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2009-02-12 12:12 PM

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Subject: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
If you run 3 times a week... Is there any reason not to run hard every time...???

I've read a number of articles on the FIRST (Furman Institute of Running
& Scientific Training - http://www.furman.edu/first/)running philosophy for training for anything from a 5k to a marathon... all on running 3 days a week... All the runs though are at faster paces than you would see in other (5 -6 day per week) running programs... seems like 2 days speed work and a 'faster' long run per week... with some cross training mixed in...

it seems like this would fit perfect with a triathlon training schedule... unless the concern is that youre not recovered enough from the runs to put in hard workouts in other disciplines...

i've poked around on other peoples training logs and noticed that some people tend to run hard every time.. and some dont...

just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts or advice on this...???





2009-02-12 12:16 PM
in reply to: #1958948

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Runner
Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???

How do you know those people run hard every time?

I seldom run hard.

2009-02-12 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
Listen to this guy about running ^^^^^^
2009-02-12 12:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:12 PM ... i've poked around on other peoples training logs and noticed that some people tend to run hard every time.. and some dont... just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts or advice on this...???

How can you determine they are running hard?  Simply by their pace in relation to others?

There are some BTers whose "easy" pace is in the 7:00 per mile range.  That would kill others to try and even sustain that for a short race.

"Running hard" all the time = recipe for injury and/or burnout.  Not a good strategy.

2009-02-12 12:22 PM
in reply to: #1958961

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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
good point... mainly by reading the notes... and seeing their training paces versus race paces...

i guess a bit of it is just assumption...
2009-02-12 12:27 PM
in reply to: #1958948

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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???

Like Rick said, running hard every time, even if it's just three times a week, is not a good idea.

Most elite runners who put in 100+ mile weeks don't run high intensity more than two, occasionally three times.  But they run a heck of a lot more than most people here, and have a heck of a lot more miles behind them.

Even with FIRST, you're not going as hard as you can on those three days.  And even then, there is supposed to be A LOT of crosstraining on the non-run days to build you up.  Additionally, FIRST is supposed to be used as prep for a specific race, and not a long-term strategy.



2009-02-12 12:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage...

however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...???

maybe i'm just way off here though....
2009-02-12 12:34 PM
in reply to: #1959001

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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

2009-02-12 12:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???

bscharff - 2009-02-12 11:27 AM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

What is your goal distance for triathlon? If it's Olympic, you are probably on the short side of sufficient run volume. If you are a sprinter, then 2-3 miles a week of speedwork is right on track. So to speak. :D

John 

2009-02-12 12:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John 

2009-02-12 12:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
Time to run more!



2009-02-12 12:39 PM
in reply to: #1959028

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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 1:36 PM
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John 

Personally, I disagree, but I believe that mileage is king, and you'll see greater long-term gains by pushing mileage over intensity.

2009-02-12 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 12:36 PM

Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John




actually... planning on working up to a half ironman this summer... and ve always seemed to do better by keeping my mileage low... maybe that was because i tended to push the pace on most runs... i'm just coming off of knee surgery (torn meniscus) about 2 1/2 months ago... so working my way back into it... i just took up running a few years ago... and my 5ks last summer were in the low 19s... not there now... i could run more... its just a matter of having time to get my bikes and swims in as well....
2009-02-12 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 12:39 PM

tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 1:36 PM
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John

Personally, I disagree, but I believe that mileage is king, and you'll see greater long-term gains by pushing mileage over intensity.




it sounds like maybe i should change my whole philosophy towards running and focus more on mileage than speed...???
2009-02-12 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
While I support speed work more than scout does, I still agree with him right now. 20 mpw is just too low to really expect too much out of. When increasing your mileage is good to keep it slow too.
2009-02-12 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:43 PM
actually... planning on working up to a half ironman this summer... and ve always seemed to do better by keeping my mileage low... maybe that was because i tended to push the pace on most runs... i'm just coming off of knee surgery (torn meniscus) about 2 1/2 months ago... so working my way back into it... i just took up running a few years ago... and my 5ks last summer were in the low 19s... not there now... i could run more... its just a matter of having time to get my bikes and swims in as well....


If you are coming off knee surgery, then you definitely want to keep the runs easy. The harder you push the longer it will take between runs. E.g. I had my ACL replaced, and if I ran hard it would get fluid on the knee, or need several days of not running to recover. If I ran easy, then it would be ready to run again the next day, or a bike day then run again (whatever, you get the point).

As stated above, your focus should be to increase miles. A by-product of increased miles is speed.


2009-02-12 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
okay... well i'm coachable... i'll focus on more distance, less speed...

thanks for the feedback!!!
2009-02-12 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:46 PM

Scout7 - 2009-02-12 12:39 PM

tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 1:36 PM
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John

Personally, I disagree, but I believe that mileage is king, and you'll see greater long-term gains by pushing mileage over intensity.




it sounds like maybe i should change my whole philosophy towards running and focus more on mileage than speed...???


Exactly.
2009-02-12 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
bscharff - 2009-02-12 11:43 AM
tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 12:36 PM
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John

actually... planning on working up to a half ironman this summer... and ve always seemed to do better by keeping my mileage low... maybe that was because i tended to push the pace on most runs... i'm just coming off of knee surgery (torn meniscus) about 2 1/2 months ago... so working my way back into it... i just took up running a few years ago... and my 5ks last summer were in the low 19s... not there now... i could run more... its just a matter of having time to get my bikes and swims in as well....

Well that definitely changes things. Keeping in mind the knee recovery, definitely you need to be upping the mileage. 20 mpw is way low for a HIM.

John 

2009-02-12 1:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
to tag onto this...
for newer triathletes, how should they evaluate "running hard" vs. "regular running" and how it relates to training when your plan is based on minutes.
im just curious for some feedback as originally when i was just getting started i had a knee injury because while i felt i could handle the speed and distance-my body told me otherwise.
So what is a good way for someone to evaluate and relate that to minutes based trainin?
2009-02-12 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:39 AM
tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 1:36 PM
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John

Personally, I disagree, but I believe that mileage is king, and you'll see greater long-term gains by pushing mileage over intensity.

Interesting. So if you have an athlete that is focused on sprints, how much would you up their mileage from 20? From my point of view, 20 is a bit on the low side for short distance tri, but still an acceptable total. (Although I would recommend more, shorter runs rather than 3 longer runs.)

John 



2009-02-12 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???

bscharff - 2009-02-12 12:12 PM If you run 3 times a week... Is there any reason not to run hard every time...??? I've read a number of articles on the FIRST (Furman Institute of Running & Scientific Training - http://www.furman.edu/first/)running philosophy for training for anything from a 5k to a marathon... all on running 3 days a week... All the runs though are at faster paces than you would see in other (5 -6 day per week) running programs... seems like 2 days speed work and a 'faster' long run per week... with some cross training mixed in... it seems like this would fit perfect with a triathlon training schedule... unless the concern is that youre not recovered enough from the runs to put in hard workouts in other disciplines... i've poked around on other peoples training logs and noticed that some people tend to run hard every time.. and some dont... just wondering if anyone else has any thoughts or advice on this...???

Yes you could follow this approach running only 3x a week and make those run more intense (like threshold and VO2 max) and the premise works around training load = duration/volume + intensity. The higher the training load the greater the fitness, if you can get the load higher via volume/duration (running more miles) then you can accomplish that by running less but harder. Also there is medical research evidence that intensity per say is not the main factor in terms of running injuries (see references below) but more volume and experience, hence this type of program has potential and in fact it has worked. 

However there are a few big caveats about this: 1) specificity for your main event and 2) current fitness level. First, if your are training to race an IM for instance and you only run 3x a week (avg 20 mpw) even thought your power will most likely improve and you could run a bit faster farther, you will be lacking the specific training adaptations such as muscle resistance fatigue to allow you to translate that power over the duration of the event. Secondly, fitness level will be a deceive factor as to how well you can adapt to this training approach. Usually we get cardiovascular/metabolically fitter than that of what our muscles/soft tissue can adapt to. Hence it is normal to feel we can run longer/faster but when we actually do we risk injuries  because our muscles hasn’t adapt to the stress induced by the distance/speed. 

If I was to recommend this approach to one of my athletes I would take into account his/her fitness, goals (main) event, limiters, etc and if anything I probably would use it wit be very experienced runner, I would start up conservative and gradually increasing the intensity, I would encourage the athlete to take care of the details (warm up + cool down, stretching, running at the right pace, refueling, daily feedback after every session, etc) and just do this for a training cycle as a focus phase to improve speed specifically and through that pahse swmi/bike intensity would remain on the easy/steady/moderate side. With a beginner or a less trained athlete I would avoid it...

References:

Walter SD, Hart LE, McIntosh JM, Sutton JR. The Ontario cohort study of running-related injuries. Arch Intern Med. 149:2561–2564. 1989.

Burns et al. Factors associated with triathlon-related overuse injuries. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 33(4):177-84. 2003.

Macera CA, Pate RR, Powell KE, et al. Predicting lower-extremity injuries among habitual runners. Arch Intern Med. 149:2565–2568. 1989.

Jacobs SJ, Berson BL. Injuries to runners. a study of entrants to a 10,000 meter race. Am J Sports Med. 14:151–155. 1986.

James SL, Bates BT, Osternig LR. Injuries to runners. Am J Sports Med. 6:40–50. 1978.

Wen DY. Risk factors for overuse injuries in runners. Curr Sports Med Rep. 6(5):307-13. 2007.

Lysholm J, Wiklander J. Injuries in runners. Am J Sports Med. 15:168–171. 1987.

Marti B, Vader JP, Minder CE, Abelin T. On the epidemiology of running injuries: the 1984 Bern Grand-Prix study. Am J Sports Med. 16:285–294. 1988.

 

2009-02-12 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
What about speedwork in a 20 mpw running program in order to prepare for a race?  Still no?
2009-02-12 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???
tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 12:59 PM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 11:43 AM
tkd.teacher - 2009-02-12 12:36 PM
Scout7 - 2009-02-12 11:34 AM

bscharff - 2009-02-12 1:27 PM well then... the other school of thought being that speedwork should be no more than 10% of your weekly mileage... however if you run only 3 days a week... and say its 20 miles... this seems to be not enough...??? maybe i'm just way off here though....

My opinion is that if you're running 20 miles a week, you shouldn't be doing speedwork; your focus should be on increasing your miles per week.

At the risk of disagreeing, if he's focused on sprints only, then 20 miles is decent. I'd recommend 4-5 days of running rather than cramming it in 3 days, but it's still not a bad amount for a sprint only.

John

actually... planning on working up to a half ironman this summer... and ve always seemed to do better by keeping my mileage low... maybe that was because i tended to push the pace on most runs... i'm just coming off of knee surgery (torn meniscus) about 2 1/2 months ago... so working my way back into it... i just took up running a few years ago... and my 5ks last summer were in the low 19s... not there now... i could run more... its just a matter of having time to get my bikes and swims in as well....

Well that definitely changes things. Keeping in mind the knee recovery, definitely you need to be upping the mileage. 20 mpw is way low for a HIM.

John




knocking on wood as i type this.. but the knee has been feeling great.... now after all this talk about running... i'm off to the pool for a little lunch time swim...

thanks again for everyone's comments....

2009-02-12 1:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Run hard everytime...?!? thoughts...???

BeginnerMan - 2009-02-12 12:01 PM to tag onto this... for newer triathletes, how should they evaluate "running hard" vs. "regular running" and how it relates to training when your plan is based on minutes. im just curious for some feedback as originally when i was just getting started i had a knee injury because while i felt i could handle the speed and distance-my body told me otherwise. So what is a good way for someone to evaluate and relate that to minutes based trainin?

RPE.

Use the talk test. If you can carry on a conversation in a fairly normal way while running, you're "running easy". If you are panting while you talk, you're running moderate to hard. If you can't talk at all, the finish line better be in sight. :D

One thing about having been in and out of triathlons since 83, is I've noticed that triathletes LOVE their toys. Garmin, powertaps, HR monitors, etc etc. So many people rely on these toys and don't know how to listen to what their body is telling them.

One of my heroes, Prefontaine, could go out and run 400's at any speed you asked him to. No gimmicks, just a lot of miles and time spent running and learning to listen to what his body was telling him.

John 

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