Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 (Page 10)
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2012-05-07 4:23 PM in reply to: #4195683 |
Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 lisac957 - 2012-05-07 5:09 PM Renee - 2012-05-07 4:06 PM lisac957 - 2012-05-07 4:18 PM Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. They all have roommates - whether it be a buddy, a co-worker, or a family member, none of them just have a place of their own. Depends on the circumstances. Each guy is an individual; assess individually. I don't think you gain much insight with blanket statements or assumptions. A man who keeps his own home and pays his own bills is, at face value, more attractive than a man who does not. But I wouldn't assume too much from that one data point. As a woman who has lived alone for many years, a roommate would not work for me. I like my space and not having to consider anyone when I walk around my house in various states of undress. What was my blanket assumption? Just observing here, and wondering if it was common in other people's experiences or not. I didn't say you made a blanket assumption. I was suggesting that if you were to do so, it wouldn't necessarily lead to understanding or insight into these men. Circumstances vary. Everyone's reasons are different. Take people one at a time; that's how you'll find them. I agree that living conditions are something to consider when assessing. As you said, not a deal breaker, but something to consider. Capito? |
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2012-05-07 4:36 PM in reply to: #4195558 |
Elite 5145 Cleveland | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 lisac957 - 2012-05-07 4:18 PM Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. They all have roommates - whether it be a buddy, a co-worker, or a family member, none of them just have a place of their own. Is this common with 30-something males, or just a coincidence in the ones I've dated? Are they being smart with their money? Maybe they're social creatures? Or perhaps still living in a college-style mindset (which is the impression I get from most). Maybe it's because I have lived alone and owned my own house for 7 years, but part of me is a bit leery of dating a guy who hasn't ever lived on his own or had to pay bills independent of anyone else. It's not a deal breaker by any means, just something I realized the other day. Discuss. I have no idea if it is just the guys you're dating or what, but most of the guys I know that have gone onto actually getting careers have lived on their own for a long, long time. Most of the guys working lesser paying jobs, or still partying a little too hard for their age still tend to grativate toward having roommates. I've owned my place and lived alone since before I was even 30, so it's definitely not a global 30-something sorta thing. |
2012-05-07 5:04 PM in reply to: #4195558 |
Master 2099 Madison, WI | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 lisac957 - 2012-05-07 3:18 PM Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. I tend a bit older than you (guys in their 40's), and it's a relatively small pool of guys that I have gone out on more than 1 date, so take it for what you will. But, of the ones I've dated, they either own their own home and have a room mate to help pay the bills (2) or own their own homes and live alone (1), or own their own home and live with their kids (2). I've had first dates with apartment dwellers, but generally found that we are incompatible on multiple levels - home ownership being but just one. |
2012-05-07 5:20 PM in reply to: #4195798 |
Master 1890 Gig Harbor | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 DeannaS - 2012-05-07 3:04 PM lisac957 - 2012-05-07 3:18 PM I tend a bit older than you (guys in their 40's), and it's a relatively small pool of guys that I have gone out on more than 1 date, so take it for what you will. But, of the ones I've dated, they either own their own home and have a room mate to help pay the bills (2) or own their own homes and live alone (1), or own their own home and live with their kids (2). I've had first dates with apartment dwellers, but generally found that we are incompatible on multiple levels - home ownership being but just one.Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. Sure, throw us Apt dwellers under the bus (smiling)... What if they are former home owners, who are now apartment dwellers? |
2012-05-07 5:32 PM in reply to: #4195832 |
Master 2099 Madison, WI | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Muskrat37 - 2012-05-07 5:20 PM DeannaS - 2012-05-07 3:04 PM lisac957 - 2012-05-07 3:18 PM I tend a bit older than you (guys in their 40's), and it's a relatively small pool of guys that I have gone out on more than 1 date, so take it for what you will. But, of the ones I've dated, they either own their own home and have a room mate to help pay the bills (2) or own their own homes and live alone (1), or own their own home and live with their kids (2). I've had first dates with apartment dwellers, but generally found that we are incompatible on multiple levels - home ownership being but just one.Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. Sure, throw us Apt dwellers under the bus (smiling)... What if they are former home owners, who are now apartment dwellers? I'm not throwing apartment dwellers under the bus - only saying what my limited personal experience has shown. I went on a date with one apartment dweller that I would have dated again, but he wasn't interested, if that helps. (Though, truth be told, he was probably right in his assessment of our compatibility more than I was. I just happened to find him smokin' hot.) |
2012-05-07 6:13 PM in reply to: #4195832 |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Muskrat37 - 2012-05-07 6:20 PM DeannaS - 2012-05-07 3:04 PM lisac957 - 2012-05-07 3:18 PM I tend a bit older than you (guys in their 40's), and it's a relatively small pool of guys that I have gone out on more than 1 date, so take it for what you will. But, of the ones I've dated, they either own their own home and have a room mate to help pay the bills (2) or own their own homes and live alone (1), or own their own home and live with their kids (2). I've had first dates with apartment dwellers, but generally found that we are incompatible on multiple levels - home ownership being but just one.Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. Sure, throw us Apt dwellers under the bus (smiling)... What if they are former home owners, who are now apartment dwellers? Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! |
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2012-05-07 6:23 PM in reply to: #4195913 |
Master 2099 Madison, WI | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-07 6:13 PM Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! Geez. You're making me sound all mean and nasty. :P Just my personal experience so far, that's all. Madison isn't very urban. It's a "live in a crap apartment while you're a student, buy a house when you're a grown-up" kind of place. I can't say that all apartment dwellers would be incompatible with me - just the ones I've met so far. (For reference, I've also met home owners with which I am incompatible.) I am uber thankful that my ex walked away from my house, otherwise, I'd probably be an apartment dweller, too. So, I'm not without empathy for those that are paying for houses they no longer live in. |
2012-05-07 6:34 PM in reply to: #4195928 |
Master 1795 Boynton Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Ok, I will finally chime in on the roomate/apt comments... I do live alone and in an apartment. It's a transition time for me and wasnt ready to make another purchase while still paying another mortgage. More importantly though, not ready to call one part of town home so liike idea of renting at the moment. I'm 36 and couldn't imagine having a roomate at this stage of the game. I keep too busy a schedule and lifestyle to worry about anyone else in my place. Sometimes just nice to come home to the peace and quiet. Your right though in that is is usually a financial reason why someone (outside of thier 20's) would have a roomate IMHO. |
2012-05-07 6:35 PM in reply to: #4195855 |
Master 1890 Gig Harbor | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 DeannaS - 2012-05-07 3:32 PM Muskrat37 - 2012-05-07 5:20 PM I'm not throwing apartment dwellers under the bus - only saying what my limited personal experience has shown. I went on a date with one apartment dweller that I would have dated again, but he wasn't interested, if that helps. (Though, truth be told, he was probably right in his assessment of our compatibility more than I was. I just happened to find him smokin' hot.) DeannaS - 2012-05-07 3:04 PM lisac957 - 2012-05-07 3:18 PM I tend a bit older than you (guys in their 40's), and it's a relatively small pool of guys that I have gone out on more than 1 date, so take it for what you will. But, of the ones I've dated, they either own their own home and have a room mate to help pay the bills (2) or own their own homes and live alone (1), or own their own home and live with their kids (2). I've had first dates with apartment dwellers, but generally found that we are incompatible on multiple levels - home ownership being but just one.Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. Sure, throw us Apt dwellers under the bus (smiling)... What if they are former home owners, who are now apartment dwellers? It's ok...I have found that I am not compatible with carrots that own homes. |
2012-05-07 6:37 PM in reply to: #4195928 |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 DeannaS - 2012-05-07 7:23 PM BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-07 6:13 PM Geez. You're making me sound all mean and nasty. :P Just my personal experience so far, that's all. Madison isn't very urban. It's a "live in a crap apartment while you're a student, buy a house when you're a grown-up" kind of place. I can't say that all apartment dwellers would be incompatible with me - just the ones I've met so far. (For reference, I've also met home owners with which I am incompatible.) I am uber thankful that my ex walked away from my house, otherwise, I'd probably be an apartment dweller, too. So, I'm not without empathy for those that are paying for houses they no longer live in.Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! Naw, just teasing. But there is a major difference between a grown-up apartment and a college apartment. The adult apartment has nicer bikes in the living room |
2012-05-07 6:37 PM in reply to: #4195928 |
Champion 17756 SoCal | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 DeannaS - 2012-05-07 4:23 PM BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-07 6:13 PM Geez. You're making me sound all mean and nasty. :P Just my personal experience so far, that's all. Madison isn't very urban. It's a "live in a crap apartment while you're a student, buy a house when you're a grown-up" kind of place. I can't say that all apartment dwellers would be incompatible with me - just the ones I've met so far. (For reference, I've also met home owners with which I am incompatible.) I am uber thankful that my ex walked away from my house, otherwise, I'd probably be an apartment dweller, too. So, I'm not without empathy for those that are paying for houses they no longer live in.Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! How much is normal rent in your area? My area a 2 bedroom apartment runs from 1300 to 1900 depending on the area. A house is 2000+
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2012-05-07 6:45 PM in reply to: #4195952 |
Master 2099 Madison, WI | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Big Appa - 2012-05-07 6:37 PM DeannaS - 2012-05-07 4:23 PM BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-07 6:13 PM Geez. You're making me sound all mean and nasty. :P Just my personal experience so far, that's all. Madison isn't very urban. It's a "live in a crap apartment while you're a student, buy a house when you're a grown-up" kind of place. I can't say that all apartment dwellers would be incompatible with me - just the ones I've met so far. (For reference, I've also met home owners with which I am incompatible.) I am uber thankful that my ex walked away from my house, otherwise, I'd probably be an apartment dweller, too. So, I'm not without empathy for those that are paying for houses they no longer live in.Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! How much is normal rent in your area? My area a 2 bedroom apartment runs from 1300 to 1900 depending on the area. A house is 2000+
Around here, rent is almost as expensive as owning, unless you're living in student housing or slum lord rentals. So, if you can swing a down payment, owning is the way to go. |
2012-05-07 6:50 PM in reply to: #4195952 |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Big Appa - 2012-05-07 7:37 PM DeannaS - 2012-05-07 4:23 PM BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-07 6:13 PM Geez. You're making me sound all mean and nasty. :P Just my personal experience so far, that's all. Madison isn't very urban. It's a "live in a crap apartment while you're a student, buy a house when you're a grown-up" kind of place. I can't say that all apartment dwellers would be incompatible with me - just the ones I've met so far. (For reference, I've also met home owners with which I am incompatible.) I am uber thankful that my ex walked away from my house, otherwise, I'd probably be an apartment dweller, too. So, I'm not without empathy for those that are paying for houses they no longer live in.Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! How much is normal rent in your area? My area a 2 bedroom apartment runs from 1300 to 1900 depending on the area. A house is 2000+
Homes on my street go for around $575k and up. That would be no parking, single-family rowhome, around 1600-1800 sqft. Parking or a yard adds $50k to the price of a home. I rent the first and second floor of a restored 1870's row home, two bedrooms, backyard and parking. There are definitely no college students who can afford to live here, unless you count my son |
2012-05-07 8:37 PM in reply to: #4195928 |
Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 DeannaS - 2012-05-07 6:23 PM BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-07 6:13 PM Geez. You're making me sound all mean and nasty. :P Just my personal experience so far, that's all. Madison isn't very urban. It's a "live in a crap apartment while you're a student, buy a house when you're a grown-up" kind of place. Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! That's how my city is, too. I don't expect every person to be ready for home-ownership by XX age, but the whole roommate thing just perplexes me. I've dated: ALL of these guys have steady full-time jobs with good income. Two are even junior executive level professionals. Of all of them listed above, only one is divorced. The rest never married, so the settlement theory does not apply. Some of these own their own homes, but still have roommates. Weird, eh? Edited by lisac957 2012-05-07 8:42 PM |
2012-05-07 8:57 PM in reply to: #4196160 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Teejaay 2012-05-07 8:57 PM |
2012-05-07 9:49 PM in reply to: #4162190 |
Veteran 311 Irvine, California | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 I'm 32 and own my own home, and I have a roommate. I guess I don't get why it's weird. It's not that I haven't lived alone before, or I can't, but when my mortgage is $900/mo, and I'm getting $700 to rent a room out, why is that bad? I guess part of it is also I haven't been in a real relationship for 5 years, so I really haven't had the need to have a place by myself. I like having a roommate, who will feed my dog so I don't have to come home right after work so I can train, and paying for my mortgage is a huge plus. I will say, though, that when I get in a serious relationship, the roommate goes. Plus, my friend who's my new roommate, just bought a road bike and is starting to train for her first sprint tri later this year. It's nice because we can make sure we eat healthy, get up for training, etc, and we kinda push each other when we need to HTFU and go do a workout. |
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2012-05-07 10:21 PM in reply to: #4196284 |
Elite 3770 | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Ill never be able to afford my own home on my salary. If that's an issue, so be it. My job is noble, my salary is not! |
2012-05-07 10:22 PM in reply to: #4196284 |
Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 djake80 - 2012-05-07 9:49 PM I'm 32 and own my own home, and I have a roommate. I guess I don't get why it's weird. It's not that I haven't lived alone before, or I can't, but when my mortgage is $900/mo, and I'm getting $700 to rent a room out, why is that bad? I guess part of it is also I haven't been in a real relationship for 5 years, so I really haven't had the need to have a place by myself. I like having a roommate, who will feed my dog so I don't have to come home right after work so I can train, and paying for my mortgage is a huge plus. I will say, though, that when I get in a serious relationship, the roommate goes. Plus, my friend who's my new roommate, just bought a road bike and is starting to train for her first sprint tri later this year. It's nice because we can make sure we eat healthy, get up for training, etc, and we kinda push each other when we need to HTFU and go do a workout. I was hoping someone would chime in who fit the bill - thanks for your insight. I am assuming from your pic you are a guy and your roommate is a gal? Are you both heterosexual? Do either of you date? I am super curious about that dynamic. Also what part of the country do you live in? This may be a regional or size of city thing? I'm not closed to the idea of dating someone with a roommate (obviously... look at my list ). But the impression I get from those I have dated (not you) in that situation is they are not quite ready to be a grown up - in more ways than one - not just financially. |
2012-05-07 11:26 PM in reply to: #4196197 |
Master 1924 Denver | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Teejaay - 2012-05-07 7:57 PM lisac957 - 2012-05-07 6:37 PM DeannaS - 2012-05-07 6:23 PM BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-05-07 6:13 PM Geez. You're making me sound all mean and nasty. :P Just my personal experience so far, that's all. Madison isn't very urban. It's a "live in a crap apartment while you're a student, buy a house when you're a grown-up" kind of place. Some of us are still helping pay for those homes, too And what if you live in an urban area where most people are apartment dwellers? One can only wonder how she feels about condos! That's how my city is, too. I don't expect every person to be ready for home-ownership by XX age, but the whole roommate thing just perplexes me. I've dated: ALL of these guys have steady full-time jobs with good income. Two are even junior executive level professionals. Of all of them listed above, only one is divorced. The rest never married, so the settlement theory does not apply. Some of these own their own homes, but still have roommates. Weird, eh? I'm in a different age range BUT ... if I was in my 30's I would find it odd. I moved out of the house my senior year in HS .. I had a roommate for 1 year and since have always lived alone (except for the 18 years of marriage). Since my divorce I have lived alone in a house that I bought. I like my privacy. I like my independence. I know there are circumstances where people have to have roommates .. but for me at this age and stage in life .. I'd prefer they have their own "pad". They don't have to own something but living alone (or with their kids) is a plus for me.
I have a very similar view (and experience) to TJ, just 12 years married, not 18... |
2012-05-08 10:20 AM in reply to: #4196333 |
Veteran 311 Irvine, California | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 lisac957 - 2012-05-07 8:22 PM djake80 - 2012-05-07 9:49 PM I'm 32 and own my own home, and I have a roommate. I guess I don't get why it's weird. It's not that I haven't lived alone before, or I can't, but when my mortgage is $900/mo, and I'm getting $700 to rent a room out, why is that bad? I guess part of it is also I haven't been in a real relationship for 5 years, so I really haven't had the need to have a place by myself. I like having a roommate, who will feed my dog so I don't have to come home right after work so I can train, and paying for my mortgage is a huge plus. I will say, though, that when I get in a serious relationship, the roommate goes. Plus, my friend who's my new roommate, just bought a road bike and is starting to train for her first sprint tri later this year. It's nice because we can make sure we eat healthy, get up for training, etc, and we kinda push each other when we need to HTFU and go do a workout. I was hoping someone would chime in who fit the bill - thanks for your insight. I am assuming from your pic you are a guy and your roommate is a gal? Are you both heterosexual? Do either of you date? I am super curious about that dynamic. Also what part of the country do you live in? This may be a regional or size of city thing? I'm not closed to the idea of dating someone with a roommate (obviously... look at my list ). But the impression I get from those I have dated (not you) in that situation is they are not quite ready to be a grown up - in more ways than one - not just financially. Yes lol I'm a guy and my roommate is a girl. I'm single, and she has a boyfriend, and yes, I do date and I'm straight. I live in Arizona, but I moved here from Chicago about 2 1/2 years ago, and actually most of my friends there had roommates too. I've never had a problem with dating a girl and having a female roommate, but I also make sure that my roommate and I have an understanding. If I bring back a date and make dinner and want to watch a movie or talk, she goes up to the loft or her bedroom, and vice versa. Or I'll go to the gym, or bring my pup to the dog park for awhile. Also, I make sure that I introduce a girl I'm dating to my roommate, mostly have a group go out to dinner or something, so she can see that we're JUST friends and nothing more. I completely understand the "not grown up" part of having roommates. That's not why I have one, but my first roommate when I bought my house was, and still is, not ready to get past the college-party mind frame. Needless to say, although we're still great friends, he lives elsewhere now. He wanted to have a roommate so he had somebody to party with ALL the time, and he wanted my house to be a "bachelor pad." I want neither. |
2012-05-08 10:20 AM in reply to: #4195558 |
Member 58 Las Vegas | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 lisac957 - 2012-05-07 1:18 PM Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. They all have roommates - whether it be a buddy, a co-worker, or a family member, none of them just have a place of their own. Is this common with 30-something males, or just a coincidence in the ones I've dated? Are they being smart with their money? Maybe they're social creatures? Or perhaps still living in a college-style mindset (which is the impression I get from most). Maybe it's because I have lived alone and owned my own house for 7 years, but part of me is a bit leery of dating a guy who hasn't ever lived on his own or had to pay bills independent of anyone else. It's not a deal breaker by any means, just something I realized the other day. Discuss.
Hey Lisa... I'm 32, bought a house a couple years ago, own 2 cars, 4 bikes, a 4 Wheeler, and I live alone... I wish I had a roommate, just not a guy! haha. |
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2012-05-08 3:35 PM in reply to: #4195558 |
Veteran 178 , New York | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 lisac957 - 2012-05-07 4:18 PM Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. They all have roommates - whether it be a buddy, a co-worker, or a family member, none of them just have a place of their own. Is this common with 30-something males, or just a coincidence in the ones I've dated? Are they being smart with their money? Maybe they're social creatures? Or perhaps still living in a college-style mindset (which is the impression I get from most). Maybe it's because I have lived alone and owned my own house for 7 years, but part of me is a bit leery of dating a guy who hasn't ever lived on his own or had to pay bills independent of anyone else. It's not a deal breaker by any means, just something I realized the other day. Discuss. Although I'm also in a different age range, I don't think I would find it that strange. I think it's a tough economy and it can make financial sense. I'm a grad student and I know many grad students that are in their 30's that still live with roommates. Now as long as they're not still living with their parents I'm fine... |
2012-05-08 5:13 PM in reply to: #4198160 |
Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 elrasc06 - 2012-05-08 3:35 PM lisac957 - 2012-05-07 4:18 PM Question for the single guys. Something I've noted with the past... MANY guys I've dated. None of them live alone. They all have roommates - whether it be a buddy, a co-worker, or a family member, none of them just have a place of their own. Is this common with 30-something males, or just a coincidence in the ones I've dated? Are they being smart with their money? Maybe they're social creatures? Or perhaps still living in a college-style mindset (which is the impression I get from most). Maybe it's because I have lived alone and owned my own house for 7 years, but part of me is a bit leery of dating a guy who hasn't ever lived on his own or had to pay bills independent of anyone else. It's not a deal breaker by any means, just something I realized the other day. Discuss. Although I'm also in a different age range, I don't think I would find it that strange. I think it's a tough economy and it can make financial sense. I'm a grad student and I know many grad students that are in their 30's that still live with roommates. Now as long as they're not still living with their parents I'm fine... Hmm. I don't know. I think in a city like New York or London it would be pretty common because it is terribly expensive to live. The cost of living in Chicago, where I'm at now, isn't so prohibitive that people are forced to bunk up. In Wichita I can't imagine it's so pricey that they can't live on their own. And if I recall, Lisa, the guys you date are pretty darned successful, am I right? |
2012-05-09 10:20 PM in reply to: #4196333 |
Veteran 549 | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Lisa- I have not had a roommate since I was 22. I lived in apartments alone and eventually purchased houses and lived alone. For me personally, it has always been about independence, not about my financial situation. I also am probably more private than the average person. Perhaps the men you have dated are just more social. For me, have to have my quiet time! |
2012-05-10 10:00 AM in reply to: #4195558 |
Member 89 Austin, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Triathlon Dating Thread Ver 2.0 Here's one I haven't seen yet: I (26) live with my sister (28). Granted, it's temporary (1 year) and for a very good reason...but still a little odd, I realize. |
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