous moral disagreement with the procedure or some such nonsense, the rest of us could read between the lines.

Here's my hunch though; I think it would turn out a lot like the whole drug testing for welfare debacles. It would cost a ton of money, and the results would be some insignificantly small portion of folks turn out to be dopers.
2017-08-04 10:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by 3mar

How about a non-profit that offers free testing for all podium finishers at big races (IM branded for the most part) and when passed it posts their name up on the internet along with the other podium finishers who opt out. If there is enough concern among the triathlon community to donate to the cause, then there's a good chance it could be feasible. Then, whenever someone comes up with some lame excuse like "privacy" or some ambiguous moral disagreement with the procedure or some such nonsense, the rest of us could read between the lines.

Here's my hunch though; I think it would turn out a lot like the whole drug testing for welfare debacles. It would cost a ton of money, and the results would be some insignificantly small portion of folks turn out to be dopers.


A insignificantly small portion would turn in a positive test. Today's testing is not a doping test. It's an IQ test. Smart people will not get caught.

But if you had a reliable system that was able to detect usage in the last 365 days, the percentage caught would not be insignificant. If then you can true consequences for a positive test, maybe you could reduce it. But today we have neither good testing nor true consequences of being caught.

Unfortunately, testing is a part of the solution but not the main part because it is just not efficient. If there was a will, they could make it better but we have to be pragmatic and put the money where it will make the biggest difference. Testing technology and know-how is way behind doping technology.

You need to look at the root cause of doping across different sports, demographics, geographies....There are reasons people dope and if you understand the reasons you have a better chance of combatting it.


Edited by marcag 2017-08-04 10:28 AM


2017-08-04 10:29 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by Oysterboy

EPO gotta be good stuff, drug of choice for the Tour de France. Seriously, EPO (erythropoietin) is made by the kidneys and stimulates red blood cell production. With high RBC levels in the blood you get better muscle oxygenation during aerobic exercise. The benefits are huge, and because, unlike anabolic steroids it is a natural body product it is tough to know who is doping.


WAS the drug of choice, not is. There is probably more TUE abuse than EPO today.
And it's all sports, not cycling. Athletics are probably dirtier than cycling is today.
Cycling has figured out that doping is hurting their bottom line, so they are attempting to do something about it. Too little, but still better than athletics (IMO).
2017-08-04 10:57 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by marcag

figured out that doping is hurting their bottom line,


ding ding ding....until it starts to hurt the bottom line, no governing body will do anything about it. Frankly, testing in the AG ranks would be the thing that would hurt their bottom line, not the opposite. So it's never going to happen.

So back to my mantra....whatever.
2017-08-04 7:27 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by 3mar How about a non-profit that offers free testing for all podium finishers at big races (IM branded for the most part) and when passed it posts their name up on the internet along with the other podium finishers who opt out. If there is enough concern among the triathlon community to donate to the cause, then there's a good chance it could be feasible. Then, whenever someone comes up with some lame excuse like "privacy" or some ambiguous moral disagreement with the procedure or some such nonsense, the rest of us could read between the lines. Here's my hunch though; I think it would turn out a lot like the whole drug testing for welfare debacles. It would cost a ton of money, and the results would be some insignificantly small portion of folks turn out to be dopers.
A insignificantly small portion would turn in a positive test. Today's testing is not a doping test. It's an IQ test. Smart people will not get caught. But if you had a reliable system that was able to detect usage in the last 365 days, the percentage caught would not be insignificant. If then you can true consequences for a positive test, maybe you could reduce it. But today we have neither good testing nor true consequences of being caught. Unfortunately, testing is a part of the solution but not the main part because it is just not efficient. If there was a will, they could make it better but we have to be pragmatic and put the money where it will make the biggest difference. Testing technology and know-how is way behind doping technology. You need to look at the root cause of doping across different sports, demographics, geographies....There are reasons people dope and if you understand the reasons you have a better chance of combatting it.

Marc,

What about ABP?  I was under the impression that the passport is a major step forward in anti-doping efforts.

2017-08-05 5:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Why is 35-39 AG for men so tough compared to 20-24 and 25-29 and 30-34
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by 3mar How about a non-profit that offers free testing for all podium finishers at big races (IM branded for the most part) and when passed it posts their name up on the internet along with the other podium finishers who opt out. If there is enough concern among the triathlon community to donate to the cause, then there's a good chance it could be feasible. Then, whenever someone comes up with some lame excuse like "privacy" or some ambiguous moral disagreement with the procedure or some such nonsense, the rest of us could read between the lines. Here's my hunch though; I think it would turn out a lot like the whole drug testing for welfare debacles. It would cost a ton of money, and the results would be some insignificantly small portion of folks turn out to be dopers.
A insignificantly small portion would turn in a positive test. Today's testing is not a doping test. It's an IQ test. Smart people will not get caught. But if you had a reliable system that was able to detect usage in the last 365 days, the percentage caught would not be insignificant. If then you can true consequences for a positive test, maybe you could reduce it. But today we have neither good testing nor true consequences of being caught. Unfortunately, testing is a part of the solution but not the main part because it is just not efficient. If there was a will, they could make it better but we have to be pragmatic and put the money where it will make the biggest difference. Testing technology and know-how is way behind doping technology. You need to look at the root cause of doping across different sports, demographics, geographies....There are reasons people dope and if you understand the reasons you have a better chance of combatting it.

Marc,

What about ABP?  I was under the impression that the passport is a major step forward in anti-doping efforts.




The use a technique called micro dosing. This article shows some of the gains they get
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-television-report-shows-how-...

I was at the TDF two week ago with one of the teams. They were tested many times, especially one of the GC contenders. One team doc said he has seen 4x per day and was the most he had seen. They came in the team bus post race once.

People you meet in the villages say the same thing. They have been turned off by the scandals and the tour has lost some appeal. Although it is still nuts. So I think cycling is trying a bit.


Edited by marcag 2017-08-05 5:53 AM
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