A BQ Quest...

My BQ included greater mileage, more and longer long runs (6 20-24m) with some long runs at MP and weekly Tempo runs that lengthened over time. I did a 30K tune-up race three weeks before at less than BQ.  It was that race that convinced me I would beat the goal.

Your ultra attempt is like running two marathons 6 months apart to me  (with a few extra miles for fun ).  Other than the fun factor, what's the point of the extra distance? You can build your base and improve your pace by training for a full marathon or 30K at a pace less than BQ which will also give you good guidance for the upcoming training towards your ultimate goal.

If it were me, I would do a Spring marathon on normal terrain, a longer race pre-BQ attempt (30k if you can find it) and crush it come race day.

If you really want it, my suggestion is a very simple one:

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Marathoning-Pete-Pfitzinger/dp/0736034315/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216850191&sr=1-1

Read it, follow the 24 week 55 and under plan and use the McMillan pace tables based on a 1/2 marathon time that you run towards the end of this year or beginning of next year.

If you can build up your mileage over the rest of this year then you could even go for the 24 week 70 and under plan.

Seriously, it is all you need in my opinion to run your BQ time as you are already pretty close to it.  A solid year of 40+ mile weeks (with a little bit of a break in the winter) and then ramping up the mileage as the plan kicks in you'll will ne more than ready.

I used the under 55 mile 24 week plan to get my first BQ and ran a 3:12.  I have been averaging 1,400+ miles a year for the last few years.

My own marathon training always involves quite a bit more mileage.  If it were me, I'd really try to get it up closer to 75 mpw.  (I've qualified several times, best time being 2:50, though recently I'm focused on recovering from surgery.  I claim no special expertise  and I have no doubt that there are a million other ways to do it...)

I don't have any objection to most of that mileage being easy running, but even during build, I like to vary the pace a bit (not doing speedwork, but not always running slowly).  I find that the body responds well to a bit a variation.  So, for example, I'll randomly choose (if I'm feeling good) to pick up the race for the last mile of a 5-mile run, or for a few miles in the middle of a long run, or whatever.  I think it's important to do this at times when you are pretty confident that it will not wreck you for training the following day (or later that day if you are doubling up).

Why am I not suprised by this reply?    Hence, the hair-brained ultra idea...

3:47 marathon last fall

1:36 1/2 Marathon this spring

running my 1st 5k ever this Saturday - shooting for <21 minutes

Hey, you got how many weeks between them?  It'll be like a long practice.  I don't think doing it is bad at all.

OK Jorge, I went 21:23 at my 1st ever 5k this past weekend.  Way too fast for the first mile, recovered in 2nd mile and ran my A$$ of the last 1.1.  I think I could run a smarter race with more experience with the distance.

So, my race paces and VDOT's

• 1 mile:  6:10      VDOT of 47 (Jun'08)
• 5k:        21:23    VDOT of 46 (Jul'08)
• 1/2-M:  1:36:24  VDOT of 47 (Apr'08)

If I train properly, this would put me in the 3:21-3:25 range for my marathon effort at NYC in November.  A BQ would be 3:15 or a VDOT of 49.  I think I could get my VDOT values for 5k to 1/2-marathon races down in pretty quick order.

However, I'm unsure about my durability to put the miles of training required to get my marathon pace down, at least in the near future.  I know I need more miles.  I also know enough to build those miles all at my "E-pace."

Last year, when I ran 30+ miles per week, I got lots of signals from my body (patella-femoral, hip-flexor).  I also recall doing speedwork with increased volume.  I've read enough now to know that's not right. I will need to build mileage slowly at an easy pace.

Advanced Marathoning is on its way...  I already own/read Daniel's Running Formula.

The book is a great read in general in regards to running and even though I tend to be a techno weenie when it comes to some stuff, I find the Daniel's book to be just a little bit TOO scientific.  The P-D book is a much more concise read and their training ideology suits me well.

I think you'll get there, and you've got a whole season and a half to do it.  Just look at Waterdogg and his development to see what time and mileage can do for you!

I'm running the Indianapolis Monumental Marathon on November 1. Originally, my goal was to run this fall marathon under 3:25, as this corresponds well to my April half-marathon time of 1:36 (McMillan tables, VDOT).  Then, go for a 3:15 BQ next year.

However, I have some recent indications that my fitness has improved since April.  Most recently, I did a 4-mile tempo run with AHR of 162 and pace of 7:16.  However, there was some drift (1st mile ~159 and last mile ~164).  For reference, I ran Columbus last year (see Race Report) with an AHR of 160, and felt like I left about 5-10 minutes on the course.

I have a 10k on 9/13.  I'm thinking if I can get close to 42 minutes on the 10k, I've got a reasonable shot to BQ (3:15:59)?

The other test I'm thinking about is on a 16-mile run (Sept 21), do the last 10 miles, holding a 160-161bpm heart rate and see where my pace falls.  Does this seem like a good test?  Then, on race day, hold my HR in the 160-162 range for the first 20-miles and gut out the best possible effort for the last 10k.

Of course, I know weather will play a large roll.  It was near perfect in Columbus last year. 

Thoughts?

HR can vary too much to be reliable for what you are looking to pin down I think.  A 4-mi "tempo" run at a 7:16 pace correlates to ~3:20-3:25 marathon (depends on how hard the "tempo" was though as people often define this differently).

Run the 10k next week.  I would guess you need to go much closer to (or sub) 41 minutes to have a good shot at 3:15.  (41:30 would be a roughly "equivalent" performance, but I'm going to guess you'll have trouble extrapolating 10k to 42k based on your training mileage).

For your other "test", I would run those last 10 miles at ~7:25 pace.  See if you can hold it and how it feels.  Note HR if you want to as well, but don't pace off of it.

For my BQ this year I ran substantially more mileage than you're proposing. I ran a minimum of 45 miles/week for the 7 months prior to my BQ attempt, with the final months in the 70-80 mpw range. All training runs were done at a slower pace, but I raced about every other week and that was my speedwork. The races ranged from 2 miles up to half mary. During the course of the mileage buildup and the racing I PRed multiple times.

Food for thought:

The current issue of Colorado Runner magazine had an interview with Pete Pfitzinger. He was asked the following question:

What do you believe is the most important training advice to share with competitive long distance runners?

His response:

Consistency and mileage are the keys for success. By consistency, I mean accumulating mileage week after week. I can remember bumping up my weekly mileage from 90 to 110-120 during grad school and just getting in that solid mileage for several months took me to a whole new level. It is not nearly as successful to do only a few weeks of solid mileage because the adaptations occur due to a repeated stimulus over time. It is as though the body takes awile to be convinced to make the adaptations to improve endurance performance. You absolutely need this kind of aerobic development and there are no short cuts.


From my own perspective, with many marathon plans calling for maximum weekly mileage in the 45-60 mile range, they fall way short of the necessary training for a person to run a competitive race. While my mileage has never approached the level he advocates, I do know that by just bumping it up to 60-80 per week for several months took my running to a higher level. I am tempted to bump it up during the off season base building phase in preparation for Boston next year. How much mileage can a 52 year old do before it becomes too much and the body starts reacting negatively? I guess I'll find out if I can do it.

I'd disagree a bit there ......

I ran my first BQ on the P-D 24 week 55 and under plan and before that only averaged in the 30's for most of my weeks.  I ran a 3:12 after the run focus.  Then last year I ran an un-planned 3:15 on a tougher course on less mileage.  The key is consitency, not just high mileage.  Not everyone can fit in or even handle 60+ mile weeks.  I did a few 69 mile weeks in my build for my sub-3 attempt and that was tough to do with life and available time.  And I also ended up getting the flu which destroyed my attempt at it.

But you're capable of running much faster. 

Some people would not even need to run as much as you in order to break 3:00 (your buddy Lance, for instance).  The volume needed to run some absolute time will vary widely from person to person.  But the ability to better tap any specific individual's potential requires consistency and increasing training loads.

JohnnyKay - 2008-09-05 12:18 PM But you're capable of running much faster. 

Some people would not even need to run as much as you in order to break 3:00 (your buddy Lance, for instance).  The volume needed to run some absolute time will vary widely from person to person.  But the ability to better tap any specific individual's potential requires consistency and increasing training loads.

No doubt, and I was on the path to show that, just didn't work out and I do not have the desire to focus on running to get those faster times anymore (at least not for a bit).  My "potential" shows that I would be good for a sub-3 with the right training.

My point is that to just get the BQ, it is not necessarily a must to do really high mileage weeks.  Just consistent ones (as we've both mentioned).  Of course higher mileage is not a bad thing at all, just not feasible for everyone.

Edit:  And to echo smilford's post ...... it is pretty amazing what running with people above your ability will do to your effort and focus.  The guy I ran with yesterday is a 2:40-ish marathon (masters category even) and the focus to stay even with him on the run was really high and it felt great to step it up a little bit.  Find a running group that is a little above your current ability and work to stay with them.  You'll be surprised how much quicker you will build up your abilities as long as you stay smart and healthy!