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2012-08-04 11:08 AM

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Subject: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?

NY Times has an article today about the Harry Reid-Romney controversy. While I think that Reid is probably trying to stir up trouble, I was struck by Romney's comment:

“Harry Reid really has to put up or shut up,” Mr. Romney said as he campaigned in Mr. Reid’s home state, north of Las Vegas. “I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes, a lot of taxes. So Harry is simply wrong, and that’s why I’m so anxious for him to give us the names of the people who have put this forward.

Ummm - isn't refusing to give up information the reason Romney is vulnerable on this front? Isn't asking him to release "the names of people" the same as being asked to release more tax forms?

Heck, even if he didn't pay taxes for a decade, a smart person could still use that to help his campaign - "I know the tax code is unfair. That's why I want to be president, so I can make the taxes fair for everybody". He could make the case that the middle class pays not only for services it gets, not only supports the services used by the economic underclass, but also ends up paying for tax advantages to the wealthy. He could spin that into discussion of how he wants to cut the budget overall, thus taking the democratic message of economic inequality (which there is increasing evidence is worse here than in other western nations now) and turn the message from raise taxes on the rich to lower taxes on the middle class.




2012-08-04 11:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
 I think he's engaged himself in a game of "neener-neener." Which is as about the only way he can deal with the allegations short of ignoring them completely. As far as your suggestion on how he handle the situation goes, he'd get shredded by the Democrats from now til the election. A logical and sensible explanation would get turned against him and get zero air time. All we would hear was how Richie Rich and his gazillionaire club friends are getting a free ride while the middle class pays the tab.
2012-08-04 12:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
I'm a heck of a lot more concerned about how Harry Reid and his boss propose spending everyone's tax money than the specifics of Romney's tax forms, which we all know is just going to be used for political gamesmanship.

The focus of this election should be on who has the best ideas for recharging this economy and putting the US on a long term path toward fiscal solvency. Period. Everything else is a sideshow.



2012-08-04 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?

scoobysdad - 2012-08-04 11:22 AM The focus of this every election should be on who has the best ideas for recharging this economy country and putting the US on a long term path toward fiscal solvency prosperity for all and global respect. Period. Everything else is a sideshow.

Made a few changes to that.....

2012-08-04 2:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
jeffnboise - 2012-08-04 1:39 PM

scoobysdad - 2012-08-04 11:22 AM The focus of this every election should be on who has the best ideas for recharging this economy country and putting the US on a long term path toward fiscal solvency prosperity for all and global respect. Period. Everything else is a sideshow.

Made a few changes to that.....

Much better.Wink

2012-08-04 5:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?

scoobysdad - 2012-08-04 11:22 AM I'm a heck of a lot more concerned about how Harry Reid and his boss propose spending everyone's tax money than the specifics of Romney's tax forms, which we all know is just going to be used for political gamesmanship. The focus of this election should be on who has the best ideas for recharging this economy and putting the US on a long term path toward fiscal solvency. Period. Everything else is a sideshow.

Neither of the 2 candidates is the best choice for that. One is offering to kick you in the groin and the other is offering to punch you in the mouth. What a choice.



2012-08-04 9:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
We have Global Respect.  Those that don't think so see it differently because of their own self image.  Semper Fi Sir!
2012-08-05 11:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?

I know this isn't really dealing with your position, which I agree with and have wondered about myself.

I find it somewhat interesting that a guy who made his money AFTER he went into politics is raising these types of questions about a guy who made his money before he got into politics.

Kind of like when Reid was so outraged that the US Olympic uniforms were made in
China while it was Reid who was passing legislation making it cost prohibitive for the textile industry to continue in the USA.

Also like Reid crying about the rich not paying enough taxes when he's been in the Senate and responsible for the majority of the tax legislation and all 70,000 pages of loopholes, inequities and major confusion.

If Romney hasn't paid a dime in income taxes and avoided them by legal means, I think it's Senator Reid that has more to answer for than a smart business man taking advantages of the rules Reid put in place.

2012-08-06 7:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
crusevegas - 2012-08-05 11:28 PM

I know this isn't really dealing with your position, which I agree with and have wondered about myself.

I find it somewhat interesting that a guy who made his money AFTER he went into politics is raising these types of questions about a guy who made his money before he got into politics.

Kind of like when Reid was so outraged that the US Olympic uniforms were made in
China while it was Reid who was passing legislation making it cost prohibitive for the textile industry to continue in the USA.

Also like Reid crying about the rich not paying enough taxes when he's been in the Senate and responsible for the majority of the tax legislation and all 70,000 pages of loopholes, inequities and major confusion.

If Romney hasn't paid a dime in income taxes and avoided them by legal means, I think it's Senator Reid that has more to answer for than a smart business man taking advantages of the rules Reid put in place.

 That's a whole lotta irony right there.......

2012-08-06 8:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
gearboy - 2012-08-04 12:08 PM

NY Times has an article today about the Harry Reid-Romney controversy. While I think that Reid is probably trying to stir up trouble, I was struck by Romney's comment:

“Harry Reid really has to put up or shut up,” Mr. Romney said as he campaigned in Mr. Reid’s home state, north of Las Vegas. “I have paid taxes every year, and a lot of taxes, a lot of taxes. So Harry is simply wrong, and that’s why I’m so anxious for him to give us the names of the people who have put this forward.

Ummm - isn't refusing to give up information the reason Romney is vulnerable on this front? Isn't asking him to release "the names of people" the same as being asked to release more tax forms?

Heck, even if he didn't pay taxes for a decade, a smart person could still use that to help his campaign - "I know the tax code is unfair. That's why I want to be president, so I can make the taxes fair for everybody". He could make the case that the middle class pays not only for services it gets, not only supports the services used by the economic underclass, but also ends up paying for tax advantages to the wealthy. He could spin that into discussion of how he wants to cut the budget overall, thus taking the democratic message of economic inequality (which there is increasing evidence is worse here than in other western nations now) and turn the message from raise taxes on the rich to lower taxes on the middle class.


someone looking for a nomination from the RNC can't run with that spin....although i completely agree with you...and he may too but just knows better to keep his party happy



Edited by mehaner 2012-08-06 8:07 AM
2012-08-06 10:30 AM
in reply to: #4346887

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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.



2012-08-06 1:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
TriRSquared - 2012-08-06 11:30 AM

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.

Precisely.  

I have heard from several people within the Gearboy camp that Gearboy has not actually completed a triathlon.  I ask, is this someone we want representing us all on BT?

2012-08-06 2:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
Sous - 2012-08-06 2:16 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-08-06 11:30 AM

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.

Precisely.  

I have heard from several people within the Gearboy camp that Gearboy has not actually completed a triathlon.  I ask, is this someone we want representing us all on BT?

I refuse to release records of my participation in triathlons on privacy grounds, and insist that you tell us who your sources are...

2012-08-06 2:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
TriRSquared - 2012-08-06 10:30 AM

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.



Are you saying Romney needs to `put up or shut up?'

Or does that only apply to not-your-candidate?
2012-08-06 2:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
gearboy - 2012-08-06 3:31 PM
Sous - 2012-08-06 2:16 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-08-06 11:30 AM

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.

Precisely.  

I have heard from several people within the Gearboy camp that Gearboy has not actually completed a triathlon.  I ask, is this someone we want representing us all on BT?

I refuse to release records of my participation in triathlons on privacy grounds, and insist that you tell us who your sources are...

... but the problem is that Romney has released tax returns as well as numerous financial disclosures from the state.

2012-08-06 2:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?

mr2tony - 2012-08-06 3:42 PM
Are you saying Romney needs to `put up or shut up?' Or does that only apply to not-your-candidate?

He has released everything the law requires him to release.  He has "put up". 

[Pelosi, Reid, and Wasserman-Schultz] refused repeated requests from McClatchy to release their own returns, requests that started before the flap over Romney’s records.

Pelosi aides refused, saying she’s disclosed all that Congress requires.

So why are they asking Romney to do more than they are willing to do.  They are all abiding by what the law requires.

And Romney is not "my candidate".



Edited by TriRSquared 2012-08-06 2:57 PM


2012-08-06 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
Legally, the burden is NOT on Harry Reid:

At law, if a person in control of evidence refuses to produce the evidence, then the jury is instructed that there is a presumption that the evidence would be against the party failing to produce. It is called the “Missing Evidence” instruction.
 
Of course- I guess none of this applies in politics. 
 
 
 

 

2012-08-06 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
mr2tony - 2012-08-06 12:42 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-08-06 10:30 AM

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.

Are you saying Romney needs to `put up or shut up?' Or does that only apply to not-your-candidate?

 

Should it apply to the person who is asking for something he is not entitled to have or see?

I think the person making the allegation has the burden of proof.

 

Let's look at another example, I say you cheated in your last tri and I know who has the proof and demand you provide evidence that you didn't cheat. Who should put up or shut up in this example.

Let me ask you another question Tony, lets pretend that Romney was able to get his tax liability to 0 percent and doing so legally based on our current tax code. Should we be upset with him or the people in congress and the senate who put those rules into place?

2012-08-06 3:22 PM
in reply to: #4349700

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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
morey000 - 2012-08-06 1:14 PM
Legally, the burden is NOT on Harry Reid:

At law, if a person in control of evidence refuses to produce the evidence, then the jury is instructed that there is a presumption that the evidence would be against the party failing to produce. It is called the “Missing Evidence” instruction.
 
Of course- I guess none of this applies in politics. 
 
 
 

 

 

Could you provide the evidence to support these allegations?

2012-08-06 4:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
morey000 - 2012-08-06 4:14 PM
Legally, the burden is NOT on Harry Reid:

At law, if a person in control of evidence refuses to produce the evidence, then the jury is instructed that there is a presumption that the evidence would be against the party failing to produce. It is called the “Missing Evidence” instruction.
 
Of course- I guess none of this applies in politics. 
 
 
Maybe you are not a parent*, but the standards used in criminal proceedings are not the ones at play here. The whole business is being played out, on both sides, not to win over some judge or jury, but to sway the "court of public opinion". And Reid has Romney playing catch-up by making an accusation, which Romney won't directly answer (and I don't think it's a catch-22 of the "when did you stop beating your wife" variety), leaving Romney looking foolish when he asks Reid to do the thing (release information not legally required) he himself is unwilling to do.
 
*Whenever I have a kid who plays the "junior lawyer card" of "you can't prove I did it", I point out that the parent does not need to prove it to any degree of certainty. Not criminal standards (beyond a reasonable doubt), not civil (preponderance of evidence). One of the advantages of being a parent is that if I think you did it, then I can administer the punishment. Because (a) if I am suspicious of you, you must often be doing things that make me suspicious, and (b) you probably are getting away with something I just haven't caught yet. 
2012-08-06 4:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
crusevegas - 2012-08-06 3:19 PM

mr2tony - 2012-08-06 12:42 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-08-06 10:30 AM

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.

Are you saying Romney needs to `put up or shut up?' Or does that only apply to not-your-candidate?

 

Should it apply to the person who is asking for something he is not entitled to have or see?

I think the person making the allegation has the burden of proof.

 

Let's look at another example, I say you cheated in your last tri and I know who has the proof and demand you provide evidence that you didn't cheat. Who should put up or shut up in this example.

Let me ask you another question Tony, lets pretend that Romney was able to get his tax liability to 0 percent and doing so legally based on our current tax code. Should we be upset with him or the people in congress and the senate who put those rules into place?



I would show you my results. End of story. If you continue to press on that I cheated then I would again show you my results. Of course that may not pacify some people, who would then ask for the long-form version of my results, which I would show you, but even that wouldn't make everybody happy, now would it?

As to your other question -- if he did nothing illegal then I wouldn't be upset with a guy who is using the law to his advantage. He's not BREAKING the law, so why should he be punished or chastised if he did nothing illegal. Just like people on welfare who are legally receiving benefits. They're not breaking the law so why are so many people upset at the welfare system and calling this `the welfare president?' I mean, they're not breaking any laws so it's OK, right? Right?


2012-08-06 5:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
mr2tony - 2012-08-06 5:54 PM
crusevegas - 2012-08-06 3:19 PM
mr2tony - 2012-08-06 12:42 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-08-06 10:30 AM

Um... guilty until proven innocent?  Right to face accusers?

It is the requirement of the party that claims legal wrongdoing to bring forth the people who claim to have knowledge of the wrongdoing.

Romeny has compiled with the requirements to run for president.  If he chooses to NOT release more tax returns that is his right.  It is your right to hold this against him but he's doing nothing illegal until it's proven by Reid and his bunch.

I'm glad Romney took this stand.  Put up or shut up needs to be said a bit more often in politics.

I'm still waiting for a candidate to let the F-bomb fly during a debate.

Are you saying Romney needs to `put up or shut up?' Or does that only apply to not-your-candidate?

 

Should it apply to the person who is asking for something he is not entitled to have or see?

I think the person making the allegation has the burden of proof.

 

Let's look at another example, I say you cheated in your last tri and I know who has the proof and demand you provide evidence that you didn't cheat. Who should put up or shut up in this example.

Let me ask you another question Tony, lets pretend that Romney was able to get his tax liability to 0 percent and doing so legally based on our current tax code. Should we be upset with him or the people in congress and the senate who put those rules into place?

I would show you my results. End of story. If you continue to press on that I cheated then I would again show you my results. Of course that may not pacify some people, who would then ask for the long-form version of my results, which I would show you, but even that wouldn't make everybody happy, now would it? As to your other question -- if he did nothing illegal then I wouldn't be upset with a guy who is using the law to his advantage. He's not BREAKING the law, so why should he be punished or chastised if he did nothing illegal. Just like people on welfare who are legally receiving benefits. They're not breaking the law so why are so many people upset at the welfare system and calling this `the welfare president?' I mean, they're not breaking any laws so it's OK, right? Right?

And then there would be people who would want to see the previous 10 years.  And then the 10 previous years.  And then his birth certificate.  And his high school transcripts.  His HIV blood test.  His VO2 Max results etc...

You have to draw the line.  And the law has drawn that line.  2 years previous.  He's done that.

Why should he have to provide more than what is required?

The "if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to hide" argument is nothing but bating.

People have been asking for Obama's college transcripts for some time now.  He got into a very prestigious school on self-admitted bad HS grades.  But he has not offered them up and the law says he does not have to. How is this any different?



Edited by TriRSquared 2012-08-06 5:04 PM
2012-08-06 5:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?

I think it's the old "when did you start beating your wife question".  They're just trying to throw out something (anything) to put Romney on defense and if he provides the tax returns they'll attack him on whats in them or if he doesn't provide the returns they'll say he's trying to hide something.  It's slimy politics as usual.

It's no different than the Repubs trying to get Obama to release:

fast and furious docs
college applications
college transcripts
passport used to travel to pakistan
birth certificate

So when Obama doesn't release any of the said doc's he's "obviously" trying to hide something and really was born somewhere else, or falsely applied as a foreign citizen to get accepted and scholarships, etc...  

It's smear politics as usual to tear the other guy down.

So, I don't have a problem with them asking the dumb questions to lead people down the conspiracy theory road.  Honestly I think conspiracy theories are down right entertaining in an otherwise boring race



Edited by tuwood 2012-08-06 5:52 PM
2012-08-06 6:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
crusevegas - 2012-08-05 11:28 PM

I know this isn't really dealing with your position, which I agree with and have wondered about myself.

I find it somewhat interesting that a guy who made his money AFTER he went into politics is raising these types of questions about a guy who made his money before he got into politics.

Kind of like when Reid was so outraged that the US Olympic uniforms were made in
China while it was Reid who was passing legislation making it cost prohibitive for the textile industry to continue in the USA.

Also like Reid crying about the rich not paying enough taxes when he's been in the Senate and responsible for the majority of the tax legislation and all 70,000 pages of loopholes, inequities and major confusion.

If Romney hasn't paid a dime in income taxes and avoided them by legal means, I think it's Senator Reid that has more to answer for than a smart business man taking advantages of the rules Reid put in place.

So well said it it needed to be reposted

2012-08-06 6:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"?
tuwood - 2012-08-06 5:51 PM

I think it's the old "when did you start beating your wife question".  They're just trying to throw out something (anything) to put Romney on defense and if he provides the tax returns they'll attack him on whats in them or if he doesn't provide the returns they'll say he's trying to hide something.  It's slimy politics as usual.

It's no different than the Repubs trying to get Obama to release:

fast and furious docs
college applications
college transcripts
passport used to travel to pakistan
birth certificate

So when Obama doesn't release any of the said doc's he's "obviously" trying to hide something and really was born somewhere else, or falsely applied as a foreign citizen to get accepted and scholarships, etc...  

It's smear politics as usual to tear the other guy down.

So, I don't have a problem with them asking the dumb questions to lead people down the conspiracy theory road.  Honestly I think conspiracy theories are down right entertaining in an otherwise boring race

I agree with most of your post but in fast and furious the U.S. Government supervised the sale of assult weapons to know gang members and drug dealers the result of which is 1 dead agent and perhaps scores of dead Mexican citizens.  The AG of the United States lied about the operation and lied about what he knew about the operation and now the President is forbiding the Congress from seeing any more records.

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