Tri Saddle Angle

I was told when I had my bike fitted that a close to flat positon is what you are aiming at but for comfort most riders use a very slightly downward facing postion.  To far downward and you are constantly having to "push" yourself back up.  Mine is not really discernable unless you take a sprit level?  I have never heard of an upward facing seat, but I think that it would be very uncomfortable - i.e. pressure where there should not be pressure?

Maybe play around with it and see what angle suits you best?

My bikes and nearly every other bike I have ever seen have had a flat or near flat saddle.  I couldn't imagine what the advantage to angling it forward would be.  In fact I could imagine that would put a strain on your triceps as you put more weight on them trying to keep from sliding forward off the saddle.

Flat or slightly downward is the norm.  NEVER have it pointing upwards as this tilts the pelvis back and you don't want that pressure as could cause back problems.

I'd say you should start flat  but for comfort/ back problems, you can tilt slightly down as that will open hip.  Also if your handlebars are low in front, tilting forward may help.  Maybe this is what they have done???

If you want to keep your saddle in that position then I suggest working on balance or putting your aerobars up a bit

Bzzzzzzzzt.  Completely wrong, care to play again????

At no point should your saddle EVER be pointed down.  The correct level is either flat or slightly above that (yes, angled back).  There are numerous reasons, all of which are detrimental to your power, fatigue and all around position.

If you are requiring yourself to angle it forward, your fit is wrong, plain and simple.

And it is not just me that says this, some of the top fit gurus out there also say the same thing (including Slowman - Dan Empfield - who trains fitters).  We even had a great little discussion on this over on ST.  I have NEVER fit anyone with a saddle angled below level.  And I never had anyone come back with problems because of that.

I'll play again.

Traditional saddles, for most riders: perhaps yes, but not always. 

I know triathletes who have been professionally fit (by reputable fitters i.e. Endurosport in Tronto, one of the foremost fitters) and the position that provided them with the optimal power output and endurance comfort dictated a slightly downward-angled, traditional saddle. In addition, the fit and position guidelines for the ISM Adamo saddles indicate a level to slightly downward-tilt to be optimum generally speaking. My saddle position, as with many other Adamo owners, is angled down slightly. Just sayin'. 

Bzzzzzzzt indeed. 

And it is still wrong.  At NO point do you EVER want to angle your saddle down.  Here is a portion of the discussion I mentioned.  The "quotes" part is me, the other part is Dan:

Not only is it a fatigue and position problem it is also a serious potential injury problem.

Edit:  Just think of it in simple terms.  When your saddle is angled forward, even minutely, with EVERY pedal stroke your body is pushing itself back to maintain balance on the saddle.  You can think of it as having your footstrike in front of you with running.  Every time you push down, you are fighting a force component that is pushing you back.  Wasted effort, higher energy loss to fight resistance, higher potential for injury to joints and tendons.

Again, if you are properly fit to a bike, you will never need to angle your seat below level.  And I will argue with "professional fitters" until we are blue in the face about that, because it is simply wrong to claim that it is a good position.  It is a "quick fix" to a much bigger overall fit problem that too many people take to make clients happy.

I have to agree based on my experience.

My current setup is completely flat.  That actually a change from my previous setup that had it UP a couple of degrees.

I had a long conversation with my fitter about this...  Basically, I kept feeling pressure when in aero, so I kept moving the saddle nose down (on my own), and the situation never go better AND it got to the point I was sliding down, losing power, etc.  (I was using a lot of energy just to keep from sliding down the saddle!)

The fitter said this is  common misconception, and shouldn't be done.  In fact, the opposite should have been done.  By raising the nose up a couple degrees past flat, worked wonders.  I felt more 'settled in', more powerful becuase I wasn't using energy to stay in the same spot, AND it reduced the pressure...

The Adamo is a saddle for people to find an "out" to bad fit issues.  Marketing is a wonderful thing ........

Bzzzzzzzzt.

I don't find this from personal experience. I sit on the edge of my Adamo, which is tilted about 5 degrees down in front. The front of my saddle is plumb with my BB centre, making the "effective" tip of my saddle (which does not exist) approx 3-5cm in front of my BB. I do not balance on the saddle at all - I have little pressure on the saddle, with my weight being supported by my pedals and legs, and to a much lesser extent, my forearms. My pedal drive pushes me forward, not backward. 

I'm not arguing with you on this one, Rick; I'll always give you props for being a cycling guru extrordinaire and one of our resident experts. However, I can speak from my personal experience and those which I have heard first-hand. A cookie-cuter approach to fitting in never correct.  There are some basic principles that are correct 99% of the time, but these are always exceptions to the rule. 

So my local FIST-certified bike fitter, who also trained extensively under Cobb, is just racing on the Adamo as an "out" to a bad fit? Or are you maybe just over-generalizing again based on your extensive but still not all-inclusive experience?

Fixed. 

To each their own.  Just not a big fan of the Adamo at all.  Everyone has their likes and dislikes.  I see it as a saddle that was designed as a crutch for bad positions.  Instead of correcting the position issues, they throw a piece of equipment at it to relieve pressure in that area.

The whole point of a proper fit is to have you sitting in the saddle with your sit bones directly over the clamp/post to maintain proper core support.  If you are on the nose all the time, your saddle position is wrong and you are doing yourself no favors.

Now, in a race, where you are trying to get every ounce of power down at ballz out pace you will see many people shift forward, myself included.  But that is short and powerful efforts, not all the time.  And since there is no rule to limit the forward position of the saddle in the USAT events (as there is for the UCI in cycling), you are only limited by the extent of the seat clamp and frame angles as to how far forward you go.

Ok since Daremo directly aimed this at me I feel I have to further comment but I am NOT trying to get into a fight here and I am ALWAYS happy to learn from more experienced people, cyclists etc

The bit I was basing my original post on was based on the USAT Level 1 course speaker on Cycling - Sergio Borges (USAT level III, USACycling level II).   

I personally think flat is best, especially on road bike but I could see that with a tri bike if someone was fitted with a very low position a slight angle downward for comfort of hip angle might help (me, i'd keep it flat and lessen the aerobar angle but each his own)

However is this confusion/ argument because of difference in tri vs road bikes?

In the level 3 (ie first level -oops edited) Cycling coach it does indeed say level or slightly tilted up (as per Daremo) but this is for a road bike AND it also says 

(1) some women prefer slight downward to relieve pressure on peritoneal area

(2) some men  opt slightly upward but this angle may lead to urologic or neuropathic problems

I was just trying to share my theoretical and personal knowledge. I am no way a bike fit expert and would always bow to those trained professionally. I always have my bike fit done by a professional and never mess around with it myself.

OK I'm here and ready to learn more!

Jackie

It does not matter what type of bike, the fit should be based on the same principles - comfort, power, efficiency.

There were a few things in the L3 manual that I disagreed with, but that is neither here nor there.  My beliefs and experience do not come solely from being a coach, they come from years in the industry as a salesman, mechanic, fitter and road/mtn racer.  True, I've never been to any "fit school" and I am not FIST certified or anything like that.  I've still fit hundreds of people on bikes (including some pretty decent amateur cyclists).  But then again, experience actually fitting and having direct feedback from athletes and clients is a lot more practical than something a book says.  Usually the two go hand in hand, but not always as you need to take what you read anywhere (including internet posts - mine as well) with a grain of salt.

You will always have conflicting opinions on what is best because every person is different and has different experiences.  But the idea of putting an athlete in a position where they have to work against their own body and core to support themselves is just bad news.  And again, if they are properly fit on the right equipment, they will not need to be put in that position in the first place.  It is the "easy" work-around to a bigger overall problem.  It doesn't solve the problem, it just finds a way around it to make it not so apparent.

I've learned two things I didn't know before

(1) that a downward angle is bad

(2) that Rick has firm opinions about things

Huh, who'd of thunk ........

Actually Empfield does not disagree with Cobb on the Adamo. Empfield has reviewed the Adamo on Slowtwitch and the last line of his review reads :"the $150 ISM Adamo definitely deserves a place alongside the premier tri saddles in the market". Daremo seems to be pretty much on his own with his opinion on the Adamo. Personally I have been FIST fitted multiple times on different bikes, and I was never close to being as comfortable as I am now on my Adamo with the saddle tipped forward as recommended.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ddles/blackwell.html

Hmm. Well, I don't know what this means, but I have an Adamo, and I love it.  But it isn't tilted forward -- it is dead level.  I play around with fit a lot, and read a lot about it.  That's it -- I'm certainly no pro, nor am I experienced.  But with the saddle tilted forward, I just cannot find a powerful and comfortable position.  And yes, I feel like I'm pushing myself back onto the saddle with every revolution (ETA:  with it tilted forward, not level).  But man do I love that Adamo saddle...

Bzzztttt!

I have nothing to add, just wanted to say that.

Bzzztttt! Bzzztttt! Bzzztttt!