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2017-11-29 11:13 AM

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Subject: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Hello everyone,

I hope you can help me figure something out about my recent Ironman puzzle. I may have figured it out though but would like your input. I finished Ironman Arizona a couple weekends ago and finished using my Plan C (which was just to make it to the finish). I finished about an hour faster than my first attempt 2 years ago and I'm pretty happy about that.

Here's my race report:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

I put in almost 4500 miles on the saddle leading up to this race thinking I'd make a 6:00-6:20 bike split going at an easy pace, HR in low to mid Z2 and power at 0.55-0.60IF to have a good run. However, that did not work and and felt nauseated and a little dizzy in T2. I developed cramps the entire run. My BT logs are up to date for review if needed.

I aimed to finish in less than 14 hours but finished in 15:42. The following are what I think affected my performance out there:

• Poor quality sleep 3 nights in a row starting on Thursday due to construction and metal plates on road near my hotel.
• Warmer and windier conditions than predicted which made me and my disc wheel decision (Zipp 404 front and disc rear) bad due to crosswinds and headwinds on the bike course. I'm 142lbs and felt pushed around.
• Insufficient hydration on the bike course.

Was I way too dehydrated? Your thoughts please?

Thanks,
Roland


2017-11-29 1:44 PM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Sorry you had a tough go....but happy you finished. Congrats.

I'm no expert (at all), but my only full distance race.....I went into with similar expectations.

What's your FTP....and what did your NP look like (for the race)?
How much bike volume were you doing in training?
What were the temps like where you trained? Race day?
2017-11-29 2:41 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by nc452010

Sorry you had a tough go....but happy you finished. Congrats.


Thank you!

Answers to your questions:

What's your FTP....and what did your NP look like (for the race)?


242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.

How much bike volume were you doing in training?


165 and 188 mpw bike miles last 2 weeks of peak with hill training inserted during long rides and 1 hard intervals focused workout per week.

What were the temps like where you trained? Race day?


Similar but drier and windier.
2017-11-29 6:07 PM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by kloofyroland

242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.


There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.
2017-11-29 6:47 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Master
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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by kloofyroland

242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.


There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.



I did and reported a sub 6 bike split. When you say unaero, you're right, I made a bad choice leaving the disc wheel on in the back.
2017-11-30 3:24 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by kloofyroland

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by kloofyroland

242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.


There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.



I did and reported a sub 6 bike split. When you say unaero, you're right, I made a bad choice leaving the disc wheel on in the back.


Were you sitting up the whole time ? A really aero person would be under 5h30 with your wattage.

Edited by marcag 2017-11-30 3:52 AM


2017-11-30 8:55 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by kloofyroland

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by kloofyroland

242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.


There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.



I did and reported a sub 6 bike split. When you say unaero, you're right, I made a bad choice leaving the disc wheel on in the back.


With those numbers it's a heck of a lot more than a disc wheel. I'm 20 lbs heavier than you and that wattage would get me around 5:20. Unless you where wearing a parachute, it would seem that you were sitting bolt upright most of the ride. Were you on a tri bike?
2017-11-30 11:17 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice

Congrats on the finish!  I've only done a couple of HIMs so take my notes below with that in mind.

3 nights of inadequate sleep will certainly affect your performance.

Your race specific swim training was lacking.  You swam a decent amount for a HIM but not a full.  I went back to September in your log and there wasn't one 4000 yard/meter workout.  A 90 minute swim is going to take a bit out of you even if you went easy.  You'd probably learn a lot about your fitness status during the training build by swimming 3500-4000 yards/meters and then riding 75-90 miles.  When my swim volume is lacking, holding power on the bike is compromised.

Most of your longer training rides were in the 130-150 watt range.  You say you raced at 150-160.  150-160 shouldn't be a problem if your ftp is correct but I would have expected training rides at or above projected race wattage, not below.  This might explain why you had some issues coming in to T2.  Hydration might have been an issue but racing at higher watts than you trained at could/would cause problems too.  To properly evaluate your nutrition plan you need to be testing at or a bit above race pace efforts.

I don't have a disk.  With that being said, if you had to come out of aero a lot because you were uncomfortable with the wind situation, you need to either train more with it or use something else. 

 

 

 

2017-11-30 11:53 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Just for reference....I rode 6:25:xx @ LOU on 147 W NP......and I weighed 193#s on race day. My FTP (was) 240.
2017-11-30 1:22 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Master
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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice


With those numbers it's a heck of a lot more than a disc wheel. I'm 20 lbs heavier than you and that wattage would get me around 5:20. Unless you where wearing a parachute, it would seem that you were sitting bolt upright most of the ride. Were you on a tri bike?


Oh man, I apparently overcooked myself. Yes, I was on on a tri bike but I had to stop and pee more times than during training which added time to my bike split. Peeing on the bike... still a challenge for me, hehehe.
2017-11-30 1:26 PM
in reply to: JoelO

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Your race specific swim training was lacking. You swam a decent amount for a HIM but not a full. I went back to September in your log and there wasn't one 4000 yard/meter workout. A 90 minute swim is going to take a bit out of you even if you went easy. You'd probably learn a lot about your fitness status during the training build by swimming 3500-4000 yards/meters and then riding 75-90 miles. When my swim volume is lacking, holding power on the bike is compromised.


Thanks!

You make a good point. I won't slack on the swimming before my next Ironman.


2017-11-30 1:27 PM
in reply to: marcag

Master
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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by kloofyroland 242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.
There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.

How much time did you lose from the mechanical and other stops?  Were you actually waiting for the mechanic to get to you or was it just a quick swap?

Let us subtract those things out, then we'll have a better feel for your actual speed on the course.  But yeah I'd say if you want help with your bike position, there are people here who can give you good advice if they see some photos of you on the trainer.

2017-11-30 1:30 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by kloofyroland

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by kloofyroland

242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.


There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.



I did and reported a sub 6 bike split. When you say unaero, you're right, I made a bad choice leaving the disc wheel on in the back.


Were you sitting up the whole time ? A really aero person would be under 5h30 with your wattage.


I wasn't. I'd say I was out of aero about half the time on the bike leg. I was pushed around quite a bit.

I weighed 140lbs on race day. Could being this weight affected me more than someone who's say... 160lbs in crosswinds and headwinds?
2017-11-30 1:37 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by kloofyroland 242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.
There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.

How much time did you lose from the mechanical and other stops?  Were you actually waiting for the mechanic to get to you or was it just a quick swap?

Let us subtract those things out, then we'll have a better feel for your actual speed on the course.  But yeah I'd say if you want help with your bike position, there are people here who can give you good advice if they see some photos of you on the trainer.




Oh gosh, I just reviewed my Garmin data and I had a moving time of 6:40 and 118watts NP. I misremembered my power output, ugh....sorry about that guys.

I waited for a bike mechanic to get to me but when they finished helping the other athlete they turned around. When I got to the next aid station I had to wait for the bike mechanic there to help me. I think I would have saved time if I swapped the inner tube myself. >.<
2017-12-01 8:11 AM
in reply to: 0

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1502
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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by kloofyroland

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by kloofyroland 242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.
There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.

How much time did you lose from the mechanical and other stops?  Were you actually waiting for the mechanic to get to you or was it just a quick swap?

Let us subtract those things out, then we'll have a better feel for your actual speed on the course.  But yeah I'd say if you want help with your bike position, there are people here who can give you good advice if they see some photos of you on the trainer.




Oh gosh, I just reviewed my Garmin data and I had a moving time of 6:40 and 118watts NP. I misremembered my power output, ugh....sorry about that guys.

I waited for a bike mechanic to get to me but when they finished helping the other athlete they turned around. When I got to the next aid station I had to wait for the bike mechanic there to help me. I think I would have saved time if I swapped the inner tube myself. >.<


That makes a lot more sense. But still, being out of the aero bars half the time is an issue (and a very common one). Are you able to stay in aero most of the time during training? By most of the time, I'm talking 99.9% of the time, outside of a couple seconds for very sharp turns or stops? These races are all about efficiency, and every second you're not in aero is just throwing energy out the window. If it was purely a handling issue, I'd say train with the disc on all the time. That's what I do (don't mind the nay sayers). If it's more than just the handling issue, maybe look into your bike fit. Just about every race I do, I see more people out of the aero bars than in them and that's just crazy to me.

Edited by 3mar 2017-12-01 8:14 AM
2017-12-01 8:49 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Expert
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Pfafftown, NC
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
^^This.

I'm no BBS expert, but there's a trial you can try out.....and it has a sliding scale for "how aero are you?". Go plug in everything and check the predicted time differences......changing NOTHING but your position on the bike.

It'll astound you.


2017-12-01 6:18 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by kloofyroland

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by kloofyroland 242 watts and I stayed around 150-160 NP.
There is something very very unaero going on. Plug the numbers into best bike split.

How much time did you lose from the mechanical and other stops?  Were you actually waiting for the mechanic to get to you or was it just a quick swap?

Let us subtract those things out, then we'll have a better feel for your actual speed on the course.  But yeah I'd say if you want help with your bike position, there are people here who can give you good advice if they see some photos of you on the trainer.




Oh gosh, I just reviewed my Garmin data and I had a moving time of 6:40 and 118watts NP. I misremembered my power output, ugh....sorry about that guys.

I waited for a bike mechanic to get to me but when they finished helping the other athlete they turned around. When I got to the next aid station I had to wait for the bike mechanic there to help me. I think I would have saved time if I swapped the inner tube myself. >.<


That makes a lot more sense. But still, being out of the aero bars half the time is an issue (and a very common one). Are you able to stay in aero most of the time during training? By most of the time, I'm talking 99.9% of the time, outside of a couple seconds for very sharp turns or stops? These races are all about efficiency, and every second you're not in aero is just throwing energy out the window. If it was purely a handling issue, I'd say train with the disc on all the time. That's what I do (don't mind the nay sayers). If it's more than just the handling issue, maybe look into your bike fit. Just about every race I do, I see more people out of the aero bars than in them and that's just crazy to me.


Yes, I agree with you about being efficient and utilizing aero position as long as possible.

I made sure I stayed in aero at least 90% of all my long training rides and only got out when I was going 8mph or less up a hill. However,I only trained using the disc wheel on 3 long training rides during peak because a friend of mine lent them to me.

Perhaps that was insufficient training time with them?
2017-12-02 6:35 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by kloofyroland

I made sure I stayed in aero at least 90% of all my long training rides and only got out when I was going 8mph or less up a hill. However,I only trained using the disc wheel on 3 long training rides during peak because a friend of mine lent them to me.

Perhaps that was insufficient training time with them?


this is good.

At 8mph, aero drag is small. Most people can generate more watts sitting up and this will easily compensate for the very minimal aero penalty.

Now, for the disc wheel. Handling problems in winds are usually more attributed to a deep front wheel than the back. Had you trained on the 404 before ?

Overall it sounds like you had more of a hydration/nutrition challenge. Good position, bad position, aero....you came off the bike in bad shape which should not have been given your pretty conservative watts.

You'll figure it out with time.
2017-12-06 2:59 PM
in reply to: nc452010


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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by nc452010

Just for reference....I rode 6:25:xx @ LOU on 147 W NP......and I weighed 193#s on race day. My FTP (was) 240.


In at times, soul crushing headwinds no less.
40+ total miles straight into the teeth of 20, 30, and even 40+ mph headwinds if I'm not mistaken.
2017-12-06 5:19 PM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Master
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Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by jhaack39

Originally posted by nc452010

Just for reference....I rode 6:25:xx @ LOU on 147 W NP......and I weighed 193#s on race day. My FTP (was) 240.


In at times, soul crushing headwinds no less.
40+ total miles straight into the teeth of 20, 30, and even 40+ mph headwinds if I'm not mistaken.

Headwinds suck man, argh!!!
2017-12-07 1:14 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Hi,

I have nothing to add to the watt/speed/aero discussion.

But I have plenty of experience with cramps and GI issues, so just wanted to share some thoughts on those things that might have affected you.
I live in Malaysia, we train and race in 89 to 104 degrees Fahreinheit, with high humidity. I am not Malaysian, come from Norway so not in any way "born" acclimatized to these conditions.

When I started triathlon 4 years ago I cramped a lot, and suffered greatly on the runs. Either with GI issues, vomit, and then dizziness, faded vision etc from the heat.
So read up a lot on nutrition, hydration and how to prevent cramps.
First thing I found was that scientifically nothing you can do on the race day itself has been proven to prevent cramps, by then it is too late. However, taking electrolytes may reduce the severity of cramps for some. This surprised me as most commercial products will boast about their cramp preventive effects. I contacted one brand directly and asked how many electrolyte pills I can take per hour max, as I thought it would help, and as a result I took 8 per hour during my second half Ironman and still cramped. That's when I thought there has to be more to this.
So I started researching online
The only thing that is proven to have some cramp preventive effect, is to make sure your electrolyte balance is good before race day. For most that means meaning you ensure you get enough calcium and magnesium - as we usually get more than enough salt naturally. There are plenty of natural sources for this, I found that for me milk and banana was the easiest so I started taking one glass of milk and one banana a day and it worked. Since I started this I have not suffered cramps in races again.
I still take electrolytes during races, but now only one or two pills per hour.

It is hard to say if you overhydrated or underhydrated without knowing how much you took. It depends on your sweat ratio too. Do a sweat test and base your hydration on this: http://www.mysportscience.com/single-post/2017/07/14/How-much-do-yo...
For most it would mean drinking 800-1200ml per hour of IM bike, although I have Kona qualifying friend who drank 18l during a roughly 10h Ironman!

In extreme - or for your unusually high temperatures you will probably still struggle a bit more than normal though, even with perfect nutrition and hydration.

Your lack of proper sleep probably did negatively affect your race too.


2017-12-07 10:00 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland


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500100100
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by kloofyroland

Originally posted by jhaack39

Originally posted by nc452010

Just for reference....I rode 6:25:xx @ LOU on 147 W NP......and I weighed 193#s on race day. My FTP (was) 240.


In at times, soul crushing headwinds no less.
40+ total miles straight into the teeth of 20, 30, and even 40+ mph headwinds if I'm not mistaken.

Headwinds suck man, argh!!!


You can say that again. Although, in the end, I decided I could tolerate the headwinds a little in that they just make you go slower. They don't want to kill you like the crosswinds are wont to do. L-ville is nothing but up and down for all but about 20 miles. Nothing bad "up", especially if you can use the "down". But, it's a lot harder to use the "down" when you've got 30-40 gusting randomly right on your broadside. At least for those who are a little more risk averse like I am. I never dropped into the little ring for the entire first loop (although I should've for the two short kickers on Ballard School Rd.)....you know....the ones where there's at least 5 people with dropped chains every time you go through. I had to drop down regularly when the wind kicked up on loop 2 because I just couldn't bring myself to let loose going down to carry me up the dinger that followed.
2017-12-08 12:31 AM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
You could have done sub 14 with paces you are capable of. You swam too few yards, weekly bike miles were too short though your long rides were fine, you weekly run miles were also not enough to sustain your pace during the marathon after the bike.

I would like to know your nutrition as you might have had too few calories throughout the race.

I actually put you at a 13:30 with your ability for the race had your nutrition been solid, not too much wind and solid nutrition, but the low weekly training distances may have drawn you down. If you underdid your calories, that also would have drained the stamina out of you. The good news is that you can easily drop another hour to 90 min off your race with some stronger training, (no flat tires) and decent nutrition/hydration plan.
2017-12-09 10:10 AM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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20005001001002525
Los Angeles, CA
Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by knuta99

For most that means meaning you ensure you get enough calcium and magnesium - as we usually get more than enough salt naturally. There are plenty of natural sources for this, I found that for me milk and banana was the easiest so I started taking one glass of milk and one banana a day and it worked. Since I started this I have not suffered cramps in races again.
I still take electrolytes during races, but now only one or two pills per hour.

It is hard to say if you overhydrated or underhydrated without knowing how much you took. It depends on your sweat ratio too. Do a sweat test and base your hydration on this: http://www.mysportscience.com/single-post/2017/07/14/How-much-do-yo...
For most it would mean drinking 800-1200ml per hour of IM bike, although I have Kona qualifying friend who drank 18l during a roughly 10h Ironman!

In extreme - or for your unusually high temperatures you will probably still struggle a bit more than normal though, even with perfect nutrition and hydration.

Your lack of proper sleep probably did negatively affect your race too.


Thanks Knuta. It may be possible I did have some electrolyte imbalance the days before race day. I didn't drink milk but I ate bananas daily the whole week. I consider myself an average sweater. Based on the calculator you shared, my sweat rate is about 1L per hour. It looks like I nailed my bike by drinking 1 22oz bottle with Infinit with 3 Clif Shot Bloks with maybe 8oz water per hour. A friend of mine at the race said he used Nuun and ended up drinking 24 16oz bottles! O_O He had a good race, hehe.

My instincts tell me my poor sleep 3 days in a row was indeed a factor. Adrenaline wasn't enough to push me to race at my fitness level. :(

Edited by kloofyroland 2017-12-09 10:16 AM
2017-12-09 10:35 AM
in reply to: Baowolf

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Master
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Subject: RE: Ironman puzzle, need advice
Originally posted by Baowolf

You could have done sub 14 with paces you are capable of. You swam too few yards, weekly bike miles were too short though your long rides were fine, you weekly run miles were also not enough to sustain your pace during the marathon after the bike.

I agree, I slacked off on the swim volume by mistake due to thinking I have my desired technique down pat but the volume was insufficient. What do you recommend I change during my weekday bike and run workouts?


I would like to know your nutrition as you might have had too few calories throughout the race.

I ate 2 peanut butter and honey sandwiches, a banana, and apple sauce with water before the race. During the bike I took in 1 22oz bottle with Infinit which had close to 700mg of electrolytes and ~290 calories along with 2 Clif Shot Bloks (66 calories) and about 8oz of water per hour.


I actually put you at a 13:30 with your ability for the race had your nutrition been solid, not too much wind and solid nutrition, but the low weekly training distances may have drawn you down. If you underdid your calories, that also would have drained the stamina out of you. The good news is that you can easily drop another hour to 90 min off your race with some stronger training, (no flat tires) and decent nutrition/hydration plan.

A 13:30 was in the time range I planned on finishing using my A game (13 to 14 hours). I used this calculator to determine my calorie needs:

https://www.infinitnutrition.us/blog/cat/Coaches/post/Calculating_ca...

Based on that, it came out to between 294 to 491 calories per hour. If I remember correctly I consumed around 350 calories per hour on the bike. Could it be possible with the windy conditions I should have taken in more? Or should I have taken a Salt Stick per hour?

Thanks for your input Baowolf
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