General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swimming straight doesn't matter very much Rss Feed  
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2009-06-29 11:29 AM

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Subject: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
There's a lot of emphasis on sighting and swimming straight.  But a little math seems to show me that it doesn't matter very much.  Imagine a 1500m swim course that's a straight line.  The swimmer sights every 75m, and every time, he's off by 15m horizontally and returns to the direct course over the next 75 meters.  That's 10 cycles of sighting and correction of a substantial error in a 1500m race.  The total distance swam would be 1529.7 meters.  If the swimmer swims at a 1:45/100m pace, that's a total swim time of 26:46 as opposed to 26:15 if he swam straight.  It's still 31 seconds, but not the disaster that many make it out to be.  And being off by 15m every 75m is a huge error.  It's as though in a 25m pool swimming with your eyes closed, you end up two lanes over. 


2009-06-29 11:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
yea, that drift isn't that bad... assuming, that the fixture you are siting on is moving and/or clear day.. minimal current

ive seen some swimmer get way off course.. 1000m turned 1600m.. 600 for avg swimmer is maybe 12 min..plus or minus.. that's huge to make up

everything matters, in my opinion.. small drifts will happen, but large ones will cost you..
2009-06-29 11:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much

Swimming doesn't matter much period -- straight, crooked or otherwise.  But that's a different topic.

2009-06-29 11:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
not to mention how much you slow down everytime you turn, sight and realize you are off course, hit a bouy, miss one and have to come back, etc.

come race sometiem, you swim crooked, i'll go striaght, we'll see what happens;-)
2009-06-29 12:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much

Maybe I am wrong, but sighting every 75 meters doesn't seem like enough. How often should you sight?

2009-06-29 12:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
btorr12 - 2009-06-29 12:01 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but sighting every 75 meters doesn't seem like enough. How often should you sight?



That's my point.  Put your head down and swim.  The little zig-zags of infrequent siting don't amount to very much. If there's no current and you can swim down the lane at the pool with your eyes closed and not hit the lane marker in the fist few yards, you're probably swimming straight enough.

Likewise, if you want to avoid traffic in a mass start and can start 20m to the outside to the first turn buoy that is 500m away, you'll only swim an extra 40 centimeters or 16 inches to avoid traffic


2009-06-29 12:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
kcb203 - 2009-06-29 12:09 PM
btorr12 - 2009-06-29 12:01 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but sighting every 75 meters doesn't seem like enough. How often should you sight?



That's my point.  Put your head down and swim.  The little zig-zags of infrequent siting don't amount to very much. If there's no current and you can swim down the lane at the pool with your eyes closed and not hit the lane marker in the fist few yards, you're probably swimming straight enough.

Likewise, if you want to avoid traffic in a mass start and can start 20m to the outside to the first turn buoy that is 500m away, you'll only swim an extra 40 centimeters or 16 inches to avoid traffic


You should try that sometime.  You're not going to be 20m off.  You're going to end up all over the place.  There may be a few people who have such even strokes that they can get away with it, but that's not most of us.  If you did that in a pool, you'd probably hit the lane marker before you ever got to the end.

And I don't know about you, but I don't zig and zag.  I zig and zig and then zig again.  Watching others do OWS, that's seems to be the case for most.
2009-06-29 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
kcb203 - 2009-06-29 12:29 PM There's a lot of emphasis on sighting and swimming straight.  But a little math seems to show me that it doesn't matter very much.  Imagine a 1500m swim course that's a straight line.  The swimmer sights every 75m, and every time, he's off by 15m horizontally and returns to the direct course over the next 75 meters.  That's 10 cycles of sighting and correction of a substantial error in a 1500m race.  The total distance swam would be 1529.7 meters.  If the swimmer swims at a 1:45/100m pace, that's a total swim time of 26:46 as opposed to 26:15 if he swam straight.  It's still 31 seconds, but not the disaster that many make it out to be.  And being off by 15m every 75m is a huge error.  It's as though in a 25m pool swimming with your eyes closed, you end up two lanes over. 


If I swam at Philly yesterday the way you describe and lost 31 seconds, I would have dropped 3 spots in my age group.  Smile
For someone faster than I am, that could mean the difference between 1st place and 4th.



Edited by TriMyBest 2009-06-29 12:18 PM
2009-06-29 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
I think your math assumes you get back on course by swimming straight? I'd think if you go off course by 15m in 75m, you're going to overshoot all of the adjustments as well.
2009-06-29 12:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
I'm thinking if I tried sighting every 75m, I'd end up going in circles. 

Sighting without messing up my stroke rthym is a weakness that I'm working on.
2009-06-29 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
DerekL - 2009-06-29 10:16 AM
kcb203 - 2009-06-29 12:09 PM
btorr12 - 2009-06-29 12:01 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but sighting every 75 meters doesn't seem like enough. How often should you sight?



That's my point.  Put your head down and swim.  The little zig-zags of infrequent siting don't amount to very much. If there's no current and you can swim down the lane at the pool with your eyes closed and not hit the lane marker in the fist few yards, you're probably swimming straight enough.

Likewise, if you want to avoid traffic in a mass start and can start 20m to the outside to the first turn buoy that is 500m away, you'll only swim an extra 40 centimeters or 16 inches to avoid traffic


You should try that sometime.  You're not going to be 20m off.  You're going to end up all over the place.  There may be a few people who have such even strokes that they can get away with it, but that's not most of us.  If you did that in a pool, you'd probably hit the lane marker before you ever got to the end.

And I don't know about you, but I don't zig and zag.  I zig and zig and then zig again.  Watching others do OWS, that's seems to be the case for most.


Agreed.   At a 1:45 pace cited by the OP, 75 yards is about 1:15 of swimming off course.  You are going to be way off course in that amount of time.

But please, don't bother to swim straight.  I don't mind if you come out of the water behind me

Edited by ChrisM 2009-06-29 12:21 PM


2009-06-29 12:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
kcb203 - 2009-06-29 1:09 PM

btorr12 - 2009-06-29 12:01 PM

Maybe I am wrong, but sighting every 75 meters doesn't seem like enough. How often should you sight?



That's my point. Put your head down and swim. The little zig-zags of infrequent siting don't amount to very much. If there's no current and you can swim down the lane at the pool with your eyes closed and not hit the lane marker in the fist few yards, you're probably swimming straight enough.

Likewise, if you want to avoid traffic in a mass start and can start 20m to the outside to the first turn buoy that is 500m away, you'll only swim an extra 40 centimeters or 16 inches to avoid traffic



why is it then that the best open water swimmers, and triathletes, are sighting every 1-3 STROKES, while a lot of the AG people i see going off course are sighting every 10-20? guess who is swimming faster?

every single time you turn, you slow down, its more than just the speed applied to the distance. have you tried any of this or are you just doing math?
2009-06-29 12:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
TriMyBest - 2009-06-29 1:17 PM
kcb203 - 2009-06-29 12:29 PM There's a lot of emphasis on sighting and swimming straight.  But a little math seems to show me that it doesn't matter very much.  Imagine a 1500m swim course that's a straight line.  The swimmer sights every 75m, and every time, he's off by 15m horizontally and returns to the direct course over the next 75 meters.  That's 10 cycles of sighting and correction of a substantial error in a 1500m race.  The total distance swam would be 1529.7 meters.  If the swimmer swims at a 1:45/100m pace, that's a total swim time of 26:46 as opposed to 26:15 if he swam straight.  It's still 31 seconds, but not the disaster that many make it out to be.  And being off by 15m every 75m is a huge error.  It's as though in a 25m pool swimming with your eyes closed, you end up two lanes over. 


If I swam at Philly yesterday the way you describe and lost 31 seconds, I would have dropped 3 spots in my age group.  Smile
For someone faster than I am, that could mean the difference between 1st place and 4th.



I think that the point here is that for people not worrying about a podium finish, starting wide and getting a little off course isn't going to ruin your day. 

**although I'd definitely try to sight more than every 75 meters**

Edited by Bioteknik 2009-06-29 12:29 PM
2009-06-29 12:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
Just curious, but are you only looking at the math?  It looks like a great idea on paper, but in practice you're going to find that a lot of people will end up doing circles.  How much speed do you lose from sighting?  I can guarantee it's nothing near what you'll lose sighting every 40 strokes vs. every 5 or 6.
2009-06-29 12:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
You have too much time on your hands   
2009-06-29 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
You have too much time on your hands   

I noticed that all of the faster guys are in the pool practicing on ways to better spot buoys while all of the slower guys are trying to find mathematical equations on how to avoid spotting buoys while on land and behind a desk... just my observations


2009-06-29 12:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much

If you swim crooked as shwon in the figure, see how much longer you actually did...





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2009-06-29 1:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
My point in the original post was not that it's not worthwhile to sight often or to swim straight, but that the outcome of not doing so is not so bad for an average swimmer. 

As to the diagram above, it shows a track at 45 degrees to the course, then making a 90 degree turn and cutting back across the course. I think that if you tracked a really crooked swimmer, it still wouldn't look nearly as bad as that example. 

I'm still new to this, but perhaps I'm a preternaturally straight (albeit slow) swimmer.  I did my first OWS on Sunday, and everytime I looked up, I was on course within a few degrees.  I started sighting less and less frequently but never really went off course.  Perhaps I'm just lucky that way.  I did notice that the intermediate buoys were not in a straight line with the turn buoys, and I seemed to be the only one swimming staight to the turn buoy instead of hugging the intermediate buoys.  (It was a clear, calm day, so I had no trouble seeing 500m ahead to the turn buoy.)  But by my same logic, those who swam 20m out of their way horizontally to follow the buoy line only swam an extra meter or so as opposed to trying to follow a perfectly straight line.
2009-06-29 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
kcb203 - 2009-06-29 1:17 PM My point in the original post was not that it's not worthwhile to sight often or to swim straight, but that the outcome of not doing so is not so bad for an average swimmer. 

As to the diagram above, it shows a track at 45 degrees to the course, then making a 90 degree turn and cutting back across the course. I think that if you tracked a really crooked swimmer, it still wouldn't look nearly as bad as that example. 

I'm still new to this, but perhaps I'm a preternaturally straight (albeit slow) swimmer.  I did my first OWS on Sunday, and everytime I looked up, I was on course within a few degrees.  I started sighting less and less frequently but never really went off course.  Perhaps I'm just lucky that way.  I did notice that the intermediate buoys were not in a straight line with the turn buoys, and I seemed to be the only one swimming staight to the turn buoy instead of hugging the intermediate buoys.  (It was a clear, calm day, so I had no trouble seeing 500m ahead to the turn buoy.)  But by my same logic, those who swam 20m out of their way horizontally to follow the buoy line only swam an extra meter or so as opposed to trying to follow a perfectly straight line.


Here's the problem, it's not going to always be a clear day with no current and no sun in your eyes.  Current will make you drift off course, waves will drag you closer to shore, and the sun in your eyes and high winds can easily send you way off course before you realize it.  While you've taken your own limited example and applied to a simple math equation, you've overgeneralized to make it fit.  Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, but the application of sighting goes far beyond your typical flat straight OWS.

But by all means, do what works for you.  If you can get away with sighting every 75m, by all means go for it.  But for the average triathlete/swimmer, I think waiting to sight every 75m is extremely bad advice.  Just my opinion of course.
2009-06-29 2:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
I agree, in a high school geometry class, you'd be spot on. Problem is you're missing a ton of variables, and when you add them into the equation, swimming 15meters off course is doing pretty well by most standards. I see people to swim 15 meters off course 30 meters into the race and they are pointed almost perpendicular from the course at that point. For them to stop and correct is a big deal as they will immediately start swimming off course again b/c most favor one side to swim off course (ie they always drift right).Throw in a wave of 200 people and another 200 people coming from behind in another 5 minutes, currents, wind, waves, sun in your eyes, etc and you have a big problem.

As others have mentioned, if you can swim 50-75meters without sighting then that's a heck of a good thing, just be prepared when the conditions get tougher. I'll stick to sighting every 4-6 strokes.
2009-06-29 2:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
I'm a big believer of not sighting at all or very little the way most people think of sighting.

I breath best on my right while swimming,, I just line up on the far left and when I turn my head to breath I see people so I'm basically ok.  we are all going to the same bouy..


2009-06-29 2:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
Nah, swimming straight doesn't matter at all and neither does sighting.

I HIGHLY recommend that approach to everyone in the M35-39 field!







(Especially in you are in the same race as me .... I need all the advantages in the water that I can get!)
2009-06-29 2:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
My OWS says otherwise. Right now I swim an average of about 1:55/100 in pool over distance. However my Oly 2 weekends ago my average pace was, if I remember right, 2:18/100. Not because I paniced or bad conditions (water in the lake was basically flat) but because my sighting sucked. In fairness I have been working on it and getting better but when I first was doing OWS with sigting, taking a look every third breath I was still off course by a significant margin when swimming across an 80 meter course (dock to dock). The graph up there looks a lot like what peoples courses actually appear as in races.

For you it sounds like that might be true and work really well but for a lot of is I am guessing that sighting and OW Navigation can add a significant distance to a swim.
2009-06-29 2:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
I love pool swims with that little back line on the bottom and getting a huge push off the wall, plus a little breath..


however it's not always sighting that causes difference in what you can avg in a pool and an OWS...

I remember that my stroke count last year when our pool switched from 25 -50 meters went up higher than x2.  It would make perfect sense to believe that it would just double, and times would be the same but it's different. there are a few little things that change as well and  it's more so in OWS. 
2009-06-29 3:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming straight doesn't matter very much
I can't speak for anybody else, but when I find myself off the line that I should be swimming on, I know I work too hard to get back into the position that I should be. I automatically get into the hammer mode to try and make up for the little bit of time that I spent getting out of line. Over a long course, where you msy zig/zig a lot, that can really add up as the HR and effort get too high.

Much more efficient, and I think, faster, to sight often, swim straight and stay off the roller coaster.
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