The value of upper body strength training
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2006-12-02 8:45 PM |
Expert 1024 | Subject: The value of upper body strength training Sort of slow around here for a Saturday night. So here's a question to get things heated up. When I look through folks training logs, I see lots of folks doing strenth training. Most of the logs I look at, folks are spending a lot of time working upper body (chest, back, arms) and not legs. Yes, this will obviously have advantages for the swim part. But not so much for the bike and run part. 1. Why should I spend a lot of time doing strength training. What benefit is it to me for triathlon (injury prevention?) 2. Should I spend more time on lower body, upper body or equal amounts on each. I really don't like strength training. So please give me good motivation for doing it. Without a good reason, I'll never make myself sacrifice s/b/r time. |
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2006-12-02 8:54 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training If it's an either/or decision, you're better off sticking with the actual sports than "sacrific(ing) s/b/r time" for time in the weight room. |
2006-12-02 9:04 PM in reply to: #614323 |
Champion 6627 Rochester Hills, Michigan | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training the bear - 2006-12-02 9:54 PM If it's an either/or decision, you're better off sticking with the actual sports than "sacrific(ing) s/b/r time" for time in the weight room. The other way to look at it is that strength training is addressing a limiter. For me...for the base period...will log 2-3 full body workouts per week, and 4-5 core workouts per week until it comes time to be sport-specific. For me, this will address limiters - strength on the swim (addressed by upper body, swim-specific weights), and power on the bike (addressed by core, as a huge amount of your riding power is generated from your core). There are many options for addressing the limiters, of course. including bear's 'do more s/b/r'. But being in the north, riding lots means riding on the trainer, which is really boring ....so I'm open to other alternatives. For swimming, I can do funky sets to address 'em, I just get o-so-bored in the pool. So weights provide variety, and IMHO, as much benefit, if not more, when combined with some level of the sport-specific training. For you...you've got to decide what's going to address your limiters. If it's power, or strength, and what you've been doing hasn't worked, assess the options. Weights may be one of 'em. But if you don't try, you'll never know. Until you get passed. Just kiddin', but you get my drift. FWIW on a S-A-TUR-D-A-Y NIGHT. |
2006-12-02 9:53 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Elite 3067 Cheesehead, WI | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training I do light weights in a weight class. It's sort of aerobic (squats and lunges are anyhow) and done with low weights for high reps. I find that overall, between running and biking and lunges and squats -- my legs are stronger than my arms all things being equal simply because they get more of a workout. Swimming really works my arms and since I'm not strong in my upper body, I like to add weight training to them. Also, I view weights as a boost to keeping my bone density in check as a woman. I do thing though that when I get close to a race this summer, I'll drop the weights and work in more tri training mainly due to time constraints. |
2006-12-02 10:07 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Elite 2493 Chicago, IL | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training When I started running, all I did was run. Granted, I made it through the races and the marathons... but my upper body was never as strong as my lower body. I didn't like that, but never bothered with weights. I didn't think they would help my running, so I didn't bother. Now it's totally different. I broke my foot in Spring and when it started to heal, I jumped on the spinning wagon. Before class, everyone is working the weights, etc... so I jumped in that routine as well. I have since had some lessons from a personal trainer, and I absolutely love working the weights. So now I get great leg strength training from running and from spinning, and my upper body strength comes from my weight routine. .. and to top it off, I've been doing some last minute fall running races, and I feel stronger than ever... and I know it's from doing the upper body weights... why I thought previously I didn't need it, I'll never know. I probably spend 50/50 on lower and upper... however, my lower builds faster no doubt. I've always had strong legs, but I still put in equal time on both parts Edited by pigfinn 2006-12-02 10:08 PM |
2006-12-02 10:17 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Expert 944 Waller County, TX | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training No motivation from here, I find it boring and almost a waste of time, but if your options are limited, then strength training is better than nothing. Actually swimming, biking, and running makes you better at swimming, biking, and running. My .02 |
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2006-12-02 10:22 PM in reply to: #614366 |
Elite 2493 Chicago, IL | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training jkron - 2006-12-02 10:17 PM No motivation from here, I find it boring and almost a waste of time, but if your options are limited, then strength training is better than nothing. Actually swimming, biking, and running makes you better at swimming, biking, and running. My .02 just curious... you don't do any weights?, is that what you are saying? |
2006-12-02 11:14 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training I just came across an interesting article on this very topic from the Strength and Conditioning Journal. No, I don't subscribe to this journal, so don't ask how I got the article because I neither admit nor deny any knowledge about anything. Here is the summary: Endurance can be defined as the ability to maintain or to repeat a given force or power output. The sport performance–endurance relationship is a multi-factorial concept. However, evidence indicates that maximum strength is a major component. Conceptually, endurance is a continuum. The literature indicates that (a) maximum strength is moderately to strongly related to endurance capabilities and associated factors, a relationship that is likely stronger for high intensity exercise endurance (HIEE) activities than for low intensity exercise endurance (LIEE); (b) strength training can increase both HIEE and LIEE, the effect being greater for HIEE; (c) the volume of strength training plays a role in endurance adaptation; and (d) mechanical specificity and training program variables also play a role in the degree of adaptation. As to why I do it, I believe that it does help my endurance, but even if it didn't I would still weight train because I enjoy it. As someone mentioned, it adds variety, and if you live in a cold climate, like I do, where snow makes running outside dangerous (I don't mind the cold but I'm not going to run on ice surfaces) and the idea of spending time on the "dreadmill" just makes me want to hang myself, weights provide a much-needed alternative. You're probably asking how weights can help endurance. I've recently started doing barbell complexes. I even thought about posting an article on this because it's a way to get a quick, intense workout in - might be handy during this rather busy time of year. If anyone's interested (Ron?), let me know. The best way to describe a complex is circuit training written by a person with ADHD. You use one barbell, do all the exercises with the same weight, with absolutely no rest between exercises. Here is an example: Power snatch x 8 reps Front squat x 8 reps Power clean x 8 reps Back squat x 8 reps Rest 90 seconds. Repeat 3 more times resting 90 seconds between complexes. This is a "baby" one. I did one today with 8 exercises. Because you need to reduce the weight LOTS to get through these they won't build gobs of strength, but they will help preserve strength you've already built. And if you generally don't lift you probably WILL see some increases strength. They'll work mostly the anaerobic system, so you're not directly building endurance. However, think of these as interval work with a barbell. Also, anaerobic work has been shown to be a great fat burner, so if you overeat at the office holiday party, complexes will help keep you lean. |
2006-12-03 6:19 AM in reply to: #614316 |
Pro 5123 Canandaigua NY | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training I like strength training for the upper body just to keep some variety in the time spent training. In addition, I started the running and biking thing to lose weight and the arms were getting flabby. I added core training because it helped with the biking and running. Occasionally I will do some leg training, but I am careful with this depending on the run and bike schedule. I also play ice hockey in the winter and the upper body strength helps with this. I think if I had to make a time choice, I would eliminate the upper body weight training, but I feel the core training is important to improving the S/B/R. |
2006-12-03 10:08 AM in reply to: #614316 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training No proven benefits for a triathlete unless you are rehabing an injury. You don't like it. Seems like an easy decision. Skip it and just s/b/r. That's the way to address any limiters. Strength is not a limiter for most any triathlete in any of the 3 sports. "Specificity" will provide far more benefit. |
2006-12-03 10:11 AM in reply to: #614316 |
Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training These threads always end the same, a debate between whether triathletes should lift or not. I'm firmly in the camp that it's a waste of time (precious for most of us) in making one a better triathlete. The scientific evidence is overwhelming in this regard. The best way to improve your swimming, cycling and/or running is through swimming, cycling and/or running. Now, since most of us do this for fun, you should do what you enjoy. If that includes lifting weights, great. Or if you want to counter the catabolic nature of endurance events, then you should probably add some strength training. The injury prenvention angle is not supported by scientific evidence, but rehabilitative needs do exist. My advice to someone who wants to lift is to focus on "core", stabiltiy/balance, and the posterior (hamstrings, glutes, lats, triceps, etc.). scott |
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2006-12-03 10:34 AM in reply to: #614477 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training yaqui - 2006-12-03 10:11 AM These threads always end the same, a debate between whether triathletes should lift or not. I'm firmly in the camp that it's a waste of time (precious for most of us) in making one a better triathlete. The scientific evidence is overwhelming in this regard. The best way to improve your swimming, cycling and/or running is through swimming, cycling and/or running. Umm, no, the scientific evidence is not "overwhelming" on either side. I'd say it's fairly equivocal with a slight lean in favor of strength training. The injury prenvention angle is not supported by scientific evidence, but rehabilitative needs do exist. Again, not so sure about what the science supports. One could argue that if strength training can help rehab an injury, then it could prevent it as well - so called "pre-habilitation." In my own experience, I currently weigh 225 yet run 3+ miles on hard surfaces at least 2x a week (I do treadmill or something else the other days) with no overuse injuries in my joints. Could be I have good genetics for joint health, could be my many years of strength training, or a combination. Now, since most of us do this for fun, you should do what you enjoy. Something we agree on. If someone hates lifting, I'm not going to force them to lift. If someone even remotely likes lifting, I would strongly recommend they do so. |
2006-12-03 10:42 AM in reply to: #614316 |
Elite 3067 Cheesehead, WI | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training Didn't Tiger Woods start lifting and it helped with his game? I mean who'd think lifting and golf would go together right? Strength would seem to lend well to both performance and endurance as long as its done with moderation and not at the cost of core or sport specific training. |
2006-12-03 10:45 AM in reply to: #614495 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training MikeTheBear - 2006-12-03 10:34 AM In my own experience, I currently weigh 225 yet run 3+ miles on hard surfaces at least 2x a week (I do treadmill or something else the other days) with no overuse injuries in my joints. Could be I have good genetics for joint health, could be my many years of strength training, or a combination. I may be reading this wrong, but even at 225 pounds, six miles per week on concrete would not likely make anybody a candidate for overuse injuries. Certainly doesn't support strength training as a cure. Edited by the bear 2006-12-03 10:47 AM |
2006-12-03 11:58 AM in reply to: #614316 |
Champion 6056 Menomonee Falls, WI | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training As a lifelong weightlifter prior to getting into triathlons several years ago, here are the benefits I've found personally: -- first, more muscle mass helps you improve your overall metabolism and burn more calories. That's a real issue for those of us who aren't tiny little whippets and still like to tip a beer or two. -- stronger swim stroke. I've noticed my stronger upper body allows me to get more from each swim stroke than most people especially when I'm wearing a wetsuit to help get my butt higher in the water. -- I have no proof of this, but I believe my lifelong training allows me to perform longer at super-LT levels because my body is more accustomed to clearing lactic acid following long training sessions. This is especially helpful on hills (both biking and running) and in finishing sprints. I also believe this extra strength provides me with a psychological edge in these situations. -- my wife likes the fact I don't look like those "twiggy" walking skeleton triathletes. Of course, I don't exactly finish in the same time-zone as them, either. -- strength-training allows me to perform better in sports beyond triathlon. Much as I love this sport, I also love softball, volleyball, golf and racquetball. Strength-training helps me in all these sports. -- I simply enjoy weightlifting. Just like some people enjoy a good run or bike just for the workout, I like lifting weights and seeing the improvement of squeezing out an extra rep or moving up 10 pounds for a set. |
2006-12-03 1:13 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Regular 149 Minneapolis, Minnesota | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training I think it really comes down to time, doesn't it? If you have more time to train, then do weights and core stuff; but if you're barely scraping together 3 hours a week (like me), then stick to the s/b/r. That said, anytime I run upwards of 8 miles, I feel my abs giving out and my c-section scar starts to pull. I think I could fix that if I did some ab work a few times a week... I know it would help in my long-distance races. |
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2006-12-03 1:37 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Veteran 203 Candler, North Carolina | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training I do 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, and 20 pull-ups 5 days a week to maintain upper-body strength. I'll weight train sporadically during the winter, but get bored with the gym. I love to run, bike and swim, but I feel it is important to maintain a well rounded fitness program. |
2006-12-03 2:01 PM in reply to: #614371 |
Expert 944 Waller County, TX | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training Yes, very little. I do core exercises with an 8-lb medicine ball and a stability ball, and a lot of stretching on Tuesday mornings and if I'm watching some TV, but that's about it. I have a "home gym", but don't use it much. Much more prefer to swim, bike and run. |
2006-12-03 3:36 PM in reply to: #614501 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training the bear - 2006-12-03 10:45 AM MikeTheBear - 2006-12-03 10:34 AM In my own experience, I currently weigh 225 yet run 3+ miles on hard surfaces at least 2x a week (I do treadmill or something else the other days) with no overuse injuries in my joints. Could be I have good genetics for joint health, could be my many years of strength training, or a combination. I may be reading this wrong, but even at 225 pounds, six miles per week on concrete would not likely make anybody a candidate for overuse injuries. Certainly doesn't support strength training as a cure. You're correct that I purposely limit my outside running give my weight, and you're probably right that 6 miles on asphalt/concrete isn't too strenuous on the joints. I do supplement on the treadmill but I set it at an incline to maximize impact absorption. I think endurance athletes are divided into three groups: (1) those who believe that strength training is beneficial; (2) those who believe that strength training is a waste of time; and (3) those who don't care how it affects their performance but who lift weights simple because they want to "look good nekkid." I am obviously an advocate of strength training, but I try not to be zealous. I readily admit that the scientific jury is still out on whether it's beneficial or not. This is why the post that said that there was "overwhelming scientific evidence" suggesting that it was a waste of time really ticked my off. This is simply false. Here are the two options as I see them: If you're only interested in becoming a better triathlete, then experiment with strength training to see if it helps. If you truly can't stand it or don't have time to do it, then don't bother. If you're interested in optimum health, I believe strength training is essential. Just read some of the posts that described the benefits: increased bone density, increased joint strength (BTW, I think stronger joints would be more resilient to injury), and increased muscle mass (important for maintaining low bodyfat levels as muscle burns calories even while you sleep). |
2006-12-03 4:22 PM in reply to: #614527 |
Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training >>"-- first, more muscle mass helps you improve your overall metabolism and burn more calories. That's a real issue for those of us who aren't tiny little whippets and still like to tip a beer or two." This is a myth. The "boost" in metabolism from lifting weights is miniscule. You would see a bigger increase from cardio activity. >>"-- stronger swim stroke. I've noticed my stronger upper body allows me to get more from each swim stroke than most people especially when I'm wearing a wetsuit to help get my butt higher in the water." No it doesn't. If this were true 13 year old girls wouldn't be able to kick our in the pool. >>"-- I have no proof of this, but I believe my lifelong training allows me to perform longer at super-LT levels because my body is more accustomed to clearing lactic acid following long training sessions. This is especially helpful on hills (both biking and running) and in finishing sprints. I also believe this extra strength provides me with a psychological edge in these situations." Again, simply not true. There is no scientific evidence to subtantiate this. I'll take your word on on what your wife likes and the fact that you enjoy lifting is a great reason to. Not so sure how it helps you play softball though. scott |
2006-12-03 4:46 PM in reply to: #614495 |
Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training >>"Umm, no, the scientific evidence is not "overwhelming" on either side. I'd say it's fairly equivocal with a slight lean in favor of strength training." Please show me where I can find peer reviewed studies that support the benefit of strength training for endurance athletes. I know they don't exist at pub/med. >>"Again, not so sure about what the science supports. One could argue that if strength training can help rehab an injury, then it could prevent it as well - so called "pre-habilitation." In my own experience, I currently weigh 225 yet run 3+ miles on hard surfaces at least 2x a week (I do treadmill or something else the other days) with no overuse injuries in my joints. Could be I have good genetics for joint health, could be my many years of strength training, or a combination." "So called" kind of sums it up. I do agree that if there's a specific weakness, isolated strength training can be used to address it. I also feel that working on stability/balance will improve proprioception, which could reduce some injury risk. Anyway, I'm really not trying to argue this, despite how I'm coming off. We do agree that if you enjoy lifting, or the way you look because of lifting, then find the time to lift. scott |
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2006-12-03 5:06 PM in reply to: #614615 |
Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training This is not a myth, and you misrepresented the point being made. There was no claim made of lifting burning more calories. Having more muscle mass gained from lifting DOES raise your basal metabolic rate. There's little, if any difference in basal metabolic rate from aerobic exercise. yaqui - 2006-12-03 4:22 PM >>"-- first, more muscle mass helps you improve your overall metabolism and burn more calories. That's a real issue for those of us who aren't tiny little whippets and still like to tip a beer or two." This is a myth. The "boost" in metabolism from lifting weights is miniscule. You would see a bigger increase from cardio activity. |
2006-12-03 5:25 PM in reply to: #614316 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training Didn't we beat, chop-up, process, and make into dog food this dead horse in the last week or so? |
2006-12-03 5:28 PM in reply to: #614615 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training yaqui - 2006-12-03 4:22 PM >>"-- I have no proof of this, but I believe my lifelong training allows me to perform longer at super-LT levels because my body is more accustomed to clearing lactic acid following long training sessions. This is especially helpful on hills (both biking and running) and in finishing sprints. I also believe this extra strength provides me with a psychological edge in these situations." Again, simply not true. There is no scientific evidence to subtantiate this. Scott, I enjoy these debates and I don't think you're necessarily being confrontational. But the above quote is an example of one of my peeves. Just because scientific studies have not substantiated it does not necessarily mean that something is "not true." It just means it hasn't been substantiated in a controlled setting. There's a big difference. And in the strength training arena, sometimes anecdotal evidence can be very useful. I believe there have been studies that have shown that strength training improves hill-climbing in cycling. But even without studies, think about what effective hill-climbing requires: power and anaerobic endurance. Power requires a base of strength - this is why Olympic weightlifters do squats to supplement their training in the lifts. Anaerobic endurance can be developed several ways, strength training being one of them. Can you get better at climbing hills on a bike by just climbing hills on a bike? Of course, but why limit yourself? And as for the psychological advantage, this is a purely individual thing that can't really be confirmed by a study. It's all about the power of suggestion. If I tell an athlete that strength training will improve his or her performance, chances are good that performace will improve due to psychological well-being even if the strength training had zero impact on actual physical performance. If this weren't true, there would be no trash talking in pro sports. |
2006-12-03 5:36 PM in reply to: #614639 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: The value of upper body strength training Rocket Man - 2006-12-03 5:25 PM Didn't we beat, chop-up, process, and make into dog food this dead horse in the last week or so? Yes, but apparently, we still need to make the glue. |
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