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2009-04-01 7:59 AM

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Subject: Running to music....

OK stupid question de jour. When running to music with a beat, ie: podrunner, that has a certain BPM. Should I be trying for every right foot strike on beet or every foot strike on beat??

Thanks

Steve



2009-04-01 8:02 AM
in reply to: #2053684

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Subject: RE: Running to music....
As a music teacher, it depends on the beat!  Do what feels comfortable... if one feels too fast or too slow, try the other.  I am actually able to "tune out" the beat and just run my pace.  I DO like it when the beat does match my pace though.
2009-04-01 8:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
Being an ex infantry guy, I run to Army cadences left foot, right foot.  Works for me.
2009-04-01 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
Podrunner typically has a high bpm that dictates every foot strike per beat.  Some of the mixes go up to 180 bpm and that would be difficult to run with every right foot per beat.  That would mean 6 steps per second.  I can't move my feet that fast for very long and definately not with good running form.
2009-04-01 8:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....

hildekq - 2009-04-01 9:02 AM I am actually able to "tune out" the beat and just run my pace.

 

I do this too. It helps to practice tuning out what's around me and staying at my own pace, which is exactly what I'm looking to do in a race.

2009-04-01 9:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....

If I remember correctly (people feel free to correct me on this) I think the most efficient cadence for running is somewhere around 90 (90 right foot steps every minute).  Of course this does varry from person to person, but it is a good place to start.

 The problem with podrunning is that their mixes go from about 130bpm to high 170s which is right outside of where you want your turnover to be.

 Although, I've never run with music, so I'm not really sure how much the music you listen to dictates your cadence.



2009-04-01 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
V1per41 - 2009-04-01 10:03 AM

If I remember correctly (people feel free to correct me on this) I think the most efficient cadence for running is somewhere around 90 (90 right foot steps every minute).  

85ish for slower runners (>8:30/mile, generally), 90ish for faster runners.

But the numbers are guidelines...your ideal cadence is whatever turnover rate gets your foot striking directly below your center of gravity (generally directly under your hips).

That's why timing your footstrikes to music is to me troublesome.

2009-04-01 9:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
Visionbuilder - 2009-04-01 7:59 AM

OK stupid question de jour. When running to music with a beat, ie: podrunner, that has a certain BPM. Should I be trying for every right foot strike on beet or every foot strike on beat??

Thanks

Steve

no
2009-04-01 9:43 AM
in reply to: #2053900

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Subject: RE: Running to music....

I'd heard a higher cadence was better for endurance running, so I started listening to speed metal- i'm no faster and my nerves are now shot.

JorgeM - 2009-04-01 7:16 AM
Visionbuilder - 2009-04-01 7:59 AM

OK stupid question de jour. When running to music with a beat, ie: podrunner, that has a certain BPM. Should I be trying for every right foot strike on beet or every foot strike on beat??

Thanks

Steve

no


Edited by jbjboc 2009-04-01 9:43 AM
2009-04-01 9:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
V1per41 - 2009-04-01 7:03 AM

If I remember correctly (people feel free to correct me on this) I think the most efficient cadence for running is somewhere around 90 (90 right foot steps every minute). Of course this does varry from person to person, but it is a good place to start.

The problem with podrunning is that their mixes go from about 130bpm to high 170s which is right outside of where you want your turnover to be.

Although, I've never run with music, so I'm not really sure how much the music you listen to dictates your cadence.

They've done studies on elite runners, and they all have high cadences. They then extended that to say that everyone should have a high cadence. A lot of people try to achieve this and end up chopping their stride short, which actually makes them slower.

If you are running less than 6:00 miles, then yes, your cadence should be pretty high. If you're running 9:00 miles, not so much.

Most people pick the stride length and cadence that is correct for their body and speed naturally. You increase your cadence by getting fitter, running faster, and incorporating drills. You don't increase cadence by arbitrarily running to a glorified metronome.

John 

2009-04-01 9:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
No idea about podrunner, but when I do run with music I run to the beat quite often. It's really fun on the treadmill where the speed is constant but the songs (and the beat) change


2009-04-01 10:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
tkd.teacher - 2009-04-01 10:50 AM
V1per41 - 2009-04-01 7:03 AM

If I remember correctly (people feel free to correct me on this) I think the most efficient cadence for running is somewhere around 90 (90 right foot steps every minute). Of course this does varry from person to person, but it is a good place to start.

The problem with podrunning is that their mixes go from about 130bpm to high 170s which is right outside of where you want your turnover to be.

Although, I've never run with music, so I'm not really sure how much the music you listen to dictates your cadence.

They've done studies on elite runners, and they all have high cadences. They then extended that to say that everyone should have a high cadence. A lot of people try to achieve this and end up chopping their stride short, which actually makes them slower.

If you are running less than 6:00 miles, then yes, your cadence should be pretty high. If you're running 9:00 miles, not so much.

Most people pick the stride length and cadence that is correct for their body and speed naturally. You increase your cadence by getting fitter, running faster, and incorporating drills. You don't increase cadence by arbitrarily running to a glorified metronome.

John 

I'll submit that anyone running <85 cycles per minute is heel striking and *that* is what slows you. And also increases incidence of overuse injuries.

Ideally you don't increase your cadence much by getting fitter and faster, you keep your stride rate pretty constant while increasing your stride length.

2009-04-01 10:27 AM
in reply to: #2054032

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Subject: RE: Running to music....
run4yrlif - 2009-04-01 11:10 AM
tkd.teacher - 2009-04-01 10:50 AM
V1per41 - 2009-04-01 7:03 AM

If I remember correctly (people feel free to correct me on this) I think the most efficient cadence for running is somewhere around 90 (90 right foot steps every minute). Of course this does varry from person to person, but it is a good place to start.

The problem with podrunning is that their mixes go from about 130bpm to high 170s which is right outside of where you want your turnover to be.

Although, I've never run with music, so I'm not really sure how much the music you listen to dictates your cadence.

They've done studies on elite runners, and they all have high cadences. They then extended that to say that everyone should have a high cadence. A lot of people try to achieve this and end up chopping their stride short, which actually makes them slower.

If you are running less than 6:00 miles, then yes, your cadence should be pretty high. If you're running 9:00 miles, not so much.

Most people pick the stride length and cadence that is correct for their body and speed naturally. You increase your cadence by getting fitter, running faster, and incorporating drills. You don't increase cadence by arbitrarily running to a glorified metronome.

John 

I'll submit that anyone running <85 cycles per minute is heel striking and *that* is what slows you. And also increases incidence of overuse injuries.

Ideally you don't increase your cadence much by getting fitter and faster, you keep your stride rate pretty constant while increasing your stride length.

Actually, heel striking is not bad.  Overstriding is bad.  There is a difference.

2009-04-01 10:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
Scout7 - 2009-04-01 11:27 AM
run4yrlif - 2009-04-01 11:10 AM
tkd.teacher - 2009-04-01 10:50 AM
V1per41 - 2009-04-01 7:03 AM

If I remember correctly (people feel free to correct me on this) I think the most efficient cadence for running is somewhere around 90 (90 right foot steps every minute). Of course this does varry from person to person, but it is a good place to start.

The problem with podrunning is that their mixes go from about 130bpm to high 170s which is right outside of where you want your turnover to be.

Although, I've never run with music, so I'm not really sure how much the music you listen to dictates your cadence.

They've done studies on elite runners, and they all have high cadences. They then extended that to say that everyone should have a high cadence. A lot of people try to achieve this and end up chopping their stride short, which actually makes them slower.

If you are running less than 6:00 miles, then yes, your cadence should be pretty high. If you're running 9:00 miles, not so much.

Most people pick the stride length and cadence that is correct for their body and speed naturally. You increase your cadence by getting fitter, running faster, and incorporating drills. You don't increase cadence by arbitrarily running to a glorified metronome.

John 

I'll submit that anyone running <85 cycles per minute is heel striking and *that* is what slows you. And also increases incidence of overuse injuries.

Ideally you don't increase your cadence much by getting fitter and faster, you keep your stride rate pretty constant while increasing your stride length.

Actually, heel striking is not bad.  Overstriding is bad.  There is a difference.

If the heel striking is a result of dorsiflexing your foot, and your foot is still landing under your center of gravity, then yeah, it's OK. If you're heel striking as a result of overstriding, then it's bad.

I'll restate: dollars to donuts, anyone with a cadence of <85 is overstriding.

2009-04-01 10:54 AM
in reply to: #2053826

Subject: RE: Running to music....

tmueller - 2009-04-01 9:47 AM Podrunner typically has a high bpm that dictates every foot strike per beat.  Some of the mixes go up to 180 bpm and that would be difficult to run with every right foot per beat.  That would mean 6 steps per second.  I can't move my feet that fast for very long and definately not with good running form.

Untrue - my natural cadence seems to fall around 180-185 (that's every footstrike). So as others have said, 90 is the "optimal", or half of that (every right footstrike, or every cycle). Higher cadence is more common for women, though, I believe, esp. smaller women.

And as stated, cadence has very little to do with speed. You can increase your cadence and still run slowly, if you don't apply much force.

This is just my own bias based on what we're taught on my tri-team; that 180 bpm (or 90, depending on how you look at it) is "ideal" - though most people fall a bit on either side of the spectrum, though there is such a thing as too slow- that's when you fall into overstriding, like Scout mentioned.

FWIW, I'm naturally a heel-striker...because of the leg-length thing, I used to overstride VERY slightly on the right. The lift has corrected this, though, thankfully.

2009-04-01 10:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
Hmmm, guess I'm overstriding all the time then ...... damn, here I thought that running 1300+ miles a year and going fast was doing something right .......


2009-04-01 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
wurkit_gurl - 2009-04-01 11:54 AM

And as stated, cadence has very little to do with speed. You can increase your cadence and still run slowly, if you don't apply much force.

No, increasing your cadence increases your speed assuming the same stride length.

There are only two things that determine how fast you go ...... how long your stride is and how fast you are turning that stride over.  To get fast you either 1) Increase your cadence while maintaining the same stride length, 2) Increase your stride length while maintaining the same cadence or 3) Increase both stride length and cadence.

That's it ..........

2009-04-01 11:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....

Daremo - 2009-04-01 11:55 AM Hmmm, guess I'm overstriding all the time then ...... damn, here I thought that running 1300+ miles a year and going fast was doing something right .......

Lots of people run fast even though they aren't biomechanically perfect....they could just run faster with better technique.

2009-04-01 11:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
i like to run and listen to rap. . . . i try not to over complicate these things
2009-04-01 11:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
run4yrlif - 2009-04-01 11:36 AM

I'll restate: dollars to donuts, anyone with a cadence of <85 is overstriding.

Right, you just keep telling yourself that Jim.  I land directly underneath my body on my heel and my cadence is around 85 or slightly less.

And +90% of the elite distance runners heel strike.

Blanket statements are usually not your bag, I'm a little surprised by this ......... Tongue out

2009-04-01 11:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
run4yrlif - 2009-04-01 11:01 AM

Daremo - 2009-04-01 11:55 AM Hmmm, guess I'm overstriding all the time then ...... damn, here I thought that running 1300+ miles a year and going fast was doing something right .......

Lots of people run fast even though they aren't biomechanically perfect....they could just run faster with better technique.

Thats simply because there is no perfect 'form'. Running economy is not a function of one or another thing but a mix of all and what's optimal for someone might not be optimal for someone else. Hence stating that someone running with a cadence of 85 or less is overstriding is a bit of a stretch...



2009-04-01 11:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
Daremo - 2009-04-01 9:04 AM
run4yrlif - 2009-04-01 11:36 AM

I'll restate: dollars to donuts, anyone with a cadence of <85 is overstriding.

Right, you just keep telling yourself that Jim. I land directly underneath my body on my heel and my cadence is around 85 or slightly less.

And +90% of the elite distance runners heel strike.

Blanket statements are usually not your bag, I'm a little surprised by this ......... Tongue out

I think where people get confused is that the heel hitting the ground first is not necessarily "heel striking". The "striking" part of a stride is where the majority of your weight is coming down on the foot. I would suspect that you and I (And a whole host of others) have our heels TOUCH first, but our weight doesn't come completely down on the foot until around mid-fore foot, by which time it is under our center of gravity.

Heel touching first is not necessarily heel striking.

John 

2009-04-01 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....

Yes, but that is what people associate the term with.

Because we all know Crowie can't run for sh-t ....... and look what hits first.





(Crowie Heel Strike.jpg)



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2009-04-01 11:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
run4yrlif - 2009-04-01 9:10 AM
Ideally you don't increase your cadence much by getting fitter and faster, you keep your stride rate pretty constant while increasing your stride length.


I just ran with music yesterday for the first time in a year mainly because my mp3 had broken and I was too lazy to get another. For me, I'd have to say "no way" on adjusting cadence to the music. For me, music is just something to add to the "enjoyment" of running.

Your statement above brought back an old memory for me.

I have almost zero endurance running genetics but when I was younger I was able to train to eventually be a pretty good runner (which I'm trying to do again now). I remember that the sidewalk I ran on had those lines across it between segments of concrete that matched my natural stride length perfectly. With my natural stride I'd foot strike the line on every stride (or ever other stride, can't really remember exactly).

So on every run I'd try to extend my stride past those lines a little at the same cadence which would put my strike a little further ahead with each stride. Once I'd strike the line again I figured I'd just covered free distance so I'd count (on my fingers) how many times I got that free distance over the same course and record it along with my time. Just like golf score swimming.

I know little to nothing about run training but just remembered that little game I played to occupy my mind and give me another metric to keep track of. Thanks for the memory!
2009-04-01 11:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Running to music....
Daremo - 2009-04-01 12:12 PM

Yes, but that is what people associate the term with.

Because we all know Crowie can't run for sh-t ....... and look what hits first.

I'd love to see that from the side, cause it sure looks like he's overstriding...

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