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2009-03-21 2:35 PM

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Edited by AcesFull 2009-03-21 2:46 PM


2009-03-21 3:51 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Elite
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)

If returning to the Jewish community brings you comfort and makes you happy, then go for it.

Sure, it will be a little more complicated with the little ones, but I am sure you'll figure that part out as you go along.

Personally, I've never been able to get past the "no bacon" part, so my hat is off to you even more.

Good luck with your journey!

2009-03-21 4:00 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Expert
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Harrisburg, PA
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
You really must follow where the heart tells you to go...including matters of religion. I was raised Catholic. Mom is one of those ultra religious types who do novinas and the rosary every night and watches Mother Angelica on EWTN. I myself entertained thoughts of becoming a priest since I was a good little Catholic boy. And over the years my faith has waxed and wanned for various reasons. From loyal alterboy, to non=practicing catholic, to virtual agnostic, to a new-found Byzantine Catholic, now to someone who's faith is starting to ebb again.

I find that if nothing else, I shouldn't hold a person's beliefs or non-beliefs against them. I shouldn't try to force my beliefs or non-beliefs on anyone else. There will probably be topics and practices and rules in onw'a ewligion that one isn't alway 100% in agreement with. Theat's where you are to have faith and trust. I guess as time goes on I am starting to find more areas where I'm not in 100% agreement with in my religion, and that's why I'm getting shakey again. We have always been given homilies about people who belong to a religion but don't follow the rules, but how it is ridiculous to try to find a religion that fits your beliefs more, that you are in agreement with. There sometimes doesn't seem to be a lot of intolerance toward some people. And I don't like the 'we're right and evverybody else is wrong' attitude that some people adopt. Also don't like when the pulpit tries to influence the way you vote, and how you are supposed to basically be a one-issue voter and to hell with everything else.

My advice to you again, go where your heart tells you to go. You might feel the need to change directions at various phases of your life. I find that the older you or, or the longer you wait, AND you are choosing the religion that you want to be a part of, then you are more likely to be happy and satisfied, and your faith is more likly to survive with you to your final days.

Hopefully I'm not opening a can of worms here.
2009-03-21 4:11 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Iron Donkey
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)

Thanks for sharing your struggle, since I, in a small way, share that wonder of "believing", on the "Christian" side.  I don't agree with the "acceptance" in a church since I saw a LOT of hypocrits, so have decided to stay away.  Wifey on the other hand, has her belief and I accepted her wanting the kids to attend the Christian services and Sunday school.

That's a very tough decision, and I think that talking it over with the Rabbi may help moreso with your decision.  You have discussed this over with your family (not the BT/COJ family), right?

2009-03-21 4:14 PM
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2009-03-21 4:17 PM
in reply to: #2032035

Iron Donkey
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
AcesFull - 2009-03-21 4:14 PM
1stTimeTri - 2009-03-21 4:11 PM

Thanks for sharing your struggle, since I, in a small way, share that wonder of "believing", on the "Christian" side.  I don't agree with the "acceptance" in a church since I saw a LOT of hypocrits, so have decided to stay away.  Wifey on the other hand, has her belief and I accepted her wanting the kids to attend the Christian services and Sunday school.

That's a very tough decision, and I think that talking it over with the Rabbi may help moreso with your decision.  You have discussed this over with your family (not the BT/COJ family), right?

I told the wife this morning.  Odd moment.  "You know last night, when I told you I went out gambling?  Well, I really went to synagogue instead." 

We had a good chat about it, and will certainly have more. 

"You LIED to me??  How DARE you?!"



2009-03-21 4:24 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Expert
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Westchester, NY
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)

Ditto what others have said...follow your heart.  Sounds like this is more of a community thing then a religious "calling" for you right now, but maybe that will change.  Maybe not.  Either way would be OK if it is what YOU feel.

As for your kids, why not just ask them what they'd like?  Tell them this is what you're doing, but you're not going to force anything on them.  They may surprise you and themselves.  I think talking to your Rabbi is a great idea.

My son is 7 and wife wants him to start Hebrew school next year.  I'm ambivalent about it.  He has embraced his "Jewishness" on his own.  He already knows more Hebrew then I ever have, which is not much, and is soaking it up like a sponge.  A month ago at his request we started having special Shabbat dinner and I am surprised at how much I enjoy it.  It's nice for the family to all sit together for dinner and have that time together.  I do not personally think of myself as a religious Jew, but it is part of my heritage and who I am.

Did not mean to make this about me!  Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes. :-)

2009-03-21 4:27 PM
in reply to: #2032035

Veteran
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
AcesFull - 2009-03-21 4:14 PM

1stTimeTri - 2009-03-21 4:11 PM

Thanks for sharing your struggle, since I, in a small way, share that wonder of "believing", on the "Christian" side.  I don't agree with the "acceptance" in a church since I saw a LOT of hypocrits, so have decided to stay away.  Wifey on the other hand, has her belief and I accepted her wanting the kids to attend the Christian services and Sunday school.

That's a very tough decision, and I think that talking it over with the Rabbi may help moreso with your decision.  You have discussed this over with your family (not the BT/COJ family), right?

I told the wife this morning.  Odd moment.  "You know last night, when I told you I went out gambling?  Well, I really went to synagogue instead." 

We had a good chat about it, and will certainly have more. 



I don't want this to get off topic, but that has to be the quote of the day! "You know last night, when I told you I went out gambling? Well, I really went to synagogue instead."

What exactly will you say to the Rabbi regarding yourself being atheist?

I can share my story. Though it probably won't help or shed any light on your situation. I grew up in a christian home and attended a non-denominational church growing up. I too married a Catholic woman. She liked the catholic church, I liked my church. This became an issue once we had children. I felt like it was really separating our family. Two years ago I began attending her catholic church with our 2 young boys. Since that time I attended RCIA classes and have been accepted into the catholic faith. I am very happy with my decision and it has strengthened my family in all areas. My marriage, my relationship with my kids, etc... I your case, this could be the opposite. Your situation is indeed unique. You should look at your whole family and the values you wish upon your children when deciding what to do.

Interestingly enough, a person can be considered 'jewish' even if he does not believe in God at all under liberal Judiasm.
2009-03-21 4:39 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Master
2277
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Lake Norman, NC
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)

Oddly enough, while Judaism is a religion based on written law (Torah and Talmud) and not so much as faith as in Christianity, it is Judaism which is less dogmatic and open to questioning.  It is in the interpretation of those laws that we grow.  (How stereotypically Jewish-lawerly!)  The purpose for the laws is simply to make you a better person.  The origins of the religion nearly 7,000 years ago were in a time of savage lawlessness and cruelty.  I would say that there are four 'pillars' to Judaism:

  1. A spiritual connection to God.  But having this doesn't necessarily require 'religion'.  Religion can simply wrap it into a framework.  Some people can feel spiritual without religion.  Some people feel that religion enhances their spirituality.  Some people have different definitions of "God".  At it's most simplistic and basic, God=goodness.  An Atheist may not believe in the entity that is God, but would certainly believe in goodness.  It's simply attaching a different name or source to that goodness which enables us to help others and do right by our fellow people.  To me, to say one has goodness in their heart can mean the same as to say they have God in their heart.  You say tomato, I say tomahto.

    It bugs me that people always want to wrap an image, label and description around God.  (And of course that image is always... just like them.)  The notion of God transcends description and you shouldn't be concerned with symbolizing it but rather, improving by it.  If going to Temple inspires you to behave better and do good things for other people - you've improved your spiritual enlightenment.


  2. A sense of community.  Common to all religious institutions is the bond that it's members feel with one another.  And a sense of comfort from custom.  Those traditional acts that even if are not enjoyable, are familiar and comfortable.


  3. A feeling of connection backwards and forwards.  Religion offers a sense of connections to relatives past.  To a culture past.  To a specific group of people past.  It gives a sense of belonging and continuation.  Regarding your children it gives a sense of connection and immortality moving forward.  The faith that you aspire to potentially living beyond your life in that of your children.


  4. A means to help other and the community around you.  Sadly, unlike in many more Christian churches, this is where Judaism has yet to become known for.  If the religion is to make us better people by living according to laws and connecting to God, i.e. goodness which causes us to perform good acts of charity and community assistance and involvement, this is one thing that modern Jews have not served as well.  There are so many more well-known Christian-based charitable organizations than Jewish ones.  Especially those that perform services.  It's time for modern Jews to break out of our traditional isolationist sense of a persecuted-past and place ourselves on the front line of public, social and charitable contributions.  If performing acts of kindness and charity (tzedakah) gives you a sense of satisfaction, than I would challenge you to challenge your congregation and Rabbi to do more.


To me, there are two rules when it comes to religion in your position:

  1. Everyone must find their own path and in their own time.
  2. There are no rules for how long it takes or how it happens.

Don't feel conflicted or confused.  There are no rules here.  You won't be labeled a "bad Jew".  And if you are, then those doing the labeling are themselves bad.  Do not feel that the answers need come overnight.  Neither for you nor your children.  Take your time.  Explore.  Ask questions and wade into the water slowly.  If it's not going the way you expected it to or you're not getting out of it what you need, don't drop it - change it!  Make it be what you need it to be.  The Rabbi should be able to help guide you.  Either through the Temple religious traditions or on your own or with others.

Remember, PROGRESS WILL NOT BE LINEAR!  Things will feel good, then bad.  You will and should question your choices.  You may change your mind and then change it back again.  This is all allowed and is, should be, part of the process.  It will take time for you and your family to find yourselves.  You may never find that place.  I'm 40 and have been "very Jewish" all my life and you know what?  I still don't where I stand.  My religious life is in a constant state of flux and change.  And in the end, you'll see that it's the journey and the good things you've done along the way that count... not just the end.

Feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll give you my cell phone no. if you ever want to call and talk about it.

Hope this helps.

 

2009-03-21 9:01 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Pro
6767
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the Alabama part of Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)

Have you read The Year of Living Biblically? The author begins as an atheist Jew, but decides to spend a full year following as many of the biblical rules as possible, and at the end of the year, feels more religious overall.

In my situation, I am an agnostic Jew (with a rather buddhist outlook), while mrs gearboy is an atheist/recovering catholic.  Both of my kids have been free to follow their own path, and while they both identify as atheist, they are also interested in going to Israel under Birthright Israel to at least learn more about where we come from as a people. I mention this only because I think that you should pursue your interest in a return to roots without stressing too much about your kids.  Even if it is only as an intellectual curiosity, seeing their father pursue his faith will have a better impact on them than making them go along reluctantly.

2009-03-21 11:25 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Champion
4835
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Eat Cheese or Die
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
AcesFull - 2009-03-21 2:35 PM

Regardless of my eventual possible commitment to Jewish life, I don't ever see myself as being able to be un-convinced that there is no God.  Obviously, this presents more uncertainty.  Strangely, I want my kids to believe and to be religious, even though I do not and am not.


I share these same sentiments. The first time I told my wife I was an atheist she got really upset. Her biggest issue was that if we both died she wanted our daughter believing that we were in heaven watching over her, and I agreed with her on that.

I also understand the community sense of belonging to a church, I was raised in a Protestant church and was forced to attend every Sunday until I started working at 15 and asked my boss to schedule me for Sundays so I could get out of going. However, I met some close friends there and do miss the community. When we moved to WI we entertained the idea of going to church if for nothing else, to meet people. Thankfully the tri club fulfilled that need.

While attending Sunday school we would take field trips to other Christian Denominations to see how they practiced. My parents also sent me to a Quaker school up until 8th grade. Because it was a private school we could be taught religion. Not only did we learn about Quaker religion, but we also spent much time on the other major religions including Confucianism. In high school we learned about the major religions from a historical perspective. I can honestly say that I have a more well rounded religious education then most people with whom I have ever discussed religion. I also believe that this education lead to my not believing in organized religion. There is too much similarity between the big ones to not realize that none of them can be the only correct one. Not believing in a god came about on it's own.

Because I have some of the same questions all I can offer is my feelings on the subject. Despite missing the community aspect of a church, I haven't joined because I believe I would always feel I was an outsider. I want my children to have a well rounded religious education and I want them to decided for themselves if that is the path that is right for them. How to give them that education without showing my bias is the tough part that I haven't answered yet, but I think you are right that it needs to start young.

May we all find heaven in the Torta Cubana! Which BTW I didn't make it to Chaska, but I'm going to try when we are in the Twin Cities at the end of May for a wedding.

Edited by graceful_dave 2009-03-21 11:33 PM


2009-03-23 4:00 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Expert
757
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Florida
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
Really interesting aces, and thanks for sharing.
As an individual who was raised in a conservative home by parents who were both raised conservadox, i had a relatively similiar upbringing...hebrew school etc..although my view differed slightly from yours, the same basic tenets were there.

I was also blessed with having a world renown rabbi as my mentor and siyuum overseer who took time to answer any and all of my questions.
besides all of this it ultimately comes down to what you want. I feel judiasm provides me with a sense of place in this world, not just with my people, but with my family.
My wife was raised without religion, and when we got together she knew that, while i was jewish and took it seriously, if our relationship went somewhere i would never force her to adopt my belief system simply for the sake of our children.

She spent time talking with my parents, and with others regarding the same tenets i wanted to know about as a child etc.. and she found that judiasm for her was the piece of her life she had been missing....this was followed with conversion etc... i NEVER forced her and ultimately while im glad she chose judiasm, i would have been satisfied with the woman she is either way.

if its important to you, then leave it at that, and involve conversation with your wife, if you feel its important for your 3 year old to get involved early.
My Father went from the conservative background to now, where he reguarly attends the Chasidm temple in our hometown and keep kosher inside and outside of the house now(we only did inside the house growing up). while he doesn't have the bobs and hat attire, he finds chasidm servies more up his alley, and has included his second year of conversational hebrew.
My mother on the other hand is about as reform as they come now, but still supports my father and how he wants to further his belief...i think everyone should be the same. .....

Support your significant other in their pursuit of internal reflection and substance and everyone wins.

wow-that ended up being long too.

As an aside-i fully support having children go on birthright. its simply a life-changing experience.



Edited by BeginnerMan 2009-03-23 4:03 PM
2009-03-23 5:27 PM
in reply to: #2031915

Champion
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)

I will remain brief, but that doesn't mean that I haven't put some thought into this.

My Dad is Catholic, my Mom is Jewish.  My Dad goes to church for deaths and marriages.  My Mom goes to synagogue for the same and for high holidays.

Some of my fondest memories are of going to church with my paternal grandmother, and sharing sabbath dinner with my maternal grandparents.

That said, my view of formal, 'building-based' religion is that it both brings together a community, but also divides that community from the larger community.

Religion, like many things (aside from running, biking, and swimming) , is best in moderation and when shared first with your family.

One question...you describe yourself as an atheist?  I would think that may cause many internal conflicts when you attend shul with 'true believers'.

Two final thoughts:

1. I don't think that religion makes you a good or bad person, and neither does no religion make you a good or bad person.

2. I believe in God, but I don't believe that religion has anything to do with God.

2009-03-23 5:46 PM
in reply to: #2032359

Champion
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
gearboy - 2009-03-21 9:01 PM

Have you read The Year of Living Biblically? The author begins as an atheist Jew, but decides to spend a full year following as many of the biblical rules as possible, and at the end of the year, feels more religious overall.

 

A great book!

2009-03-23 10:55 PM
in reply to: #2031915

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2009-03-23 11:37 PM
in reply to: #2035518

Master
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
pga_mike - 2009-03-24 9:27 AM

... I believe in God, but I don't believe that religion has anything to do with God.

My absolute belief also.

Oh and a Catholic father and  Jewish mother... I can only imagine the guilt-trips in your house!!!



2009-03-24 7:47 AM
in reply to: #2036070

Pro
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Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
Iron_Gus - 2009-03-24 12:37 AM
pga_mike - 2009-03-24 9:27 AM

... I believe in God, but I don't believe that religion has anything to do with God.

My absolute belief also.

Oh and a Catholic father and  Jewish mother... I can only imagine the guilt-trips in your house!!!

For some reason, this seems to be a common combination (albeit with gender switches).  We are a family of lapsed Catholic and agnostic jew; and one of our good friend's from med school is in a Catholic/Jewish marriage as well.  This way, the kids can feel guilty about everything they think or do wrong (the catholic side) as well as everything they COULD have done right and did not (the jewish guilt).

2009-03-24 9:55 AM
in reply to: #2031915

Champion
4902
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Ottawa, Ontario
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
Follow your heart.  If going to the synagogue and becoming a full fledged Jew is what you really want, then do it.  As for the children, give them the option of joining you if they wish or not if that is their decision.  
2009-03-24 10:02 AM
in reply to: #2036579

Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)

Machiavelo - 2009-03-24 10:55 AM Follow your heart.  If going to the synagogue and becoming a full fledged Jew is what you really want, then do it.  As for the children, give them the option of joining you if they wish or not if that is their decision.  

Except to be a full-fledged Jew, he'd kinda have to believe in God, right? Which he doesn't and doesn't plan to. I'm not sure how it all works with Judaism, but I do know that to convert (if you were not born into a Jewish family), the process is VERY rigorous and they want to make sure you are serious and well-intentioned.

It's fine if you miss the community and such, but I feel like going through the motions without the belief to back it all up would become unsatisfying at some point. Maybe a few more chats with the Rabbi are in order.

2009-03-24 10:26 AM
in reply to: #2031915

Master
1404
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Atlanta, Ga
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
also, why do you have to be convinced one way or another on the existance of God? I'm fairly certain that there is not one person on that planet who knows for fact that God exisits. They can believe with all their heart and mind, but that doesn't make it true. I stuggle with the existance of god, or a higher being all the time, but part of what makes life great, is the adventure that is determining what it all means. If rejoining the Jewish community is what you are naturally drawn to, then by all means, do it. I just suggest one thing though: Don't close yourself off to the existance of God. Just 'don't know', like the rest of us. Figure it out over time. Always keep all doors open.. if even just a little bit. Struggle with it, and allow it to challenge your way of thinking. Without that, there may not really be any point to your return.
Z
2009-03-24 10:05 PM
in reply to: #2036597

Master
1652
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Reston, VA
Gold member
Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
wurkit_gurl - 2009-03-24 11:02 AM

Machiavelo - 2009-03-24 10:55 AM Follow your heart.  If going to the synagogue and becoming a full fledged Jew is what you really want, then do it.  As for the children, give them the option of joining you if they wish or not if that is their decision.  

Except to be a full-fledged Jew, he'd kinda have to believe in God, right? Which he doesn't and doesn't plan to. I'm not sure how it all works with Judaism, but I do know that to convert (if you were not born into a Jewish family), the process is VERY rigorous and they want to make sure you are serious and well-intentioned.

It's fine if you miss the community and such, but I feel like going through the motions without the belief to back it all up would become unsatisfying at some point. Maybe a few more chats with the Rabbi are in order.

That's where you are wrong! Being a Jew does not mean believing....  We question everything.  My mom's side of family is Jewish and I still desperately miss my grandpa switching to Yiddish talk when he did not want us to understand him. Or his stuffed fish... My grandparents were very Jewish traditionally without actually believing. I'm not sure if it makes sense but the Judaism is more of an ethnicity to many than a religion per se.



2009-03-24 10:08 PM
in reply to: #2038325

Subject: RE: Conundrum: An atheist Jew contemplates a return to Jewish life (very long)
Z - 2009-03-24 11:05 PM
wurkit_gurl - 2009-03-24 11:02 AM

Machiavelo - 2009-03-24 10:55 AM Follow your heart.  If going to the synagogue and becoming a full fledged Jew is what you really want, then do it.  As for the children, give them the option of joining you if they wish or not if that is their decision.  

Except to be a full-fledged Jew, he'd kinda have to believe in God, right? Which he doesn't and doesn't plan to. I'm not sure how it all works with Judaism, but I do know that to convert (if you were not born into a Jewish family), the process is VERY rigorous and they want to make sure you are serious and well-intentioned.

It's fine if you miss the community and such, but I feel like going through the motions without the belief to back it all up would become unsatisfying at some point. Maybe a few more chats with the Rabbi are in order.

That's where you are wrong! Being a Jew does not mean believing....  We question everything.  My mom's side of family is Jewish and I still desperately miss my grandpa switching to Yiddish talk when he did not want us to understand him. Or his stuffed fish... My grandparents were very Jewish traditionally without actually believing. I'm not sure if it makes sense but the Judaism is more of an ethnicity to many than a religion per se.

And believing doesn't mean not questioning things either. I'm not talking about blind faith - which I understand most people think belief in God is. Yes, to be Jewish is an ethnic distinction, but to be religiously Jewish, I can't imagine that it wouldn't feel odd NOT believing in any of the stuff the rest of them believe in. Yes, the spiritual aspect of Judaism consists of questioning, but it's a rhetoric style that Rabbis used back in the day - they would answer their pupils' questions with more questions in order to get them to think about things. That does NOT mean that they didn't believe in God. Quite the opposite.



Edited by wurkit_gurl 2009-03-24 10:10 PM
2009-03-24 10:12 PM
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