Cross Fit Article in Triathlete

I'd be interested in hearing some real results from average joe's as well. I've read a bit about crossfit, and I have a buddy who owns a crossfit gym.  One thing I don't agree with about the whole philosophy is the training so hard you're miserable.  Pukie the clown is a good example.   I'm interested in exercising while having fun.  Sure I push it sometimes, but within reason. It also may just be false sense of bravado they put out, and since I haven't been to any classes that is possible.

I joined a Cross Fit gym 11/09 and went 3-4x a week through April. It didn't help my tri abilities at all. Others at the gym would run less than before they joined CF and report their 5K times went down me the opposite happened.  Plus I would get sore and at times slight injury issues that interfered with my training. Since I would have a training plan working with a coach for tris and CF they would post the work the night before hard to coordinate things well.  Example being really sore in your upper body from lifting didn't help with the swim the next day. The coaches wanted me to do the Cross Fit Endurance program and tried to push me to do it over and over but I didn't see it wise to do hard intense training and mostly short workouts all the time.

I spoke to a owner of another Cross Fit gym who used to race tris including IM. He suggested Cross Fit Endurance is good program for those racing Sprints and Olys but for those doing HIM and IMs it was a bit of a conflict as you need to build up resiliency to be able to s/b/r for so long.

My husband and daughter joined and still go to Cross Fit. They love it. They both do tris but for them Cross Fit is more their primary athletic pursuit. Cross Fit is a lot of fun but for me it really doesn't fit in well with  my goals to do long course tris.

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I have been doing a modified crossfit endurance program for the last year and I have nothing but great things to say about it.  In addition to a paleo diet, I lost 50 lbs in a year and ran two four hour marathons.  The program was put together by a couple navy friends back in Virginia Beach who are certified trainers and own their own gym called crossfit takeover.  I usually do two 20-30 minute workouts per week during my circuit training days in between tri training.  I wouldn't exactly call a training program that has gone from 17 affiliates to 1,700 in five years "snake oil" but I've come to expect that from this forum when people are misinformed or simply can't accept the fact that there are different ways of training that can still be highly beneficial for all levels of athletic ability. 

Here's a crazy thought........30 years ago a bunch of sailors wanted to start a race to prove who the better athlete was between a swimmer, a cyclist or a runner.  Everyone thought they were nuts!  The 15 or so contestants ate cheeseburgers during transistions, and used old 10 speeds during the bike portion.  Today that race is known as the Ironman and the winner is considered the greatest athlete on the planet!

Edited by thecatch83 2011-01-15 4:46 AM

what was your run volume during your mary training?  your post suggests you were combining tri training with cross fit circuits which would suggest you were ding at least some volume of work. 

crossfit organizes circuit training principles in a nice way and gives CT a "philosophy" and i would consider it a good program for CTing.  BUT, what I am trying to find out is whether crossfit can really be the cornerstone of an endurance program.  For example, if I can do mile repeats instead of a 20 miler to prep for a mary, that would be nice as they take much less time.

For the record, i am not disparaging crossfit, i am hopeful that it is a legitimate alternative to high volume training because it is hard for me to get in more than 8-10 hours of training a week (and to do that i am fitting in training in every nook and crany of available time).  i am just skeptical that doing CT and interval training for 5 or so hours a week can prep you for an IM that will last 10+ or that doing mile repeats can prep you for a mary.  thanks.

Wait,wait,wait,,,,,ok, now I have popcorn, continue!

My biggest weeks were around 50 miles of running (18 miler longest) for marathon training and I used a 6 month program doing crossfit 3-4 days and running 3-4 days a week (sometimes training and running same days).  Now that I have added more volume training for triathlons, I have tapered down to just 2 crossfit sessions per week that are modified to focus on core strength training i.e. squats, lunges, deadlifts etc.  The fact that crossfit is even being mentioned in triathlon magazines should tell you something........

It tells me that when you are writing a monthly magazine, you write about whatever you think will sell magazines.

Shane

I hope it didn't get lost on anyone that Rutter didn't actually PR on the run at Lake Placid using the Cross Fit Endurance like the article mentioned.  She had a fantastic race, no question, but the fact remains she missed a run PR by almost 11 minutes.

What you're missing is solid scientific data on the efficacy of CrossFit for endurance athletes, especially those new to the sport. I'm not saying it doesn't work, just not a lot of data. Their methodology flies in the face of established endurance training paradigms and that bothers some people. It scares some other people. What if it does work? Where would that leave those earning a living from teaching and coaching and writing books based on commonly accepted training principles?

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Edited by Fred Doucette 2011-01-15 9:39 AM

I find crossfit's stuff about triathlon and endurance confusing. I'm actually starting to get into crossfit, but that's based on a PT and an ortho telling me i've got some bad imbalances that are causing a chronic knee injury. So I need to get stronger and need to step back from specialized training and do more general fitness. Crossfit seems great for that. But I want to spend time getting strong so I can train for races and train for longer races.

I'm sure I could do a sprint or oly once in a while just based on CF, but I'm not sure I believe it's sustainable over five years. Although, to be fair, I've never seen a tri-specific CFE plan. They tell you to do two sports (one interval/one longer steady state) workouts a week, plus three CFE workouts. But at that point it  doesn't even seem like CF, it's just a balanced six-workout a week plan with three strength training sessions. That hardly seems new.

If CF is about building generalists, I don't understand why they're so intent on claiming they can train in such a specific sport. And it's not like you see similar claims on CF about cycling or BQing or anything. They seem to have a real thing about triathlon specifically.

Crossfit is like anything else in training (and in life, really) - it has its good and bad. Take what is good, throw the rest away, don't worry what others think.

The best way to use Crossfit workouts, IMO, is to find a few workouts that you like and rotate them into your training for variety. Substitute them for an interval workout if you do intervals. Use them in place of weight training workouts if you do weight training. I find that most of the recommended weight workouts that come with the pre-packaged training plans are not good at all - better than nothing, but not good. However, if you don't have decent technique in the lifts, especially the Olympic lifts, you won't get a lot of benefit. And unfortunately, many CF boxes do a terrible job at teaching the Olympic lifts. But if you can get good instruction, or are already proficient, an exercise such as the clean and jerk can take the place of SEVERAL regular exercises. Legs, the all important core, and upper body, are all taken care of with this one lift. Result: you will dramatically reduce your time in the gym assuming that you like to add weight training to your program (and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't because that opens a whole 'nother can o'worms).

And it's working..........(See thread title), and what's more you're in here commenting on it....how ironical



Excellent post, and that's exactly how I use CF endurance in my training.  I think there sould be a new rule added to the Guidelines for a Healthy Discussion, if you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, you shouldn't be allowed to reply to threads.  I can't wait to see the expression on my friends face (who are also IM training and crossfitting) that they are wasting their time, and CF is nothing more than gypsy snake oil used to sell magazines!

Edited by thecatch83 2011-01-15 7:28 PM

Of course it works; you target a magazine to novices to the sport and provide information about training, gear and some human interest stories and your magazine will sell.  Especially when the information you are providing is about something that will allow you to perform faster with less time invested in training.



I may have missed the irony to which you are referring; care to elaborate?



I think this would be a fantastic rule, however I don't envision it being implemented quite the way you are thinking though.

Shane

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Well the article used a guy who was severely injured and couldnt run or bike at all. He used crossfit as an alternative and saw improved times. Yes he had a strong endurance background. i dont think the article in any way stated that you should stop running biking and swimming, just perhaps supplement now and then with a crossfit workout.

i did a crossfit work out with a trainer. The whole workout was about 30 min. I was very winded during the workout. I was pretty much at my vo2 max the majority of the time.  So done right I do think crossfit can enhance your training. Especially in the winter months when it is hard to get out and run or bike in snow and ice.

Just my .02

I put Crossfit and p90x into similar categories.  They stir up the same reactions in people anyway.  I started triathlons from getting in shape from 2 rounds of p90x.  I lost 25 lbs and felt great.  When I got into the pool to start swimming I couldn't swim more than 25 yds at a time.  I was tired after 10 miles biking and running a 10 min mile was painful.  

I now swim 3000 + yds at a time, and biking and running are coming along as well.  I guess what I'm saying is that I think that systems like crossfit and p90x are great all around STRENGTHENING systems and can help us obtain a certain level of STRENGTH to accomplish  things.  But if you want to improve your swimming, biking & running; you need to SBR.   

When I finished my first tri last October, I gave equal props to my p90x training and my SBR training.  But the longer I train in SBR the more I realize that I got into to Triathlons because I actually like swimming, biking and running.  

I am trying to get into another round of  p90x in the off season, but I am having too much fun working on technique in the pool, spinning until I am a pool of sweat, and getting out there and running like I did in high school.  Blah, Blah, blah.....just my 2 cents.  

I read the article and thought it had some interesting bits and some fairly worthless and misleading parts. To me it is a similar discussion to the "100 mile IM prep ride slow vs 2X50 miles on consecutive days at high intensity" discussion as you prepare for an IM distance race. We have little data to support which is best and there is always a person in which that approach has worked (and one for which it has not worked).

Anyway, the crossfit article was interesting but I chuckled at the sample training plan and found it a little misleading, kinda like the guy who said they never studied for an exam but somehow aced it. On one day the plan was a 400yd timetrial (swim day). Really? I don't think a 400 yd hard swim will adequately prepare you for a 2.4 mile ocean swim. Just sayin'. Also, when touted as a way to save time, the 5X1 mile hard intervals with 8 mins rest doesn't really equate to that short of a workout (say you do each mile in 6-8 mins, that is 5X6-8 mins running + 5X8 mins resting = 70-80 mins. To me that is not a short training day. 

I think another point that is missed is that the shorter workouts are designed to be hellishly hard, so not just happily training for less time. You have to put in the effort. There is not such thing as a free lunch. I think of it like a bike trainer workout where your legs are toast after 45 mins. Sure, its just 45 mins but you are praying for them to end for a lot of the time. Anyway, like some others, I could care less about crossfit and some of the article bothers me, but like everything it has a place for some people. 

Don't forget the Kool Aid!

My only problem with Crossfit is that they seem to be telling all their disciples to go out and brag about how awesome they are  and that a crossfitter is better at any sport they attempt.  Just my experience.  You want to work out that way...go for it.   Just keep it to yourself.  Nobody cares how awesome you think you are.

I am still waiting for CFE to revolutionized the way we train and teach us endurance coaches/athletes how to properly train. I think any minute now elite athletes and coaches will start using CFE to win Kona, 70.3 Champ and ITU WC! IIRC there was a coach (or athlete?) who posted here promising big results using CFE but every year he/she ended up battling some sort of injury or setback?

Sarcasm aside, it is a shame a solid program like CF which can potentially complement endurance training has to resort to 'snake oil' claims in order to sell their program. I wonder if CFE ever heard of the many elite coaches using HIIT and specific resistance training (i.e. plyos, drills, hills, etc.) as part of the athletes training load, something that has exited for a long time, certainly long before CFE was even invented?

OP - what are you missing? simply CFE might or might not help your achieve your goals as athletes' physiology and needs vary based on different variables (i.e. athletic background). Still, if you want to perform at your very best, it is a fact that specific training will allow you to do that. This doesn't mean you can't have a mixed load ranging from steady state efforts, MLSS, VO2 Max or even HIIT; after all, any good program will include this elements with basic periodization (general to specific training).

OTOH, if you want to perform the best you can with the least amount of endurance specific training, then something like CFE might certainly help you.

I know right........it's almost as bad as those people who put Ironman or 140.6 stickers all over their cars, or IM logos tatooed on their calves!  How did that go again, nobody cares how awesome you think you are (see hypocrisy definition).........just sayin



I thought it was snake oil?