What % MHR for marathon

For my last marathon, I averaged 165, max as 190.  I have no idea what my MHR is, or any of that other stuff, because I don't train by HR at all.

Any particular reason for asking?

Ideal race pace would be around 3 - 5 beats off of your LT.

My LT was around 180 and my best marathon I averaged around 176.

When I actually tracked it and looked at it.  Since losing my HRM after Boston this year I have not made any real effort to replace it.  I never trained by it anyways.

Last marathon I ran at my easy/steady pace (1:15 slower of marathon pace) but I wasn't racing it. In terms of HR, I don't know, don't track MHR cuz it is useless, but if I was running by HR I would go with what Rick said; I would set my zones via LTHR and I would run 3-5 bpm below it.

I have no idea what my MHR is.  My LT is 170 and I will run in the 158-164 bpm range (lower during first half and drift to 164 toward the end).

Besides aerobic fitness, one must also have the muscular endurance to support a near LT effort over 3+ hours.  For the less experienced marathoner, or the undertrained, running just a few BPM under LT would be VERY hard.  The heart and lungs may be able to sustain the effort, but at some point, the legs may quit...  It really comes down to how prepared one is for the marathon.  I imagine if one has several weeks of 60+ miles and 4-5 runs of 18+ miles, running a few beats below LT is a good strategy.

For me I have a solid aerobic base coming off a HIM in August.  Since then, however, I've averaged 35mpw with only two weeks above 40 miles and only two runs of 19+ miles.   So.... I'll average about 8bpm uner LT for my marathon effort in...gasp...18 days!

Do not forget about two things if you plan to race by HR:

1) Cardiac drift - your HR will naturally go up at the same level of effort over time in a marathon (even some in a half).  So if you back it off towards the end of the race because your HR seems high, you may be short changing yourself for time/pace.

2) Your race HR and LT may be (typically are) higher than even stressful training sessions.  Natural body reaction to loads placed on it by the situation.  So while you may think you are running at your LT and back it off, you really might be fine!

Hmmmm... looks like I should probably do an LT field test.

Did dig up the results from the LT (lab) test from ~1 year ago: LT pace is 8:08, HR of 173.  Saturday's mary was avg of 8:08 and 174. 

I don't race by HR but I do use HR to confirm what McMillan is telling me about my Marathon Pace. There seems to be a pretty wide variance umong the experts regarding HR and marathon pace.

The best estimate that I have come up with and one that seems to work well with a bunch of my fast marathoner friends is 85-90% of Max. (Depending on where LT/AT is)

My LT is just a tick or two under 91% and so MP for the first part of my race is usually in the mid 80s and works up toward 90 as the race wears on.

Here is an interesting chart that has been passed around before that shows the different HR recommendations for different race paces:

Waterdog is on the money-

Remember LT is trainable and depends majorly on your fitness level in contrast to less movable physiological aspects like VO2max - 1 year ago it may be one thing, and now it might be as much as 10 bpm different.  I have a max of 196 and have averaged in the low 180's before for a marathon.  I usually allow for a 5-10 bpm drift as the race goes on.  It is usually pretty steady drifts upwards by maybe 5 or so over the course of a marathon till the last three or four miles when I start to push it.   

I determine marathon pace, I race a 15k or half marathon 2-3 weeks before the race-just before taper (usually I can find one of those during marathon season) then I use the race calculators to predict my pace.  I usually race the 15K with tired legs to be kind of conservative in my estimate.  That is my guess starting out and after about mile 13 I kind of reassess the situation.   I have the data from old performances and kind of check my HR throughout kind of as feedback of how I am feeling versus what my HR is telling me.  Early on go by what you have measured, as the race progresses go by feel.  That is how I do it and have not faded yet.

I go with the "just race it, baby" approach.

I have a general goal time, but it's seldom concrete.  I definitely don't have a pacing plan; I find them entirely too rigid to match the reality of a race.

Any thoughts on marathon pace as it relates to Lactate Threshold Pace?  I just did the LT field test this morning and averaged 6:59/mi over 30 minutes.  Assuming that is my LT and is equivalent to 10k-15k race pace, McMillan has me at a 3:17-3:23 marathon...

Now for me to BQ, I'd need a 3:15:59.  So, of course I'm going to ignore the tables, and probably blow up.  But, that's why we race, right?

errrr.... What about the adequately trained athlete?  I guess the extent of training/fitness determines how close one can race to LT pace.   I'd argue that no one is running a marathon at threshold pace if threshold pace is equal to effort one can sustain for about an hour.

What is your LT (estimated from test) as a percentage of max HR?

The table above (That I posted) will give you a pretty solid range of where to run your marathon pace at. Then take that pace range and try running some miles at the end of a medium/long run to see how it feels. If you can lay down 10 miles @ MP, you will know for sure if the pace is reasonable or not.

FWIW: When my friends suggested that I try running 10 miles @ 90% of MaxHR, (My LT is ~91% of Max) my first thought was "No Way that' gonna happen". Although I felt like I was "On Edge" the whole run, I finished strong and definitely felt like I could run a lot farther at that pace. (It felt comfortably hard)

Of course, MP is not the same as final average pace of a marathon. Level of effort increases as the race wears on and you either slow down, your increase your effort to maintain an even pace.

I have no idea what my MHR is...

On Saturday I did exactly what you prescribe...  This was a day after a 8-mile Friday run and in my largest mileage week ever (42mi) that also included 4x1000m VO2max efforts on that Wednesday.  So, certainly not a taper week...

9mi EZ (8:40/mi) at 144bpm
10mi MP (7:24/mi) at 158-160 bpm (vs. 170 LT)
1.3mi CD (9:37/mi)

I was shooting for 7:27's (BQ Pace) and pretty much nailed each mile split.   It felt comfortably hard, certainly not a death march.  What I found is that it takes focus to maintain this pace.  You can't let the mind wander and maintain this type of effort.

I guess the McMillan tables and my lack of mileage has me doubting what this key workout is indicating.  The 5k, 10k and 15k times associated with a marathon seem like a big stretch to me; although a sub 1:33 1/2M seems doable.  I did a 1:36 back in April, but I know that I'm much fitter now.

With regard to MP and final average pace.  I'm thinking that I'll need to run the meat of the marathon in the 7:20 range to come up with a sub-3:16 (7:27 avg).

If you need a 7:27 average, then it doesn't really matter what your LT is.  You need to average a 7:27 or better.

I guess I'm not sure what you are asking.  Are you trying to determine a pacing strategy for the race?

I need you to come to Indianapolis and hold my hand for three hours and fifteen minutes...

Up until a month ago, I was planning on pacing to a 3:25.  I'm trying to determine if 3:15:59 is a pipe dream or possible...  Based on some key workouts, it seems possible.  So, I'm just fishing for input from more experience marathoners...

Sorry but then what is your HR for HM and 10k?

For me the LT is the 10k pace and 5 beats below is the HM pace

OK, fine.

Personally, I think predictor workouts aren't worth a whole lot, other than the mental aspect.  My personal bias, however.

I looked at your logs.  Looking at the paces, I'd say you have a decent shot at it, and it makes sense to try for it.  The 20 with 10 at MP was about as good an idea as you're going to get without actually doing the whole thing.

If you had more mileage, I'd say it's a sure thing, but I'm coming from a running background.  That's not to say you can't hit the goal, I still think you can.  I think that more mileage would make it more of a lock.

FWIW, I agree with Scout that it's possible so might as well go for it.  That said, I do think it's a long shot based just on what I see in terms of volume, pacing within that MP run and your 30min TT pace.  I'd guess it'll take some serious mental strength to hold pace over that last 10k, but I hope you go against my odds! 

For my last half that I raced and recorded, it was one of those perfect runs.  Right around 171 for average and only 183 for max.  I was completely in the zone on that race and was never working that hard from a breathing or HR standpoint.

My last 10k I recorded???  189 with a max of 195.  Last 5k recorded??  190 with a max of 201.

You run fast times, there is no reason your 10k pace shouldn't be well above LT and your half pace at LT.  My guess is your LT number that you are working from is not correct.

Interesting. I think we have different definitions of LT. For me is always 169 or 170. Whatever shape I am in. That is my average on 10k. 163-165 is for HM and 155 is my marathon pace.

I measured even in the medical lab on the treadmill with Conconi test. Always 169.

I don't think the defintion is the problem .......

There is absolutely no reason you cannot race a 10k above LT, especially considering you run in the mid - upper 3X's for your times.

My max HR is somewhere slightly above 200 (not measured in years) and I run my 5 and 10 k's at about 95% of that.

Just about every running coach that prescribes to HR training/racing says that faster runners can run a 1/2 right at their LT and a full just a few beats below (as I mentioned before).

The difference between the people who actually do it and those that don't is that the ones that do had a big dose of HTFU.  It becomes a mental battle more than a physical one because it hurts to run a long time that close to LT.

JK, Scout, Dog - You guys rock!!!  My thoughts exactly with the mileage.  Up until this year, my biggest week was 38 miles.  It's been tough getting there (patella femoral pain, plantar faciitis).  I've managed to run 39+ miles a few of the last several weeks.  I figure it's a 1 in 4 shot, but why not take it!?  Nothing ventured, nothing gained...