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Zone 2 runners......... have some questions
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 2013-05-18 7:49 AM |
Regular  287   Levittown, PA |  Subject: Zone 2 runners......... have some questionsSorry for the long post, but I really need some insight and want to be as detailed as I can: So I just finished my first sprint tri a short while ago and now trying to up my miles in training for an olympic. While during my sprint training I worked my way up to 5 mile distances when running. So let me begin by saying that I recently read a few thread about zone 2 training and decided this was something I was very interested in. One common thing I hear in every thread is that people most times feel like when they first start zone 2 training that it is super easy. Almost too easy from what i read. Some people have actually had to walk during their runs so that they could bring their heart rate down from a higher zone so that they could stay in zone 2. I figured this sounds good to me. A nice easy pace type of training that will allow me to up my mileage and hopefully stay away from injuries. I ordered my HR monitor and got it about a week ago. After ordering my HR monitor I decided to do a few test runs and see how I felt running slower than my normal pace for a few days. Im not a great runner by all means but have been running for a few years now. Usually an avg comfortable pace for me is around 9:30 to 9:45 ish. When I do this pace type of run I usually feel like my RPE is around a 5 out of 10. So I went out a few days for my test runs before getting my hear rate monitor and I did 3 runs of 4 miles, 4.4 miles and 5 miles and my avg paced of them was 10' 54", 10' 29" and 10' 43". I intentionally ran slow than normal since everything I read about zone 2 running everybody said they were almost bored with how slow they started out. After all 3 runs I felt great. Didn't feel overly tired, my body didn't hurt. I was actually pretty excited about the runs even though they were pretty slow. So I get my HR monitor and do a LT test as posted by Mike Ricci, a trainer here on BT. I do a 15 min warm up and then a 30min TT and record my last 20 mins of that TT and use the avg heart rate of that 20 mins to find my zones. This test I took very serious. I did my warm up and when I started my 30 TT I started at a low 9min pace and increased gradually over the 30 mins and finished in the high 7min pace. I probably have ever hit 7min pace once or twice before. I really pushed my limits on this run and gave everything I had. My avg rate was 180bpm for the TT. So I plug them in to the training logs here on BT and find that my zone 2 is 154 to 163. Great............now im ready to train. I wake up this morning and head out on my run. I planned a 5 mile run and was looking forward to a nice easy pace. I get about a half mile into the run and my heart rate is only about 120ish. I pick up the pace a bit over the next half mile. I check it after mile 1 and its at 135. Ok, let me speed this up again, so I speed up and over the next mile I find that I am running in the 8' 30" pace range before my heart rate finally hits 154 which is the lowest end of my zone 2. What the hell, this is crazy, I am running waaaaay faster than a comfortable pace just to hit the low end of my zone. So I end up running the next mile and a half and anywhere from high 8 mins to about 9' 15" ish to keep my heart rate at 154. My breathing is a bit labored and this is definitely not an EASY run for me. I am by no means trying to look for a magic way of training where I don't have to work hard and get incredible results but this just doesn't feel like what I expected when I read every other persons experience when first starting out. So I get to mile 4 and mile pace is much slower now, about 9' 40ish and my heart rate is now pretty steady at about 158 to 160. I finish my run and I feel exhausted. This was no where near what I expected. It was not enjoyable at all and I was out of my comfort range for most of my run. I would say the entire training session felt like a 7 or 8 out of 10. I checked my stats at the end of my run and I carried a 9' 13" pace for the 5 miles which is probably a good 30 seconds under my "comfortable pace" and when I checked my heart rate avg is was 153 (probably because it took me 2 miles or so just to get up to my zone). My zone 2 range is 154 to 163 so technically I avg'd a high end zone 1 run for 5 miles which exhausted me. I am seriously confused. Can anybody make heads or tails of this? Couple questions. 1. How long should it take for you to reach your zone 2? it took me 2 miles on a 5 mile run because I didn't want to sprint in the beginning to get to it quickly. 2. Should I have to run a lot faster than a comfortable pace just to bring my BPM up to my zone 2 pace? Comfortable for me is 9' 30" or slower and at several points I was right around 8' 30" ish before my heart rate went up high enough to just barely break into my low end zone 2. 3. Is it possible that my zone numbers of 154 to 163 for zone 2 are not right? I plugged them into the calculator on this site but maybe I did something wrong. Any help on any of this would be greatly appreciated. I was very excited to start this zone 2 training and I left today's training pretty bummed. I seriously doubt I could keep up that type of training and be able to ramp up my mileage the way I want to and especially without getting injured. Edited by spiderjunior 2013-05-18 7:51 AM |
| 2013-05-18 8:31 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| Member 93 Tampa | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions It should be a conversation run. Anything that your able to talk and hold a conversation is prob your zone two. You might want to try to us the default zones. The 220 - age one. |
| 2013-05-18 8:35 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Regular 104 Texas | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions My initial thoughts are that yes, those numbers are not correct. Those seem very high to me. If they are not correct, I'm not positive on where the error could have come in though. Typically, you are correct in your initial thinking that zone 2 should be extremely comfortable, easy, and almost boring at times. To put it in perspective, I run around 8 MPM when racing, and my zone 2 is anywhere from 10:25 to 11:30 MPM, depending on the day and conditions. I tend to think that if you feel that you are pushing yourself too much, you are not in zone 2. Zone 2 should be something you can stay in "all day" if needed, and it sounds to me like you don't feel you could hold that pace for a sustained distance. Could it be an issue with your HR monitor? |
 2013-05-18 8:53 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2013-05-18 9:02 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Extreme Veteran 1018 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions What time of day did you do the test? Flat route? Any wind? I took the test 3 times over the course of 3 weeks. Trying to match the same conditions. Then I took the average. Do a couple of more tests to dial in that LTHR. By the way, those my zone numbers as well. I force myself to run Z1 for at least 20 minutes. Then I pick it up. If I go Z2 right out of the gates I have a hard time controlling the HR. If I dip in Z3 too fast, the run ruined because I'm fighting trying to stay in Z2. |
| 2013-05-18 9:11 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Regular 287 Levittown, PA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Thanks to those who replied so far. As for what time of day and stuff.......... I did my LT the same exact time of day as my run today and ran the same route and weather was almost identical. It was actually probably damn near perfect condtions on both days. Mid to upper 50's at 4:30am and barely any wind. I just can't rap my head around it. Even the person that posted just a bit ago said that once he heart rate gets too high its hard to control and bring back down. That was not even close to my issue this morning, I had to go from a comfortable pace of 9:30 to a very hard pace of 8:30 to even get to the bottom of my zone. This is nuts. I really hope somebody can help me out here. I really want this to work. As for the person saying it should be an easy conversational pace that you could carry all day. That is exactly what I was expecting. 8:30 is a very labored pace for me that unless I was doing another LT test or race, I would rarely spend any time in that zone during training at the level of fitness I am at right now. I don't get it If i took another LT test and it actually came out with a higher reading I have no idea what I would even do. I can't even deal with the zone 2 numbers I am at right now. Also, my top of zone 2 is 163 and my max HR for todays session was 164 and I just checked my nike+ app and it says my fastest pace at any given time today was 8' 11". That is probably 90 seconds faster than a pace I feel is my RPE equivalent of a 4 or 5 on a scale of 10. Edited by spiderjunior 2013-05-18 9:14 AM |
| 2013-05-18 9:16 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| Extreme Veteran 1018 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Do another test. Soak your HRM strap too before putting it on. May have some static build up on your shirt. |
| 2013-05-18 10:04 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| 145 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions How old are you? If I averaged 180bpm over 20 minutes I'm quite confident I would be dead. |
| 2013-05-18 10:49 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| 287 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions You did answer your questions. Your field test revealed an average HR of 180 bpm for the last 20 minutes of your "time trial". You stated I "busted" my rear end in doing this test. You then plugged your field test results into a "formula" that created training zones. You then ran and found out the "created training 2 zone" was too hard to be zone 2 like. Step away and look at the big picture. Feedback from your zone 2 training run indicates "issues" with the created zones. It is likely a good portion of your 30 minute field test was performed above the so called Lactate threshold level. Solution(s): manually recreate the training zones based upon your feedback or preform the "field test" at a level you can "hold" for 60 minutes. Experience will only help you make small and needed adjustments in the future. |
| 2013-05-18 11:39 AM in reply to: Billyk |
| Regular 287 Levittown, PA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by Billyk You did answer your questions. Your field test revealed an average HR of 180 bpm for the last 20 minutes of your "time trial". You stated I "busted" my rear end in doing this test. You then plugged your field test results into a "formula" that created training zones. You then ran and found out the "created training 2 zone" was too hard to be zone 2 like. Step away and look at the big picture. Feedback from your zone 2 training run indicates "issues" with the created zones. It is likely a good portion of your 30 minute field test was performed above the so called Lactate threshold level. Solution(s): manually recreate the training zones based upon your feedback or preform the "field test" at a level you can "hold" for 60 minutes. Experience will only help you make small and needed adjustments in the future. Run test protocol: After a 15 minute warm-up of easy running, finish with a few quick 20 seconds bursts to get your heart rate in the correct training zone. The 30 minute TT begins. At 10 minutes into the test, hit the 'Lap' button on your heart rate monitor, to get the average heart rate over the final 20 minutes of the test. The average for the final 20 minutes is your Lactate Threshold or LT. You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had. ========== The above info is directly from Mike's thread that he started about figuring out your zones. I did this 100% as accurately as I could. I would rather not "manually recreate" the training zones. The above test does not mention anything about a 60 min test and when you say a portion of my TT was probably performed above LT........... Maybe i don't understand the whole LT thing completely but when doing a LT test shouldn't you push yourself to the almost very limit in order to find your LT??? That is what I tried to do to make my numbers as "valid" as possible. |
| 2013-05-18 12:56 PM in reply to: spiderjunior |
Pro 6582  Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Trust the test result as it sounds like you did it correctly. Your zone result is accurate. My first z2 run (5mi) after my first test was an eye opener. I had to walk a few times to stay on zone. However several weeks later I ran a 5k pr without any speed running. Also, the other thing I learned was that my rpe was out of wack and over time I dialed it in to where hrm isn't needed. Now don't be a slave to the number. My z2 runs will take me about a mile to get near the zone. The key is to have consistent pace on your run so that at the end you in the mid to upper part of the range. I found it helpful to take a race time and use mcmillan.com run calc to see the training paces it provides. For myself they correlated well with my hr zones. |
| 2013-05-18 1:07 PM in reply to: Donto |
| Regular 287 Levittown, PA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by Donto Trust the test result as it sounds like you did it correctly. Your zone result is accurate. My first z2 run (5mi) after my first test was an eye opener. I had to walk a few times to stay on zone. Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I mean though, you are saying that you had to WALK to stay in zone 2. I am getting the exact opposite results. I am pushing very hard to stay at the low end of zone 2. If i walked I would probably drop 20 bpm or more below zone 2. My comfortable pace is 9:30 or below and today at several different times I was running an 8:30 pace just so that I didn't drop out of the bottom range of zone 2. Something has to be wrong. Every other person is saying they can get bored in zone 2 and they have to walk to keep their heart rate down. It took me 2 miles of running to even REACH zone 2 and it was hard to keep it there. |
| 2013-05-18 1:30 PM in reply to: chris948 |
| Veteran 487 Nova Scotia, Canada | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by chris948 How old are you? If I averaged 180bpm over 20 minutes I'm quite confident I would be dead. I'm 33, my last 10k I was we'll over 180 for 80% of the run. I hit mid 190s at one point. Everyone is different. Your HR is pretty personalized. I know a girl who runs marathons who can't keep her HR under 200 on easy training runs. To the OP however, if your running in Z2 and its hard then your doing something wrong. Weither it's the calculations or a problem with your HR strap. |
| 2013-05-18 8:30 PM in reply to: BigDaddyD79 |
| 287 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by BigDaddyD79 To the OP however, if your running in Z2 and its hard then your doing something wrong. Weither it's the calculations or a problem with your HR strap. +1 Correct pace in Zone 2 runs is not what you are experiencing and posting about on this thread. Your going to get more confused if I add more comments. |
| 2013-05-18 11:51 PM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| Veteran 493 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Pretty clear one if the two runs represent an anomaly. Easier to do a z2 run again and test whether that was an accurate representation of your z2 or not. So go for another z2 run and see what happens. If you see the same result then your LT is more likely off. So redo the LTT. If you get the same LT out of that, and the numbers say your z2 is still what you perceive to be too high, then don't worry about the numbers. Run at what you feel to be your nice and easy z2. |
| 2013-05-19 10:20 AM in reply to: Erockk |
8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by Erockk It should be a conversation run. Anything that your able to talk and hold a conversation is prob your zone two. You might want to try to us the default zones. The 220 - age one.
Please don't give this advice. 220-age has ZERO scientific evidence of being remotely useful. Please read the HR thread on BT. |
| 2013-05-19 10:27 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Spider Here's my $0.02: 1. What type of workouts have you done leading into this 'easy run' today? There are 3 metrics to use when running: 2. HR 3. RPE You had RPE to fall back on since HR wasn't working. You didn't tell us what your Avg Pace was for your test, but let's say it was 7:45. Add 90-120" to that pace and that should be your long run pace/ Zone 2 / RPE odf 6/10. That would put you at 9:15 to 9:45. I hope this helps you figure this out. Another option of course is to race a 5k or 10k - this will give you LT pace and HR. RPE should be 9/10 when it's all said and done. |
| 2013-05-19 11:51 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Expert 1183 Fort Wayne, IN | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions I got a new HR monitor strap that did not work correctly. It was reading WAY too high. I sent this data to Garmin and they sent me a replacement. Could this be your problem? Edited by nickster 2013-05-19 11:53 AM (heart_rate.jpg) Attachments ---------------- heart_rate.jpg (184KB - 22 downloads) |
| 2013-05-19 10:09 PM in reply to: nickster |
| Veteran 732 Pittsburgh, PA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions This thread is interesting to me because I have had a very similar experience. In fact I made this thread: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp... But, yeah, my Zone 2 was much higher than expected, and I'm definitely running faster (less slow?) on training runs now that I try to keep them in Zone 2. It's hard to know if I was just a huge wuss before, or if the zones are wrong. Even the thing about "talking in full sentences"... if I time my breaths so that i get out a full sentence on the exhale, I'm good, but I'm not sure if that counts. |
| 2013-05-19 10:48 PM in reply to: chayes |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by chayes This thread is interesting to me because I have had a very similar experience. In fact I made this thread: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp... But, yeah, my Zone 2 was much higher than expected, and I'm definitely running faster (less slow?) on training runs now that I try to keep them in Zone 2. It's hard to know if I was just a huge wuss before, or if the zones are wrong. Even the thing about "talking in full sentences"... if I time my breaths so that i get out a full sentence on the exhale, I'm good, but I'm not sure if that counts.
You shouldn't be timing the breaths - that's cheating and it's not 'easy'. This isn't that hard. Run easier IF you want to get better. |
| 2013-05-20 2:43 AM in reply to: 0 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Training is testing and testing is training. Understanding the "problem" with yoru 2 runs will require some understanding of exercise physiology, which you can easily leanr the basics. Aaerobic vs aerobic & the contribtutions of each energy system in different durations of training. Zone 2 is intended to be entirely aereobic with very little carb use, mostly fats and no build up of lactate. This means almost by definitoin that breathing is easy...there is no acidosis which si the stimulus for increased breathing rate. The 20 or 30 minute test...especially if you started out really easy in the first 10 minutes of a 30 minute test and then went all out, is going to have a large anaerobic contribution to it, which eventually leads to the burning sensations in your legs and lungs. The effort is a blend of energy sources. This test is really just a substitute for establishing the HR zones. Everyone's 'curve' from the bottom of zone 2 to the max effort is going to look different in terms of both duration of effort and absolute heart rate. A picture would help here. Bottom line...the test in did is no more or less valid than the RPE you are describing. By everything you've understood about zone 2 training, trust the RPE right now. Keep collecting data and do some different assessment tests like Mike R suggested. The test you quoted here is just ONE among dozens of different ways to establish zones in training. Go run a 5k or a 10k, go get a treadmill based Lactate test done, go have your vo2 tested in a lab on a treadmill, go do a 4 x 1600m test. Go do a test where you take your avg HR for the last 20 minutes, subtract 20 (or 30) beats and see how long it takes you to run 2 miles at that HR. Repeat that test after 4 weeks of your 10:xx pace training. Training is testing and testing is training Try the Karvonen formula instead which creates zones based on yoru observed max HR and your resting HR. This actually gives you a full range of HR zones from resting to your actual VO2...it's a very accurate system since it's fundamentally aligned with your natural physiology. You will always be cross referencing and triangulating your training zones, or at least you always SHOULD be doing so. HR is jsut a number. Trust your body's signals more. Edited by AdventureBear 2013-05-20 2:48 AM |
| 2013-05-20 5:04 AM in reply to: AdventureBear |
| Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by AdventureBear Training is testing and testing is training. Understanding the "problem" with yoru 2 runs will require some understanding of exercise physiology, which you can easily leanr the basics. Aaerobic vs aerobic & the contribtutions of each energy system in different durations of training. Zone 2 is intended to be entirely aereobic with very little carb use, mostly fats and no build up of lactate. This means almost by definitoin that breathing is easy...there is no acidosis which si the stimulus for increased breathing rate. The 20 or 30 minute test...especially if you started out really easy in the first 10 minutes of a 30 minute test and then went all out, is going to have a large anaerobic contribution to it, which eventually leads to the burning sensations in your legs and lungs. The effort is a blend of energy sources. This test is really just a substitute for establishing the HR zones. Everyone's 'curve' from the bottom of zone 2 to the max effort is going to look different in terms of both duration of effort and absolute heart rate. A picture would help here. Bottom line...the test in did is no more or less valid than the RPE you are describing. By everything you've understood about zone 2 training, trust the RPE right now. Keep collecting data and do some different assessment tests like Mike R suggested. The test you quoted here is just ONE among dozens of different ways to establish zones in training. Go run a 5k or a 10k, go get a treadmill based Lactate test done, go have your vo2 tested in a lab on a treadmill, go do a 4 x 1600m test. Go do a test where you take your avg HR for the last 20 minutes, subtract 20 (or 30) beats and see how long it takes you to run 2 miles at that HR. Repeat that test after 4 weeks of your 10:xx pace training. Training is testing and testing is training Try the Karvonen formula instead which creates zones based on yoru observed max HR and your resting HR. This actually gives you a full range of HR zones from resting to your actual VO2...it's a very accurate system since it's fundamentally aligned with your natural physiology. You will always be cross referencing and triangulating your training zones, or at least you always SHOULD be doing so. HR is jsut a number. Trust your body's signals more. Excellent post!!! |
| 2013-05-20 6:24 AM in reply to: AdventureBear |
| 246 | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Originally posted by AdventureBear Training is testing and testing is training. Try the Karvonen formula instead which creates zones based on yoru observed max HR and your resting HR. This actually gives you a full range of HR zones from resting to your actual VO2...it's a very accurate system since it's fundamentally aligned with your natural physiology. You will always be cross referencing and triangulating your training zones, or at least you always SHOULD be doing so. X2.....This is what I did (above). My first .5 mile HR is opposite of your problem. It scoots up very quickly but then even though I'm running faster splits, it comes down and settles in almost to the beat every run at the same pace. I needed lots of data to hone into my zones. I had my VO2 max test done, etc. Give yourself some time to do the same. |
| 2013-05-20 7:04 AM in reply to: cpzone |
| Regular 172 Arlington, VA | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions All I can do is agree with others. Your methods seem fine, but the numbers just don't make sense. I have what my coach calls a "butterfly heart." That is, my training regularly breaks 200 bpm. Even with such a high heart rate, 167 bpm is the bottom of my zone 4. I can't imagine that that is actually your Zone 2. If I were you (or me, as this is what I did), I would just shell out the $100-$150 and get professionally VO2Max tested. You can be confident in the results. If those are still such that Z2 is hard for you to get into, then maybe you are in fact physiologically different. Not necessarily a bad thing, but you may need to do pace-based training instead of HR training. |
| 2013-05-20 7:09 AM in reply to: spiderjunior |
| Regular 309 Euless, Texas | Subject: RE: Zone 2 runners......... have some questions Interesting post....because over the past few weeks, I've created my HR zones and have been trying to run in Z2 most of the time. My Z2 is a little harder to stay in than I thought. Of course, now I can't find them because the format of this site has changed  But I know my upper limit is 158. So I think it's 147-158. That puts me at about a 8:55 mile. That's not hard for me to hold, but harder than I thought a Z2 run would be. And I fear that if I run slower that I would be more in the recovery zone and that wouldn't be beneficial. I have kind of noticed twice this past week that when I ran outside I was able to run faster than normal. Not sure if that means anything yet because I've only been running in Z2 for a few weeks now. |
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