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Why no assistance during IMs?
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 2009-07-28 1:51 PM |
 Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida |  Subject: Why no assistance during IMs?Just curious about what the general population think, but while watching the Kona replay this weekend, my mother-in-law asked why someone couldn't get Chrissie Wellington a pump. I said "you're not supposed to get outside help during the race." She then asked "well didn't that guy help her by telling the other lady to give her a CO2 cartridge?" and "Didn't that guy help her get her wheel back-on?" I'm not asking whether Chrissie broke the rules (in Golf she'd have been DQd) but in my thinking about it, I wonder why it is that the IM and HIM organizers don't allow some assistance to people who have mechanical issues during the race? I mean people pay good money to race, they dedicate themselves to training for months to get there and then if a chain breaks, or a cable breaks, they can't get assistance right? Seems to me that the rules should be arranged to make it possible for people to finish a race even when they come-across bad luck. Thoughts? |
| 2009-07-28 1:54 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
| Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? The race provides roving SAG to fix mechanical issues. So if you break a chain, etc,. your day isn't over. Lots of folks here have suffered through riding on one crank until mechanical could assist and riding fixed gears jimmied up when their derailleur broke I suppose the idea is that everyone can get race supported mechanical aid, but one shouldn't be "lucky" to break down near the spectator with a chain tool or extra CO2 than the one that didn't. |
| 2009-07-28 1:56 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Champion  9600    Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? You are allowed to receive assistance from another competitor. In regards to the other people around her who seemed to be helping, I think the officials gave her some slack. there was at some point a referee right next to her. |
| 2009-07-28 2:03 PM in reply to: #2313176 |
Veteran 239 Kalispell, MT | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? bryancd - 2009-07-28 12:56 PM You are allowed to receive assistance from another competitor. I've been wondering about that since last year when I first watched the show... why was it OK that the other rider tossed a CO2 cartridge to her??? Thanks for that clarification... I have also always remembered the other ladies talking about how they hadn't seen the last of her, and she'd be passing them soon enough... How cool is it when people racing for the same prize help the #1 competitor out of a bind, KNOWING she was gonna come back and kick their azz??  I'm still an absolute newby - only barely finished one sprint tri - and I'm continuing to be amazed at how awesome this sport and these crazy tri geeks are!! Edited by MelH 2009-07-28 2:05 PM |
| 2009-07-28 2:04 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
| Master 2009 Charlotte, NC | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? I thought she (Wellington) was docked 10 minutes for the assist? Am I remembering wrong? |
| 2009-07-28 2:07 PM in reply to: #2313176 |
| Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? bryancd - 2009-07-28 11:56 AM You are allowed to receive assistance from another competitor. In regards to the other people around her who seemed to be helping, I think the officials gave her some slack. there was at some point a referee right next to her. I've always wondered about that. Quick google search pulls up the Eagleman rules. With regard to mechanicals (number 22 on the bike, assistance is allowed from "official race personnel", page 3 number 22.. No mention of other competitors http://www.tricolumbia.org/Eagleman/IronMan_Race_Rules_2009.pdf There's probably a rule somewhere saying it's OK, and it's not one likely to be enforced anyway |
| 2009-07-28 2:14 PM in reply to: #2313176 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? bryancd - 2009-07-28 1:56 PM You are allowed to receive assistance from another competitor. In regards to the other people around her who seemed to be helping, I think the officials gave her some slack. there was at some point a referee right next to her. Not sure where you get this but it's not in the USAT rules. I asked my rgional head of officials for a clarification some time back but never got an answer. Maybe I'll ask Charlie Crawford. 3.4 Race Conduct. All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this Section 3.4: d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty. |
| 2009-07-28 2:15 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
| Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? Well, if it's a USAT race, then bear's quote is pretty clear, race officials only. |
| 2009-07-28 2:16 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? My understanding is that the rule pohibits "outside assistance", meaning those not involved in the race. That might be where the wiggle room is. Funny enough, I danced on this rule at my race two weeks ago. I had just run past an aid station and the volunteers dropped the ball and couldn't get me any water in time and I was dying! It was mile 9 of my Half and I was getting really hot. About 1/4 mile down the road, a car pulls up along me and it's my friend Teri. She had finsihed the Olympic and she and her boyfriend were leaving. She gave me a big jug of water but I figured it was ok as she did at least do the race!  Like I said, this could be a misreading of the rule or a convenient interrpretation I had heard and I got away with it. Edited by bryancd 2009-07-28 2:19 PM |
| 2009-07-28 2:18 PM in reply to: #2313232 |
| Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? bryancd - 2009-07-28 12:16 PM My understanding is that the rule pohibits "outside assistance", meaning those not involved in the race. That might be where the wiggle room is. Funny enough, I danced on this rule at my race two weeks ago. I had just run past an aid station and the volunteers dropped the ball and couldn't get me any water in time and I was dying! It was mile 9 of my Half and I was getting really hot. About 1/4 mile down the road, a car pulls up along me and it's my friend Teri. She had finsihed the Olympic and she and her boyfriend were leaving. She gave me a big jug of water but I figured it was ok as she did at least do the race! cheater Sorry, now I have this mental image of you running along with a moonshine-like jug of water |
| 2009-07-28 2:20 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? LOL! No, it was one of those plastic ones that campers use. I figured it was ok as the volunteers missed me.  hey, nice 10,000+ posts, Chris! Edited by bryancd 2009-07-28 2:20 PM |
| 2009-07-28 2:22 PM in reply to: #2313232 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? bryancd - 2009-07-28 2:16 PM My understanding is that the rule pohibits "outside assistance", meaning those not involved in the race. That might be where the wiggle room is. Funny enough, I danced on this rule at my race two weeks ago. I had just run past an aid station and the volunteers dropped the ball and couldn't get me any water in time and I was dying! It was mile 9 of my Half and I was getting really hot. About 1/4 mile down the road, a car pulls up along me and it's my friend Teri. She had finsihed the Olympic and she and her boyfriend were leaving. She gave me a big jug of water but I figured it was ok as she did at least do the race! Like I said, this could be a misreading of the rule or a convenient interrpretation I had heard and I got away with it. Seems to me it's a pretty liberal interpretation. The rule I posted says "UNAUTHORIZED assistance,' not "OUTSIDE assistance," and specifically limits assistance to "a race official." Edit: Question posed to the USAT Head of Officials, since this comes up occasionally. Edited by the bear 2009-07-28 2:35 PM |
| 2009-07-28 2:27 PM in reply to: #2313241 |
| Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? bryancd - 2009-07-28 12:20 PM LOL! No, it was one of those plastic ones that campers use. I figured it was ok as the volunteers missed me. hey, nice 10,000+ posts, Chris!riding the couch for a month rather than training does wonders for one's post count..... ah hell, I can train and post anyway |
| 2009-07-28 2:38 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Expert 716 | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? From what I remember, another racer was going to file an official complaint, but the she still would have won despite the time penalty. |
| 2009-07-28 2:43 PM in reply to: #2313230 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? the bear - 2009-07-28 3:14 PM bryancd - 2009-07-28 1:56 PM You are allowed to receive assistance from another competitor. In regards to the other people around her who seemed to be helping, I think the officials gave her some slack. there was at some point a referee right next to her. Not sure where you get this but it's not in the USAT rules. I asked my rgional head of officials for a clarification some time back but never got an answer. Maybe I'll ask Charlie Crawford. 3.4 Race Conduct. All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this Section 3.4: d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty. Is the IM Corporate under USAT rules or are they under WTC? Maybe they have a different interpretation under those rules. And even if she did receive a 10 min penalty, it wouldn't have mattered since she finished 15 min ahead of 2nd. That's insane! |
| 2009-07-28 2:49 PM in reply to: #2313299 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? GomesBolt - 2009-07-28 2:43 PM the bear - 2009-07-28 3:14 PM bryancd - 2009-07-28 1:56 PM You are allowed to receive assistance from another competitor. In regards to the other people around her who seemed to be helping, I think the officials gave her some slack. there was at some point a referee right next to her. Not sure where you get this but it's not in the USAT rules. I asked my rgional head of officials for a clarification some time back but never got an answer. Maybe I'll ask Charlie Crawford. 3.4 Race Conduct. All participants in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must adhere to the rules in this Section 3.4: d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty. Is the IM Corporate under USAT rules or are they under WTC? Maybe they have a different interpretation under those rules. And even if she did receive a 10 min penalty, it wouldn't have mattered since she finished 15 min ahead of 2nd. That's insane! USAT rules with the occasional modification (e.g., Time-out penalties rather than time added). This could be one of those modifications but certainly wasn't outlined to us when I officiated IM70.3NO. |
| 2009-07-28 5:12 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Master 1439 Calgary, AB Silver member | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? A guy at a race had his wetsuit zipper get stuck and he couldn't get out, so another racer stopped for a sec and helped him out. Interested if that's legal. |
| 2009-07-28 6:46 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? I need to post a retraction. I had forgotten this story, but a few years ago a guy I knew over at Triscoop.com forums received a penalty for giving a GU to his friend while they were both on the bike. The friend got the penalty for accepting, not the guy giving it. he stopped with his buddya s he felt bad and waited at the tent with him. But the coverage of the 2008 Kona race certainly glossed over that and somehow it was then that I heard that it was ok for Chrissy to take a CO2 from a fellow athlete. Now they have that precedent on film, so I'm sure they will need to be a bit flexible on the rule when it comes to athlete to athlete assistance. And I was kidding when I said it was ok for me to take water from my friends car. It was a rule violation. |
| 2009-07-28 9:14 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Extreme Veteran 510 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? Allowing asssistance by another competetor is a WTC and only apllies to IM's not other USAT tris. It is one of those exceptions alloed to WTC. And the assistance is only allowed by competators still in the race, if you have finished and your chip has been turned in you now only count as just another spectator. |
| 2009-07-28 9:23 PM in reply to: #2313164 |
Extreme Veteran 510 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? More directly to the OPs question, if you were to allow any outside assistance. At this weekends IMLP my tri team had about 30 racers and a 30+ support team. If the races were to allow outside assistance we could/would maybe have 10+ people on bikes loaded down with spare parts riding the course backwards ready to get any team member back in the race asap. Or what's to stop someone from having there personal support vehicle/bike. how fair would that be? how would you write a rule allowing random help and not dedicated aid? |
| 2009-07-28 9:46 PM in reply to: #2314128 |
Master 2426 Central Indiana | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? StarGazer - 2009-07-28 10:23 PM More directly to the OPs question, if you were to allow any outside assistance. At this weekends IMLP my tri team had about 30 racers and a 30+ support team. If the races were to allow outside assistance we could/would maybe have 10+ people on bikes loaded down with spare parts riding the course backwards ready to get any team member back in the race asap. Or what's to stop someone from having there personal support vehicle/bike. how fair would that be? how would you write a rule allowing random help and not dedicated aid? How? Just write a rule paralleling UCI's (pro cycling) allowing outside assistance. Make IM events just like European grand cycling tours but with logo-laden support boats & support runners. Is it too late to copyright "Tours de Ironman"... |
| 2009-07-28 9:53 PM in reply to: #2313207 |
Master 1404 Eagle Mountain, Utah | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? tricrazy - 2009-07-28 1:04 PM I thought she (Wellington) was docked 10 minutes for the assist? Am I remembering wrong? It took her about 10 minutes from the time she flatted to the time she got going again. |
| 2009-07-29 10:52 AM in reply to: #2313164 |
Member 51 | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? I was curious about this so I looked at the 2008 WC athlete's guide. http://ironman.com/assets/files/races/worldchampionship/pdf/2008_Ford_Ironman_World_Championship_Athlete_Guide.pdf On page 5, it says that they will be using a modified version of the USAT rules and applying a "3 strikes" system. 3 rule violations, in any combination, result in DQ. The only rule violation that results in any time penalty is drafting, which is 4 minutes in a penalty tent on the course. The rules on assistance on the bike are on page 14: "9) No individual support allowed. Ample aid and food stations will be provided. Friends, family members, coaches or supporters of any type may NOT bike, drive or run alongside athlete, may not pass food or other items to athlete and should be warned to stay completely clear of all athletes to avoid disqualification. It is incumbent upon each athlete to reject immediately any attempt to assist, follow or escort." "12) Each athlete must be individually responsible for repair and maintenance of their own bike." I think the most reasonable reading of these rules is that support from other athletes is not allowed and is a violation. I can see how a person can read them to allow support from other athletes, but I think it's a stretch. In any event, even if you call a violation on Wellington for accepting assistance, and one on Keat for providing assistance, there's no time penalty and as long as they didn't have two other violations, they are not DQ'd. Seems okay to me. |
| 2009-07-29 3:55 PM in reply to: #2314966 |
Extreme Veteran 510 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Why no assistance during IMs? this from the IM UK site Each athlete must be individually responsible for repair and maintenance of their own bike. Assistance by anyone, excluding other athletes, other than IRONMAN UK bike technical support officials will be grounds for disqualification. Each cyclist should be prepared to handle any possible mechanical malfunction. Technical support by IRONMAN UK technical support officials does not include the normal changing of flat tires. The rules document linked on the NA IM sites: |
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